You are here: Home » General » An LG&M podcast: Steven Attewell & A VERY SPECIAL GUEST discuss spoilers in Game of Thrones, “The Climb”
As promised, here Steven discusses all those moments he bit his tongue on during the previous podcast with A VERY SPECIAL GUEST. You won’t want to miss this! Enjoy!
Because you know you’re spoiling for 31 minutes of white-hot speculation (.mp3).
Our very civilized discussion of the premiere (S03E01).
Fancy-talking about “Dark Wings, Dark Words” (S03E02).
Here we are blathering on about “Walk of Punishment” (S03E03).
Don’t watch — because you can’t — us discuss “And Now His Watch Has Ended” (S03E04).
The rudely interrupted first half of our discussion of “Kissed by Fire” (S03E05).
The second half of our discussion of religion in “Kissed by Fire” (S03E05).
In which we discuss “The Climb” sans spoilers (S03E06).
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You know, I bet more people would be commenting if we hadn’t stuck “spoilers” in the title. Sure, they’d be disappointed, but still.
Where the book readers at?
Methinks we provided too much content too quickly. Fine then, we’ll just wait until November to discuss tonight’s episode then. That’ll teach ’em!
Much of what Cersei does can be attributed to her desire to be Jaime. Tyrion as well. And much of their relationship is based upon a competition to be something they can’t; the heir apparent. Tyrion eventually recognizes this in an unconscious, rage-filled moment and escapes, literally and figuratively, but the manner of his escape keeps Cersei trapped. And she’ll likely remain trapped until she’s dead.
Side note: I’m wondering if they’re going to squeeze in the Royal Wedding in the last episode of this season or wait until next season. Would make a decent climax to a season that’s otherwise going to end on several really down notes.
Much of what Cersei does can be attributed to her desire to be Jaime.
To be Tywin. Tyrion too.
As pointed out by Gemma, Kevan doesn’t try to be his brother and is quite happy with it.
All of them want recognition from Tywin, but I doubt any of them want to be him. Jaime certainly doesn’t. He’s lived his life actively avoiding all the obligations put on him by his status as first-born son.
But Cersei covets what Jaime has, and so does Tyrion. This is why Cersei and Tyrion are consistently at one another’s throat while still having an emotional attachment to Jaime (unhealthily so for Cersei); he’s who they both want to be, but they can’t, so they take out their frustrations on one another.
Tyrion and Cersei. Jaime is different:
“That boy had wanted to be Ser Arthur Dayne, but someplace along the way he had become the Smiling Knight instead”
I think she wanted to be raised like Jaime, and there was always a narcissistic element inherent in the whole twin thing, but somewhere down the road Cersei saw herself more in father’s mode (the whole “Jaime’s not serious” thing).
I think she wanted to be raised like Jaime
The same thing, really. How Jaime was raised is part and parcel of who he is, which is his father’s first-born son. And that’s what Cersei wants to be.
somewhere down the road Cersei saw herself more in father’s mode (the whole “Jaime’s not serious” thing).
Because Jaime isn’t serious. And both Cersei and Jaime (and Tyrion) knows he’s not serious. And Tywin doesn’t give a shit if Jaime is serious or not.
I wish Martin elaborated more in the books on the series of events that resulted in Jaime joining the Kingsguard (at some point he remembers Cersei suggesting that he join and Tywin being furious about it), but I think that typifies Jaime’s relationship with Tywin; this is a guy who literally tried to disinherit himself. And Tywin doesn’t care. Jaime is still the heir to Casterly Rock, because the rules and regulations of the Whitecloaks don’t apply to Tywin.
It’s even more complicated than that. Cersei seduced Jaime into joining the Kingsguard so that he could always be with her at court, and to prevent him from marrying Lysa Tully.
She basically destroyed her father’s ambitions in order to keep her incestuous affair going.
I’m astounded by the Cierce-Robert : Hillary Bill comparison.
I can see a parallel between Bill and Robert – men of large appetite and little self-control using their positions as a means to consort with whores and/or groupies.
But how do you map Cierce, who incestuously cuckolds Robert for years on end, and then is directly complicit in his death, onto Hillary?
Unless I’m totally oblivious to something big, this is so far over the top, it’s in orbit.
It will be interesting to see how the sympathy-through-suffering-thing works out. In Martin’s work EVERYBODY suffers. Not to the extent that Theon does for example, but still . . .
Cierce can never be sympathetic, because we know her too well. Theon, maybe, because we’re getting to know him much more intimately while he suffers, and witnessing it all far too closely. But it’s going to be really hard to cozy up to someone who murdered innocent children in cold blood – unless that simply gets forgotten over time. In the book, he even had his way with the mother of those boys. Beneath the suffering, there is nothing about Theon to like, even a little. He’s a sociopath.
Arya’s life has been a slog though a sewer – like Jon, she was an outcast in her own home – but she had us at “Hello.”
It’s not direct, it’s out of its historical context at this moment, but the idea is that both are unusually powerful women using their powerful in unconventional, un-First-Lady-like ways, as per Clinton’s support of health care instead of the normal First Lady roles (keeping children off drugs, in school, reading, and thin and healthy). The idea is that Clinton makes Cersei seem more sympathetic, because her real-world equivalent was being hounded on all sides, from her own bedroom to through the halls of Congress and across these Great United States of conservative radio.
I hear ya, but for me, this is a reach too far.
I’m reticent to do any theological mapping, but here I go:
The question of suffering, the Many-Faced God of the Faceless Men of Braavos, and Arya’s point that the one true god is death, seems almost Hindu. Both Hinduism and Buddhism share the idea that the point of living is to reduce or free oneself/others from suffering. The three main Hindu deities are Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, which are three aspects (faces) of existence — creation, preservation, and death/transformation. Brahma is also characterized as having four faces, and Shiva as having three faces.
Freeing oneself/others from suffering seems to be one of the driving motivators of the narrative, both on a character level and large-scale. And given the time period that’s coming in the novel (winter is coming), that seems to signify the third stage of existence, death/transformation — which would be characterized by Shiva, the god of death and transformation, or the Many-Faced God (the Faceless Men are all about transformation).
That’s probably too neat a mapping, but the story offers plenty of invitations to religious cartography: the Children of the Forest worship the Old Gods, which seems to echo the kind of naturalistic paganism seen in old Celtic and Native American cultures.
The First Men brought in the Seven, which although not monotheistic, shares some elements with Catholicism (monasteries, monks/nuns, a synergistic relationship with royalty, and some Protestants would say Catholicism just turned idol-worship into saint veneration, so it’s not true monotheism).
You get a step towards “monotheism” (really Manichaeaism) with the Drowned God and R’hllor, but I don’t know how neatly those map onto other monotheistic traditions. (For the sake of argument I’m saying monotheism, but really, Christianity and Islam are fairly Manichean, given how they pit good/god vs. evil/hell/Satan/Shaitan/Iblis. I don’t wish to invite any theological debates about that; functionally, that’s how most followers see the traditions.) R’hllor is the Lord of Light, which seems like you’re getting towards something like a Yahweh figure, but it also recalls Lucifer (Light-Bringer), making R’hllor a fallen angel, whose opposite is the Great Other (which could also be the Many-Faced God of Braavos).
The Drowned God (Poseidon, Ægir, Lir) is pitted against the Storm God (Zeus, Thor, Taranis), and presents an interesting inversion. Storm gods generally win out in our history, but it’s the sea god that wins out with the Ironborn. The Iron Islands more or less are the equivalent of the Celtic Fringe of Westeros, and in the Celtic mythology (at least Irish/Welsh), the sea god Lir seems to be more important than the thunder god Taranis; the Children of Lir is one of the more prominent stories in the Irish mythological cycle, and marks the last people on the island before the Gaels arrived. In this mapping (such as it is), the Children of Lir would recall the Children of the Forest, and the Ironborn who displaced them would recall the Gaels.
That’s more than enough religious mumbo-jumbo for now. I’ll just end this by noting that the Many-Faced God seems to encompass all the other faiths, and the same could be said of Brahma-Vishnu-Shiva.
Crom count the dead.
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