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Rage against the machine

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Following up on yesterday’s post regarding the popular vote:

(1) The LA Times reports this morning that more than 4.3 million California ballots are yet to be counted.  If the current 62/33 split between Clinton and Trump holds, that’s another 1.3 million net votes for Clinton.  She already has a 350K lead in the official national count, so a final margin somewhere between 1.5 and 2 million seems likely.

(2) In my younger and more vulnerable years I remember quite distinctly that the possibility of a candidate winning the EC while losing the popular vote was talked about as if it were a potential political problem of the first order, perhaps even rising to the level of a constitutional crisis. So why is this outcome now considered just one of those things/those are the rules/wisdom of the framers or whatever, besides the always applicable principle that IOKIYAR?

Keep in mind that prior to 2000 something like this hadn’t happened since the 19th century, at a time when the large majority of the US adult population was disenfranchised anyway. Then we got Bush v. Gore, in which the candidate who won the popular vote had the EC stolen from him by the Rule of Law, as manifested by the Federalist Society’s Strict Constructionist Supreme Court (Seriously fuck all these people.  Since I’m supposed to be a prissy law professor I’m not supposed to swear in public, but I’m going to make an exception for at least the next four years, along with exceptions to other rules, like don’t drink before 10 AM. Just kidding/not kidding).

One of the under-rated invidious effects of the 2000 election is that it was so supremely fucked up in so many ways that people sort of rolled with the “losing” candidate winning the popular vote, or at least it didn’t get nearly the attention it would have if not for all the other shenanigans.

Anyway, if not for Antonin Scalia’s band of merry pranksters this present catastrophe, in which the losing candidate is going to get well north of a million more votes than the winner, would probably resonate more with the public as being the travesty of basic democratic values that it in fact represents.

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  • howard

    just before the 2000 election, when it looked possible for bush to win the popular vote and gore to win the electoral, we had all the usual nutjobs moaning about exactly how wrong and undemocratic that would be.

    we haven’t heard a syllable since election eve, 2000.

    meanwhile, i actually wonder how many people are aware the clinton won the popular vote?

    • Gregor Sansa

      I not only wonder how many people are aware; I wonder how many of them are in red states and how many in blue.

      Clinton states, plus ME and NE, plus 1 big state like Texas, is enough to get NPVIC running. It’s advantageous for Texas, as the EC hurts big states. Not that I expect the Rs to care about the interests of Texas, but one can dream.

      • Davis X. Machina

        Chances are it would pass in Maine.

        Ranked-choice voting in state elections just won by referendum here.

        • NeonTrotsky

          Probably Paul LePage got elected because of ticket splitting

      • Charlie S

        Reince “Piece of Shit” Priebus claimed on “Good Morning America” today that Trump “won the election overwhelmingly.” When it was pointed out he’s actually behind on the popular vote he hemmed and hawed marvelously.

        • vic rattlehead

          What a contemptible little bootlicker.

          • efgoldman

            What a contemptible little bootlicker.

            He’ll also be out of a job in a couple of weeks.

    • Kurzleg

      meanwhile, i actually wonder how many people are aware the clinton won the popular vote?

      Especially with inexplicably misleading graphics like this.

      BTW, at the bottom of that graphic there’s a link for feedback. I’ve sent a couple asking why Trump is highlighted on the popular vote tab as if he’d won it. Maybe others can do the same?

    • Manny Kant

      On election night in 2012, when they called it for Obama while Romney was still ahead in the popular vote because most of the California votes hadn’t come in yet, Trump went crazy on Twitter about how unjust the electoral college was.

      • howard

        yes, that is one of the merely ironic rather then terrifying outcomes here.

        • ThrottleJockey

          Thanks for reminding me of that. History is ironic. The links to his Twitters are funny in retrospect.

          http://mashable.com/2012/11/06/trump-reacts-to-election/#NGvKL0YhOkqA

          • vic rattlehead

            I just can’t find it funny anymore. Trump is not a joke anymore and hasn’t been for a long time now. Maybe if more people had seen that this wouldn’t have happened. Not that I’m accusing you of anything.

            It was horrifying but mildly amusing to me when he was scooting his bare ass across the Republican Party. Although it was clear even then who he was and the media treated it as entertainment. Now he’s going to scoot his bare ass over the rest of us.

            • howard

              after several days of reflection – and who knows if this is where i’ll ultimately end up – i have to say that the thing i find most distressing, in the end, is how easy it was.

              as i’ve said to a lot of people, as an american jew, i have “it can happen here” bred into me (germany was a very civilized country), but to witness the rapidity with which anger and hatred can extinguish hard-established norms is very difficult to process: we see how easily authoritarianism can come knocking.

              • CP

                Yep. This was one of the many things (obviously not the main one) that made the Holocaust as much of a shock as it was: Germany had a pretty good record with its Jewish population, certainly compared with France or Russia.

                The point that’s become more and more clear to me over the course of this year is just how much the pogroms against minorities are a matter not only of a loud and racist minority, but a majority simply not giving a shit. The millions of exhortations going around to be understanding of Trump voters and certainly don’t call them racist is making the point quite nicely.

                • Germany had a pretty good record with its Jewish population, certainly compared with France or Russia.

                  This is . . . not quite true. France granted full civil rights to Jews with Napoleon. Germany did only slowly and grudgingly, and well into the 20th century was still trying to find a public ideology that was compatible with liberal pluralism.

                • LeeEsq

                  Its complicated. France emancipated the Jews much earlier than the German states but the Jews of Germany acculturated much more into German culture than any other Jewish group acculturated into other cultures. There wasn’t anything like the Dreyfus Affair during the Kaiserreich and German Jews enthusiastically participated in World War I.

              • vic rattlehead

                It seems to me that political norms are kind of like trust in interpersonal relationships. Takes a long long time to build and an instant to shatter. I think when we reflect back on this moment in a decade or two, a lot of people will marvel about how easy it was to shatter American democracy. But of course-law is the weakest form of social control, and mere norms are even weaker. All it takes is a strongman.

                Our democracy is not rule by consent of the governed. It’s rule by consent of the sociopaths. And they just revoked their consent.

            • CP

              It was horrifying but mildly amusing to me when he was scooting his bare ass across the Republican Party. Although it was clear even then who he was and the media treated it as entertainment. Now he’s going to scoot his bare ass over the rest of us.

              The thing about the GOP was that the “Trump, totally different candidate!” narrative pushed by everyone obfuscated the fact that he was really not far out of line with them. A lot of the things we’re dreading right now would’ve happened no matter who the next Republican president was, probably including a major uptick in the white backlash politics, certainly including the vote suppression and ACA repeal.

              It’s not that I was happy to see him win, but I kept in perspective that the entire goddamn field was utterly horrifying, and that not one of these people wouldn’t have been a catastrophe if elected. (That, and when he disagreed with them, he was as often correct as not. “I would’ve still invaded Iraq even knowing then what I know now,” anyone?)

              • howard

                well, i will say this: of the entire gop field, i’m not sure that trump isn’t the guy least likely to be proud of “ended medicare.”

                i think the ryan remarks haven’t gotten much attention yet, but when they do, i actually am curious to see how this particular one plays out.

                • Kathleen

                  This.

  • Gregor Sansa

    National popular vote interstate compact.

    Using approval voting in as many states as possible. (It’s still compatible with the NPVIC, as written).

    Or even better, using PAR voting. (Still arguably compatible, though best if the NPVIC was clarified in this case.)

    • ochospantalones

      I support a national popular vote constitutional amendment, but I don’t trust the interstate compact. Republicans would find a way to ratfuck it if it ever came into play against them. Keep in mind there is no legal way (short of a constitutional amendment) to bind the electors to actually vote in accordance with the rules of the NPV agreement. So between Republican state-legislatures having the authority to chose the slates of electors themselves and Roberts’ wheel of newly discovered doctrine there is just way too much room for things to go wrong.

  • prplmnkydw

    Yes, this. I am tired of the defense of our crappy institutions.

    • Dilan Esper

      I am too. We have way too much worship for institutions that were created by people whose foremost desire was ensuring they would get to continue raping their slaves.

      But that was part of the point of my post that Paul criticized so much. If we are using this to change the system, that’s great. But if we are just going to use this as proof for 4 years that Trump is illegitimate, no, he isn’t illegitimate. The popular vote is affected by campaign strategies and is not the same as an actual plebiscite.

      • trollhattan

        Not only does Trump warrant “illegitimate” flung at him (for myriad reasons other than the popular vote) he earned it through his toxic and evil birth certificate campaign against President Obama.

        That it makes you squirm indicates your uncomfortable sense of its accuracy.

  • It doesn’t matter. I’ve been trying to find some upside to this, but there is none. France will likely fall next, the Republicans will successfully twist the machinery to stay in power forever, liberal democracy will continue to die as we sell the rest of it off for more cheap TVs and cell phones, and Trumpco will so further inflame anti-American sentiment that the rest of the world will rally behind the Chinese as the saviors of humanity.

    So yeah. We can smugly say that we won the popular vote, but the rest will soon be history.

    • David Hunt

      This was how I felt after teh 2004 election. Things got better. I’m not saying that’s going to just magically happen here. There was a lot of work that went into taking Congress and then the White House back from the GOP. There will be hard times ahead. We need to all endeavor to be people future generations will be proud of.

      • After a couple of days to process this, I’m thinking that the only way you’re going to be a person future people will be proud of is to do what seemed laughable and extreme just a few days ago: figure out a way to save yourself.

      • vic rattlehead

        Were there massive voter suppression efforts on the scale we’re seeing after 2004? That’s not a rhetorical question, I wasn’t very politically aware back then and am wondering.

        There are only so many times we can survive a W level administration. Relying on being able to get an Obama in just to be able to tread water for a while before another republican asshole gets in and wrecks the place yet again is going to stop working I think. I hope I’m wrong but I think we might have crossed the rubicon with this election. If people of color are almost entirely disenfranchised, and the courts essentially repeal the 20th century, what then? Decades and decades of people braver than myself struggling and dying down the drain. Back to square one. Back to the what 1920s status quo. And that’s before we even get to climate change.

        I made the mistake of rewatching Children of Men recently. I think we might end up looking back at that as a best case scenario-a functional albeit repressive government still remaining? Ha!

        I’m not trying to bring anybody down here I am just like many many people in a very bad place.

        • Paul Campos

          A W level administration would be an almost fantastical best case scenario at this point. And that’s still true even if you consider W the worst president in US history.

          We haven’t even begun to wrap our heads around how bad this really is (although looking at Trump’s likely cabinet is a form of extremely painful reality therapy in this regard).

          • Yeah, I was having a flash back to 2001, when I couldn’t believe that smirking chimp won, and 2004 when I couldn’t believe that the electorate fell for smirking chimp again. Now I look at Bush and he’s a cool statesman in comparison.

            I feel that we are all going to look back fondly on the Bush years. And that’s sad. Really sad.

        • SatanicPanic

          We used to be worse. I mean, going back to the 1920s is terrible, but that was still an improvement over the 1820s, and this time the islands of sanity in this country are bigger. Let’s not give up all hope yet.

          • (((42)))

            This seems like a moment to point out that liberal democracy and liberal policy are thriving in California. Nobody cares about federalism, but we’re about to have a fight about federalism.

            • vic rattlehead

              Pointing out the hypocrisy when Ghouliani’s justice department comes down like a hammer on California is going to do nothing though. But jerry brown is pretty tough I guess.

              • (((42)))

                We’re pretty tough, and there are a lot of us. It will be a fight, and we may lose more than we win. But there are dozens of fronts on which CA (and any other state that wishes to join us) can push the limits of state authority, and ways communities can protect ourselves and each other inside and outside the law. We won’t lose on all of them.

              • random

                There is no option to play hardball with CA.

            • Yep. It might be time to stop thinking about what it means to be American and figure out what it means to be a Californian. Or, in my case, a New Yorker.

              • (((42)))

                That’s exactly right. I don’t like the idea of turning away from vulnerable people in the rest of the country, but I’ve got 1 in 8 Americans right here for whom we can do so good. It seems like a reasonable allocation of energy.

                Or at least a way to feel OK right now.

                • SatanicPanic

                  I don’t think of it as turning away if we’re offering hope for a better place. It’s not like we’re going to build a wall. We can’t promise cheap housing. Maybe that’s something we can work on though.

                • The Dark God of Time

                  I dunno about cheap housing, but my brother-in-law in Bakersfield, which has been hit pretty hard by the downturn in the oil business, is moving to work in North Dakota. He expects the house to be sold in 90 days or so.

            • Rob in CT

              Do you realize where that subsidization goes?

              A lot of it goes to help needy people who, absent that subsidization, would be even more fucked than they are now.

              I get the appeal of this, but it’s misdirected.

              You’re not going to hurt the people you’re trying to hurt much. You will hurt vulnerable people who probably mostly voted Dem a lot.

          • ThrottleJockey

            Speak for yourself.

            In 1920 there were 61 documented lynchings. Of these 53 were black.

            • SatanicPanic

              Absolutely, I’m not suggesting 1920 was a good time. Just trying to keep some hope alive.

              • ThrottleJockey

                Keep Hope Alive…Alright, Jesse Jackson, preach, brotha, preach!!! :-D

                Sorry for being so thin skinned in my comment. My bad, Satan.

                • SatanicPanic

                  It’s cool, we’re all in this together.

        • CP

          Were there massive voter suppression efforts on the scale we’re seeing after 2004?

          No. Not systematic, out in the open, and as a primary goal of the GOP. There were still individual shenanigans, like the thing that really threw the election to Bush (an “accidental” purge of a bunch of black Floridians from the voter lists when they were “misidentified” as felons). But actual attempts to enshrine policies that would suppress voter turnout into law, like we’re seeing today? Not a thing. (Why should it have been? The country was still a lot whiter and with their outreach to conservative Hispanics, Bush/Rove had good reason to think the demographic changes were manageable).

          None of that is the case today – and they’ve taken the effort national with the gutting of the Voting Rights Act. I think we’re about to see a very major push to enshrine as many legal hurdles as possible to voting for poor and disenfranchised demographics. With a Republican Supreme Court backing them, the consequences for that will last decades.

          Furthermore, this:

          There are only so many times we can survive a W level administration. Relying on being able to get an Obama in just to be able to tread water for a while before another republican asshole gets in and wrecks the place yet again is going to stop working I think.

          And it won’t just be a W level administration. Every period of Republican presidential rule since the sixties has taken a level up in bad from the previous one. You’re about to see it again. I suppose Trump could rule so incompetently that he and his party just completely burn out and self-destruct, but that’s not something I’d count on. Not until they’ve had time to make a lot of terrible changes.

          • ThrottleJockey

            You’re assuming, optimistically, that after he burns out he gives up power. The man emulates Putin for a reason & its not his hair.

            • Lit3Bolt

              Eh, he’s the oldest man to assume the Presidency. He’ll be 74 in 2020, 2024 he’ll be 78. I’m assuming he’ll want to retire to his Penthouse to continue raping young models and screaming at his children.

              Over/under we’ll see a divorce in the White House in the next few years?

              • vic rattlehead

                Also he’s getting to an age where your physical and mental health can decline quickly.

                • efgoldman

                  he’s getting to an age where your physical and mental health can decline quickly.

                  Even though he’s gonna’ delegate every single thing he can, the presidency is an incredibly high stress job. He can’t take Trump 1 back to Manhattan every night. I wonder how he’ll stand it. Stroke waiting to happen.

        • TopsyJane

          Adding to this that at least W was a “normal” candidate. The country just sent a manifestly irresponsible, ignorant, dishonest, racist, inexperienced, sleazy, [your adjectives here] sex offender into the White House. All bets are off. It’s now official: anything can happen.

          And the worst part of it all is that Trump’s instability is all we can pin our hopes to. If for whatever reason he leaves office, there’s Pence and Ryan, solid ideologues, waiting in line. Utter catastrophe.

          • sapient

            You forgot that he is also a Russian toadie. I wish the press would cover this more, even now. Or where’s the FBI report?

            • vic rattlehead

              My own father (who voted for Johnson in Florida…believe me I tried to get him to vote Clinton) said that the Russian connections are “probably exaggerated.” Plus look how cozy Clinton is with blah blah blah.

              He’s not alone. Millions of people are going to plug their ears up and go “But Clinton bad too emails Benghazi lalalalala cant hear you.”

            • CP

              The few friends I have who work in the national security sector and went for either Trump or third-party are people I wanted to throttle over this. All of them went the “well, if I did that with the emails, I’d have been fired! Hmpfh!” route.

              … while completely ignoring, or not considering it worthy of maybe a little more concern, that the other candidate was literally shilling for Putin while threatening to abandon NATO allies. But I’m supposed to believe their vote is influenced by Deep Concern over national security. Right.

          • erick

            Also when Bush came into office there were still some old school moderate republican senators.

            Paul Ryan has already said Medicare is gone as part of overturning ACA. Does anyone see 3 sane republican Senators to stop that?

      • Origami Isopod

        Things got better.

        … after a lot of people died.

        • N__B

          You can’t make a shit omelette without ripping open a lot of bowels.

    • jamesepowell

      I want to disagree with you, but I see, in the long term, the same things. What I also see & lament is that the great mass of Americans don’t give a shit about liberal democracy.

      • They will when it’s gone, and they won’t even know it, because the by then the Republicans will have successfully branded it as evil communism perpetuated by a liberal elite who was trying to shove political correctness down everyone’s throat.

        • CP

          To the extent that they’ll miss it when it’s gone, they’ll blame it on blacks, immigrants, and rootless cosmopolitans in their fancy big cities on the coasts. And vote in the people in charge for another round.

      • Brad Nailer

        I work with a couple of people who consider liberalism to be the root of all problems suffered by humanity today. One of them is a woman who gets paid the same as her male counterparts and they both are employees who get paid time-and-a-half if they run over 40 hours in a week.

        Yeah, fuckin’ liberals.

        • Those are the benefits you get when you show the authoritarians you think they're swell. Employees who are liberals only get the standard package.

    • ThrottleJockey

      To paraphrase my president, ‘Don’t cry, organize.’

      • vic rattlehead

        Yeah. Also. I felt like a child a few hours ago doing this, and it may sound silly, but I was feeling helpless and it made me feel a little better to draft a letter to Obama. Telling him that for what it’s worth I have his back and I can’t imagine how he must feel too and oh god please help us. Won’t do a damn thing but it was therapeutic.

        • Good for you. We’re all going to need lots of therapy going forward.

          • vic rattlehead

            Thanks. And God dammit I thought I had a handle on it but I just broke down again in a coffee shop thinking about this. Fuck.

            • ThrottleJockey

              Sorry to hear that, Vic, and insensitive of me to comment how I did. You mentioned writing a letter to Obama, and I’ve had friends share stories of writing letters to Hill. I also came across this story about a supporter randomly coming across her yesterday. Hope its encouraging.

              http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/national-international/NY-Woman-Goes-for-a-Hike-to-Relax-Runs-Into-Hillary-Clinton-400757851.html

              • vic rattlehead

                I appreciate the sentiment but you don’t have to apologize for anything. I didn’t get the impression that you were being insensitive.

                (assuming you’re referring to your “don’t cry, organize” comment. That was a great quote. I was just adding my two cents, wasn’t bothered at all).

      • Dr. Ronnie James, DO

        Exactly – Trump is the apotheosis of the GOP’s retreat into a smaller whiter older more extreme voter base, and they won by tilting the playing field as much as it can be tilted.

        But in the long run, we’ve still got the numbers, and they’ll get better each year (as someone recently pointed out, the GOP has won the popular vote st like once in the last quarter century)If we can match or exceed their efforts at turnout, re-emphasize local elections, and counter gerrymandering (Obama/ Holder’s next phase seems prescient now), we can wipe themselves off the map.

        2017 will be bleak. But ’89 was bleak. ’05 was bleak, too. And 3 short years later, the assholes were out of power, beaten by leaders we barely were aware of at the time.

        • efgoldman

          If we can match or exceed their efforts at turnout, re-emphasize local elections, and counter gerrymandering (Obama/ Holder’s next phase seems prescient now), we can wipe themselves off the map.

          I hate to say it, but we need to use the Republiklowns as an example and follow their path to success in two ways:

          1) Ground up instead of top down organizing. Put up candidates for every school board, sewer authority, alderman, town council, county boards, whatever. It’s a long haul, requires lots of patience and acceptance of defeat, but it works.

          2) Messaging. Someone needs to be calling a press conference every day with a very simple message: Orange Shitweasel, Granny Starver, and their Republiklown colleagues want to take away your/granny’s social security/medicare/ACA benefits(*). Buy ad time, run TV commercials, buy ad space. It works. Again. it’s a very long haul, but remember W’s 2005 social security privatization bill? Never even got out of committee because it was clear there would be electoral consequences.

          These are difficult, long haul things, but they’ve been proven to work.

          (*) Strictly speaking, that’s not what block grants do, but let the other guys play defense and try to explain the difference for a change.

          • Taters

            Strictly speaking, that’s not what block grants do, but let the other guys play defense and try to explain the difference for a change.

            I think this is an important and overlooked point. A 25 point plan on a website is not.going.to.do.it. A simple, strong characterization that the herrenvolk can easily grasp and relalte to. D’s always try to parse the nuances to the public and it is frankly embarrassing to watch.

            • efgoldman

              D’s always try to parse the nuances to the public and it is frankly embarrassing to watch.

              Yup. Dems are basically the opposite of HL Mencken’s (or was it PT Barnum, I can never remember and I don’t feel like looking it up) No-one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
              Hate, spite and fear work. Simplification works. Use the tools that are available.

        • David Hunt

          Your optimism points to where organization needs to take place: fighting vote suppression. It’s not the demographics of the country that need to favor the GOP, it’s the demographics of the people that actually vote.

          If the GOP can make it harder to impossible fro Dem favoring groups to vote, they can still win by leaning on racism and all the other noisome isms

          • erick

            Yep, while a few reps were talking about expanding their appeal to minorities their apparatus was working to gut the voting rights act and suppress democratic voters. And it worked, with less votes than McCain or Romney Trump won.

      • The Dark God of Time

        Coming from the guy who referred to his preferred successor as “Hill”, that is most amusing.

    • LeeEsq

      Total pessimism never works but your right that Trump is the American manifestation of the global phenomenon, the international rise of Right Populism. Its happening across the democratic world, in countries white majority and people of color majority. There doesn’t seem to be a solution in site. My theory is that globalization in all its manifestations is wrecking a lot of havoc intentionally and unintentionally. For many people this is disturbing and confusing. No form of liberalism or leftism has a convincing answer to enough voters. The Right Populists pretend to have answers and go out and win.

      • CP

        I’d believe this if, at least in America, the right-populism phenomenon didn’t go back all the way to the 1960s, well before the devastation wrought by globalization kicked in. Unless by “globalization” you mean the country getting less and less white.

        I don’t know what the solution is either. Until this week I’d have said that the worst, unlikely but worst case scenario was another civil war, with red states deciding to throw a revolution when they realize they can no longer win elections. Now I’m thinking that it’ll instead culminate in a bunch of states halfway between South African apartheid, and late nineteenth/early twentieth century America, where a whole forest of legal and political tricks allowed politicians to disenfranchise enough of the “wrong” voters to stay in power.

        • random

          I don’t see how they pull that off. Even in the reddest states, the major cities are overwhelmingly dominated by people who hate the shit out of them.

          Now having been robbed of their electoral majority, those same people are now past the breaking point and are not going to go quietly. How do you enforce your papers-please immigration law in LA when the mayor of LA was specifically elected to arrest anyone who enforces it?

          Long-term they only end up controlling the countryside where nobody lives.

          • CP

            Doesn’t “president” outrank “mayor?” If the mayor refuses to enforce presidential laws, can’t the president simply pull an Eisenhower and sent in the 82nd Airborne to do it?

      • Dr. Ronnie James, DO

        Which is ironic, because the left was at least somewhat divided on GATT/ NAFTA/ WTO at the time they were being discussed. The right was in lockstep supporting it.

        • xq

          They were not. There was always paleocon opposition.

          • Dr. Ronnie James, DO

            Who? Pat Buchanan?

    • xq

      I don’t think far-right governing parties will survive economic collapse.

      • Look up ‘Kansas’ in the dictionary and then get back to me. I’ll wait.

    • sonamib

      No need to be pessimistic about France yet. My money’s on Juppé winning. He’s favored by a wide margin in the right-wing primaries, and since he’s got a lot of centrist cred, I don’t think socialists will have too much of a problem voting for him against Le Pen. They have proven again and again that they can vote for a moderate right-winger in order to prevent an FN candidate from winning.

      Mind you, I think Juppé will be bad, but only somewhat-worse-than-Hollande bad, not anywhere near Le-Pen-bad.

      • Richard Gadsden

        I have my fingers crossed that PS falls apart. If they cock up badly enough then Mélenchon could consolidate the entire left vote and scrape into second. If that’s against Juppé, it doesn’t matter. But if that’s against Le Pen, then we get to find out whether the moderate right will do their republican duty the way the moderate left did – and Mélenchon as President would be fucking great.

      • CP

        It’s my hope that France will be a scenario where centrist and moderate politics still prove capable of rallying people against fascism, however dilapidated the two “center” parties may be.

        I have to say that Sarkozy, though, has dealt a big blow to my trust in the center right, with his incessant rhetoric of “winning back voters from the FN.” So have the polls I saw a few years ago showing the a majority of then-UMP voters would prefer a coalition with the fascists to one with the center-left. The rise to power of fascist governments always involves collaboration from traditional conservatives, and the story of conservatives being unable to resist the temptation of making that alliance for the sake of their power has occurred so many times that… let’s just say I have real trust issues. Gaullists they ain’t.

  • Lit3Bolt

    I say we go for the irradiated atom vote and the floating ash vote in 2020. Should be a growing demographic.

  • NewishLawyer

    I’m not as dire as C.V. in his or her predictions. He is correct to know that right populism is rising. But nothing lasts forever.

    Though the GOP and small states don’t have any inventive to get rid of the electoral college especially because they finally discovered how to get enough rural votes to switch rust belt states like Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania.

    The Democratic problem is that we are geographically isolated and the GOP knows how to use this to their advantage and they will because they are undecent.

    A big problem with the Democrats is that we generally believe in decency. Our voters want us to collaborate and get along usually (though this might be changing). We also generally don’t redistrict as hard as the Republicans because that would go against the ideals of liberal democracy.

    The indecent will always take advantage of the decent.

    • ThrottleJockey

      Until the decent decide to FIGHT back.

      Don’t Rage against the machine, you unplug it.

    • Karen24

      This is my feeling. Th country is screwed.

    • Dr. Ronnie James, DO

      “The Democratic problem is that we are geographically isolated and the GOP knows how to use this to their advantage and they will because they are undecent.”

      We’ve won the popular vote in every election in recent memory save one.

      We’re not locked in here with them, they’re locked in here with us. If we just counter the ratfucking, their old shrinking white bread base is toast.

      • vic rattlehead

        Yeah-92, 96, 00, 08, 12, 16. And yet…

    • I’m a he ;-)

      A big problem with the Democrats is that we generally believe in decency.

      A big problem with the Democrats is that the electoral college has made us a majority vote rump party. To get to your point, blue flight to the coasts has only made the issue worse. But there it is. The electoral college was designed to limit the power of the voting public, and it worked as intended.

      • efgoldman

        To get to your point, blue flight to the coasts has only made the issue worse. But there it is.

        It’s no immediate help, but I expect the next census will cost MI and the rest of the industrial Midwest seats in congress, and therefore EVs. Of course, they move to the South and Southwest, which creates a different balancing problem.

        • Linnaeus

          A problem that may be worse than the one being “solved”.

        • Karen24

          How many will go to California?

  • sleepyirv

    I also found it strange that while there’s talk Clinton won the popular vote, there hasn’t been screaming over it. A couple theories I came up with:

    – Donald Trump becoming President is so Earth-shattering that all other subjects are being put to the side (so basically like every serious issue when it approaches Trump).
    – The election is an upset, an upset where a lot of people had preconceived reasons why it happened, so they’re writing those articles.
    – Democrats rather spend their time finger-pointing.
    – A “boil the frog” scenario where people are “use” to the electoral college after Florida, and aren’t thinking how insane it is someone with a million extra votes can lose.

    That’s what I got, feel free to add if you have an explanation.

    • Nobdy

      It’s not just that Trump’s election is earth-shattering, it’s also that it’s a great, sexy, story. Racists are happily watching to see what he does. Liberals are watching in horror to see what he does. Everyone is paying rapt attention building those ratings.

      Who wants to disrupt that with a dry boring story about the electoral college of all things. There are tweets about protesters to discuss.

      Not to mention Trump is famously vindictive and keeps talking about how unfair the press is, so people are probably actually intimidated.

      • CP

        It’s not just that Trump’s election is earth-shattering, it’s also that it’s a great, sexy, story.

        This, too. No one ever went broke underestimating the shallowness of the American media.

    • bizarroMike

      These are good. I would add that after 2000, this has become normalized. It’s just the rules of the game, and any idea that majority consent is a part of democracy has been shoved out.

    • jamesepowell

      It’s not the whole explanation, but I argue that a major reason there is no hue and cry is that both Gore and Hillary Clinton are despised and denigrated by the press/media. Anyone raising the popular vote is dismissed as a loser, sour grapes, etc.

    • CrunchyFrog

      The Washington press is basically Republican. No, not Trumphole, frothing at the mouth, redneck Republican, but Personally-Wealthy-and-grew-up-hating-liberals-and-hippies Republican. If you dig into the prominent members of the press you may be astonished that the majority of those who have significant others are paired with Washington GOP politicians and apparatchinks. This didn’t happen by accident – it’s who they’ve been promoting in the news industry for the past 30 years.

      So, although they loathe Trump they are much more comfortable with the people he’s going to bring into power than they would be with Clinton. And of course they personally won’t experience all of the negative consequences of their policies.

      • Davis X. Machina

        This is Josh Marshall’s “Washington is wired for Republicans” axiom.

        • jamesepowell

          I think it’s an accurate description. Evidence is everywhere and mostly in the stories they choose to do and those they choose to ignore.

          Atrios (citing another blogger) mentioned yesterday that he thought it would take three straight Democratic administrations to “unwire” Washington or at least the Beltway Press/Media from the Republicans. I was curious to see if it would work. Now I likely won’t see it in my lifetime.

      • CP

        Yep. Given the choice between fascists and liberals, leftists, or any form of people-across-the-aisle, these people will wring their hands, weep and gnash their teeth, but when pushed to it they’ll side with the fascists. Every, single, time.

      • Taters

        I grew up min the Northern VA suburbs. It’s a Hellgate. They are John Galts who all work for Booz Allen.

    • ASV

      In 2000, it wasn’t just the EC/PV split. It was a 35-day recount and legal battle over one state that would provide the winning margin to whomever was awarded those votes.

      This year there was no drama. Clinton is going to have a much bigger popular vote gap than Gore did, both in raw and percentage terms, but Trump is going to have a much bigger EC gap than Bush did.

    • CP

      Don’t forget that the mainstream media has gone all in on the narrative that this represents a repudiation of the disconnected liberal establishment by the American voters… aided and abetted by not only the screams of from the right, but the whining of the Berniebros for whom that narrative, however false, is convenient. Add the shell shock among Democrats, and you get this.

      • Origami Isopod

        but the whining of the Berniebros for whom that narrative, however false, is convenient.

        Yep. And, just like the mainstream media, the Bernouts would rather have a love-in with the fascist right than hold their noses and vote for Hillary.

        • CP

          Like I’ve said before; the big common point between this election and late era Weimar that made this possible is the number of political factions who remained obsessively focused on fighting their political enemies rather than face the reality that there’s a new shark in the water and what that meant.

          The Democrats (including the vast majority of Sanders supporters) didn’t do this, but they had little choice since they were the first in the shark’s line of fire. The center right, far left, and various too-cool-for-school assholes, on the other hand, made the wrong choice, either by action or indifference.

        • Redwood Rhiadra

          The fucking Bernie fanatics and their push for White Supremacist Socialism is why I had to leave Facebook yesterday.

          • Brad Nailer

            C’mon over to my page. We’re mostly a bunch of nice McGovern Democrats (Anderson High School class of ’69; motto: “Class of ’69 eats out often”) who are of course appalled but who, being McGovern Democrats, have seen the unspeakable and lived to tell the tale. Times change and God knows what the future holds, but we’ve been hurt before and survived. Maybe that history will repeat itself. Plus, a lot of us say “fuck” all the time.

    • rewenzo

      I would add two more:

      1) The working theory behind Trump, and a core belief of his campaign, was that he could only win if he was in fact galvanizing millions of missing white voters who had failed to show up for Republicans before. If Trump could not do that, he would not win, because the Obama coalition was too numerous. Trump won. Therefore, the narrative is that he must have found millions of white votes, and his coalition must be ascendant. That doesn’t jive with “actually he lost the popular vote” so the EC angle is ignored.

      2) It’s not like he turned one “swing state” red, like Florida. He turned most of them red. He eked out tiny majorities in a bunch of states. So it’s harder to say it’s a fluke, because it’s a series of flukes. Additionally swing states aside he turned solid blue states red. Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. How could he have done this, and not won the popular vote? How could so much of the map be red, and he not have won?

      • efgoldman

        How could so much of the map be red, and he not have won?

        Yeah, all those big empty states with three or four EVs. Look at how much bigger WY or MT is compared to RI or VT. Look at how red that map is. Oh, wait, acreage doesn’t vote.
        Yes, I guess people really are that stupid.

      • BiloSagdiyev

        The working theory behind Trump, and a core belief of his campaign, was that he could only win if he was in fact galvanizing millions of missing white voters who had failed to show up for Republicans before.

        Or, having primed their branez with 15+ years of propaganda about how the blah people commit so much voter fraud, he/Ailes got a lot of rural precincts to conjure up fake votes out of thin air, feeling justified that they were just fighting back against Democrat dirty tricks.

        I have no proof, of course. But I’m going to keep this suspicion filed away in the back of my paranoia broom closet, and keep an eye peeled for any murmurs or journalism on the subject in coming years.

        • catclub

          sorry, no. They generated negative votes in the Democratic precincts, which is tougher.

          Voter suppression – of all types – worked, and worked much more on Clinton voters than Trump voters.

      • Remember that Trump’s campaign was explicitly using a strategy of depressing the Democratic vote. It was mostly dismissed when they were talking about it, but no one is really talking about it as a Republican campaign tactic that worked.

      • Additionally swing states aside he turned solid blue states red. Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. How could he have done this, and not won the popular vote?

        At least as far as Michigan and Wisconsin go, those states that are reliably blue in the years of presidential races installed Republican-led state governments, and they enacted vote suppression laws that worked. I can’t find the article, but I read somewhere that about 190,000 fewer people voted in Wayne County (Detroit) than in 2012. And he won Michigan by about 70,000 votes.

        The Republicans have not paid a price for their blatant disenfranchisement of minorities. To the contrary, they have been rewarded. Bigly.

        • Linnaeus

          And he won Michigan by about 70,000 votes.

          Are you referring to Trump here? I thought that vote margin was even smaller: closer to 12,000 or so. Have the numbers been updated?

    • sam

      (I say this as a lifelong New Yorker)

      This is also the problem with some of the (yes) smugness that we get into when New Yorkers (and Californians, and Massachusettsians(?), etc.) talk up how great “our” states are compared to the rest of the country, and how everyone should just move [here].

      Look. I love New York. I’ve lived here my entire life except for a few years when I went to school in Philadelphia, and another brief stint working overseas. I’d never want to leave. Not just because it’s “New York”, but because THIS IS WHERE MY FAMILY IS. I live five blocks from my parents. At the end of the day, I live here because this is HOME. Not because there are fancy museums that I rarely go to or expensive restaurants that I almost never eat at. This is where my JOB is. This is where most of my friends are. This is where I’ve made my life.

      And all of those black/latino/LGBT/muslim/et al. people we dismiss or overlook because they live in red states? They have homes, and families and jobs, and lives that they can’t just uproot at the drop of a hat because some hateful governor has signed an anti-trans bathroom bill, or defunded planned parenthood. And even if many folks WANT to move to NY, who the hell can afford to these days?

      Plus, the more all the liberals move to blue states? that means even LESS democratic voters in the “red” states, and just running up the popular vote in fewer and fewer states. We need to expand, not contract the map.

      • vic rattlehead

        Speaking of New York, I was just on the subway and there was a dude wearing that red MAGA hat. It made me feel better that virtually everyone else who saw it was mean mugging him.

        • sam

          meanwhile, I don’t know if this is going to catch on, but I did pin a safety pin to my coat this morning, and at least three people on my subway broke out of the normal “ignore everyone and everything going on around you” routine to smile and nod at me.

          Maybe it was a complete coincidence.

          • Katya

            I don’t know if it catch on, either, but I’ve got a safety pin on my coat, too.

      • Origami Isopod

        Seriously. “Just pick up and move” is bullshit when libertarians/conservatives spout it, and it’s bullshit when liberals spout it.

        • CP

          Supposedly, the Aryan Nations had a plan to do this back in the eighties. Everybody was supposed to “pick up and leave” and come to a couple northwestern states like Idaho, where there’d be so many of them they’d overwhelm the locals, declare their own nation, and secede from America.

          That plan died in its first stage, when all the Aryan Nations groups living anywhere else said “why should we move to Idaho? You move over here.”

    • Emmryss

      I think it’s because no one knows what an “appropriate” response would be. It’s like Obama meeting with Trump to discuss the transition. Obama, meeting with the man who got his start in politics by spearheading the birther movement, to discuss the transition of power. Well, what else is he going to do? It’s like the Republican primaries, Trump was so far outside the normal box no one knew how to respond. Especially people like Obama, or Hillary, whose whole political lives have been spent inside that box, or what we used to call normality. What do you do when the rules you’ve lived by, and succeeded by, all your life no longer apply? When the world in which they applied no longer exists?

      • vic rattlehead

        I like to think Obama is spending the next several weeks trying to mitigate the damage as much as possible for the good of the nation but realistically what can he do? He’s a lot smarter than me but what can he do?

        • Tom Paine Caucus

          What else Obama could do: maintain his position that Trump is unqualified for office, add that he’s not legitimately elected because he lost the popular vote, and refuse to meet with him.

      • Gareth

        I understand why Barack met with Donald, but not why Michelle met with Melania. One’s a necessary part of the transition, the other is courtesy and symbolism that the Trumps don’t deserve. She can stay in the car. Likewise, there’s a tradition of the outgoing president leaving a helpful and supportive note for the incoming president. Obama shouldn’t do that for Trump.

    • Tom Paine Caucus

      It didn’t help that Clinton and Obama both accepted Trump as the legitimate winner and Obama welcomed him to the White House.

      • Brad Nailer

        So Obama/Clinton were supposed to challenge the election results? Do the math, man: 290 is 290, and until the Constitution allows otherwise, that’s not a number that’s up for a challenge, no matter how much you or I or Obama or Clinton might not like it. Trump’s the fucking president and while Michelle could’ve told Melania to wait in the car, Barack really didn’t have much choice but to bring Trump inside and show him how to start acting like a president instead of a corporate thug, which is what he is. Trump’s lucky Obama didn’t ask him to talk about the good old days with the Gambino family and what John Gotti was really like. That might have been awkward.

  • Nobdy

    Republicans have pushed very hard on states’ rights recently, including of course enshrining equal dignitude as a constitutional principle (Oh it’s not in your constitution? You must have a misprint.)

    Part of this has been discarding the idea that the popular vote matters. Republican politicians have even complained that blue states get additional representation just because they have large populations.

    A lot of people in red states don’t really understand the magnitude of the population differences between a state like Wyoming with 500,000 or so people and one like New York with almost 20 million. They don’t see why policy in THEIR state should be dictated by so many strangers so far away.

    And because smaller states get SO MUCH more power in our government (on a per capita basis) that view holds.

    As for the media? They’re too cowardly to actually criticize something that benefits Republicans. They barely even report that Democrats ALSO tend to win more votes in house and senate elections (combined) but still have fewer reps because of jerrymandering and red state overrepresentation. So since the politicians don’t care and the pundits don’t care people don’t really care.

    It is truly an unfair state of affairs, but it would take a very different country than ours to recognize that in a meaningful way, let alone try to do something to fix it.

    • efgoldman

      So since the politicians don’t care and the pundits don’t care people don’t really care

      Well, they don’t know and they don’t care to know.
      One of the things they tell you when you visit Old Sturbridge Village (a living museum of 1820s New England) is that (surprise!) people of that time had pretty much a 100% literacy rate. Had to, because every small farmer, or butcher, or broom maker had to keep and balance their own books. They all knew who their legislators were, because they lived among the people and had their regular jobs to do. Every day was basically like office hours or town meetings now.
      I’m not suggesting that we go back to the 1820s, but every advance in technology takes something further away from the end user. Tried to tune your car lately?

      • BiloSagdiyev

        a) I had a history prof in college who said that when public education was pushed through in New England, literacy rates took a minor tumble and haven’t recovered since.

        2) I do all of my own maintenance and repair work on my cars. But I’m a fanatic who started learning everything I could in the 80’s…. the good news: modern cars don’t need tuneups, just some spark plugs and filters every once in a blue moon. The internet has also made DIY wrenching much, much easier to learn, there is fantastic support from other owners of your exact car out there.

        I’m sure those legislators living among the people dreaded the sight of the town pewter-hatted crank.

        • Speaking as a professor whose area this is, your professor was misleading. There was always a fair amount of public education – it was just not “public” in the sense of being open to everyone. A lot of colonial kids learned to read in Sunday School, not at home. And for much lower values of “learned”: when your professor talks about literacy rates he may not have realized that “literacy” in the 18th century was generally measured by whether you could sign your name.

          • Origami Isopod

            Thanks. The last few comments didn’t sound right to me.

          • The Dark God of Time

            By the 1830s and 40s, if not earlier, publishers would send representatives to incoming ships from England and buy the novels that some of the travellers would have brought to read on the long voyage across the Atlantic. The lack of any copyright treaty between G.B. and America made his practice a very profitable one.

            Even Henry James got caught by this flaw early in his literary career. And pirated books, unauthorized reprints of copyrighted material were common throughout the latter half of he 19th Cenury.

            • (((Hogan)))

              Which was a big problem for getting literature off the ground in the US. Why pay royalties to a writer when you can get Scott and Dickens for nothing?

          • sam

            also, while people like to pretend the north was super-enlightened, pretty sure the slaves weren’t getting included in literacy rates.

            And yes, there were slaves in New England. My parents have a weekend house in Ashley Falls, MA. Named for Colonel Ashley. Who owned Mum Bett. You can google her to find out more. I personally think we should rename the town after her, but in the meantime, the Ashley Plantation (yes, we had those too) has turned largely into an exhibit about her life.

            • efgoldman

              And yes, there were slaves in New England.

              Not by the 1820s, I don’t think Anyway, my initial comment referred to conditions in a specific (recreated) place and time.

              • so-in-so

                Loomis had a post a year or so ago (no time to look now) about a pamphlet published in the mid 19th century by a freed Connecticut slave. Being a slave ANYWHERE was horrible, and many Northerners who opposed slavery were still racists who would rather the freed slaves be sent elsewhere. Such proposals where studied and even some experiments in relocating freed slaves to the Caribbean were carried out early in the Civil War.

              • Rob in CT

                Slavery wasn’t abolished in Connecticut until 1846, IIRC. Shamefully late. I think we were the last NE state to do it.

                ETA: “shamefully late” of course doesn’t cover it. I mean, it’s shameful we had it at all! I’m saying relative to other NE states.

                • (((Hogan)))

                  Connecticut passed the Gradual Abolition Act of 1784, but this act did not emancipate any enslaved persons, only those who would be born into slavery and only after they reached the age of 25. This gradual process meant that slavery in Connecticut did not officially end until 1848—long after many other Northern states had abolished the practice.

  • vic rattlehead

    Speaking of rage, I made the mistake of looking at the photos of Trump and Obama at the White House. I almost had a rage stroke on the subway. I can’t remember the last time I was so viscerally angry that I wanted to just flip out and start breaking shit in public (I didn’t of course).

    I think I could do a pretty good Hulk in the next Marvel movie. I now have a very powerful thought to channel that kind of rage.

    • bizarroMike

      To see them compared like equals is a sick joke. Hell, it is a joke to compare Trump to Bush.

    • Rob in CT

      Yeah, absolute, visceral disgust was my reaction. Obama has to sit there with that piece of shit and play nice. It’s awful.

      • sibusisodan

        I was reminded, once again, that Obama is basically a better human being than I would know how to become.

        He’s going to be a useful reminder of the possibility of America in times to come.

        • efgoldman

          I was reminded, once again, that Obama is basically a better human being than I would know how to become.

          I said elsewhere that I hoped either POTUS or FLOTUS would get Tangerine Nightmare alone in a corridor somewhere, slap him upside the head, HARD, and yell “WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU?”

          • vic rattlehead

            I was going to say that we don’t know what was said behind closed doors. But then I realized that if Obama was anything less than 100% professional and polite with just a split second of looking at him wrong then Trump would be ranting nonstop on twitter about how unprofessional and mean Obama is.

            Obama is ten times the man any republican is.

        • vic rattlehead

          That’s why he cannot go gentle into that good post-presidency. I mean yes peaceful transition of power. But we need him around. People like him. He inspires people. And he can’t be president again without a constitutional amendment but he can still do great things.

          • sam

            He and Eric Holder had already announced, pre-election, that one of the big initiatives they were going to work on after he left office was a project to get democrats elected to state offices in time for the 2020 census/redrawing of the electoral map.

            Given what just happened, THIS IS EVEN MORE IMPORTANT.

            Whats left of the idealist in me would like to see an overall reform to the extreme gerrymandering that has been going on in favor of something less partisan, but at this point, I’ll take democrats fighting fire with fire.

            • Brad Nailer

              Almost makes me wish the word “motherfucker” could be at least temporarily allowed into the common discourse.

            • blackbox

              That is critically important. I hope he does great top-down organizing and, at the same time, I hope he provides inspiration to bolster a grass-roots left movement that can start chipping away at the Party of No.

    • Emmryss

      Yeah, I posted this to Facebook — You look at a picture like this, America’s first African-American president sitting next to the man who is about to succeed him, who got his start in politics as a leader of the “birther” movement intent on proving that America’s first African-American president couldn’t be president because he wasn’t American because look at him, and did you hear his name, and even if his movement couldn’t delegitimize Obama it could and did help to legitimize hatred and suspicion of him, and you look at the election results, which show Hillary Clinton won the actual vote by almost 2,000,000 votes but did not win the presidency because that gets filtered through the Electoral College which was instituted largely to protect the interests of slaveholders by giving slave states extra clout because slaves (who of course couldn’t vote) were still counted as three-fifths of a person for the purposes of deciding how many electoral votes each state got, and you look at how the vote with its difference of 0.2% between Republicans and Democrats shows a country split right down the middle, and you remember that the United States was only able to resolve the issue of outright slavery by a Civil War in which something like 750,000 men died, and you have to think you’re looking at a country that is literally, certifiably insane, and while I don’t want to give paranoid schizophrenia a bad name, what else can you call it?

  • Cheerful

    I make no claim that it will actually work, but I suppose if enough people do sign this petition it at least becomes a story:

    https://www.change.org/p/electoral-college-electors-electoral-college-make-hillary-clinton-president-on-december-19?utm_medium=email&utm_source=notification&utm_campaign=signature_receipt

    • vic rattlehead

      Will it? I suppose it couldn’t hurt and I will sign it but be wary of getting caught in the slacktivism trap and feel like you’re doing something just signing that thing.

      • cleter

        There need to be big protests in swing state capitals in the run up to the electoral college vote.

    • LeeEsq

      This is a very bad idea. The “In case of emergency, break glass” justification for the Electoral College was given in the Federalist Papers because the actual reason for its creation, “we couldn’t come to an agreement about whether the people or Congress should elect the President so jerry-rigged this instead” didn’t sound like a good sell. Just as Clinton voters feel cheated by the current system, Trump voters could feel legitimately robbed by a big norm violation like this. Norm violations is one reason why we are in this awful mess. If the Electoral College does do something like this, it might be the best case scenario for getting it abolished though.

      • ASV

        We’re going to continue in this mess as long as norm violation is a unilateral tactic.

        • CP

          We really need to get over the notion that abstaining from breaking norms will somehow prevent Republicans from breaking norms when their turn comes. The entire history of this country since Nixon conspired with foreign leaders to nuke the 1968 peace talks has been one long series of Republican norm-breaking after another.

          • Dilan Esper

            You can reject the notion of abstaining from any norm violation and still think that freelancing the electoral college is a terrible precedent.

            • ASV

              A rogue EC specifically is a pipe dream. Every single one of those Republican electors has already voted for Trump to be president! It is a thousand times more likely that a Democratic elector defects than that a Republican one does. But that it’s a norm violation is not a reason to not desire it, particularly given that it would almost certainly spell the end of the Electoral College.

              • CP

                Yes, this.

                I don’t expect and don’t even encourage an EC victory (I always thought the rift between Trump and the rest of the GOP was way overplayed in the media, but after he won?) My objection was to the general notion that “norm violation” or “Trump supporters will feel cheated” (well Christ, what scenario in which they lose wasn’t going to lead to that?) are a good reason for this.

                • Origami Isopod

                  They feel “cheated” by having seen a black man in the White House. Fuck them.

                • The Dark God of Time

                  Richard Nixon was a nightmare that the American people have yet to wake up from.

        • xq

          I agree, but this isn’t useful norm violation because it won’t actually work.

          Unfortunately, you need actual power to break norms constructively.

      • jam

        Just as Clinton voters feel cheated by the current system, Trump voters could feel legitimately robbed by a big norm violation like this.

        So what? Fuck them.

        Norm violations is one reason why we are in this awful mess.

        All of which have been committed by one side.

        Or do you enjoy losing?

        • sapient

          We, of course, should try it, even though it is extremely unlikely to succeed. Today is Veteran’s Day. My father went to war against the Nazis because the Germans let Hitler go too far. Let’s not repeat the Germans’ “mistake”. Let’s do every single thing we can to defeat Donald Trump. I don’t care about the feelings of his racist thugs.

      • Timurid

        A bad idea, maybe. But President Trump is a worse idea.

      • Tom Paine Caucus

        I disagree. Asymmetrical norm violating by Republicans is a significant part of what got us here. Norm acceptance has value because most of the time it advances justice. Even in the long term, I don’t believe that accepting the EC outcome as the legitimate result is justice maximizing–particular when the physical safety of millions of people is at immediate stake.

        • LeeEsq

          Lawlessness is not the solution to lawlessness. Things like the rule of law are important even if it kicks you in the ass hard.

          • Brad Nailer

            What’s lawless about electors voting their conscience, rather than what the electoral-vote map tells them to? Isn’t that the way Hamilton conceived the EC to work anyway?

  • Crusty

    First, I think Bush over Gore (nevermind the sup ct involvement) made people numb and accepting of the fact that this happens. Second, people have become more aware of the role of sophisticated get out the vote operations, so there is some acceptance that 1) its the electoral college that matters and 2) we got beat on that, having accepted that that’s the game. Three, the electoral college obviously minimizes and blunts the significance of votes in New York and California, and we’ve had it ingrained into us that New York and California are not the real America, and that the good people of the real America, i.e., real Americans don’t live there, so its totally ok that their will is disregarded. Four, closely related to number three, its just been ingrained in us that there are strange practices at work- like Iowa and New Hampshire playing such an outsized role in the primaries and things like ethanol subsidies being foregone conclusions.

    • jamesepowell

      For the same reasons you note, there has also been an elevation of the Swing States into some kind of special voter wisdom category. It’s akin to the every four years’ sanctification of the Undecided Voter. Or the way everyone acts like people in Iowa & New Hampshire are in some way highly qualified to choose each party’s candidate.

      To the press/media and thus to the great mass of Americans, the Swing States are where the election battle is really taking place. We already know what those people in California & New York – and for that matter Alabama and Texas – think. We need to know about Ohio & Florida. They are the ones who are up for grabs so if we follow what they are doing we are following the real campaign.

    • efgoldman

      we’ve had it ingrained into us that New York and California are not the real America

      No “we” haven’t. A bunch of ignorant, tantrum-throwing assholes have.

  • Crusty

    I know this is not serious, and there are serious concerns at the moment, but, if and when some kind of official presidential portrait of Trump is painted, how on earth will the artist handle the hair?

    • Nobdy

      Paint him wearing a red MAGA hat. BOOM! Problem solved.

      • Crusty

        That, or maybe he’ll be wearing a crown by then.

        • BiloSagdiyev

          Or a Wehrmacht helmet.

    • rhino

      Exactly the way the Red Skull was painted in Captain America: True to life, because anyone who laughs will go to the ovens.

    • cleter

      The artist will use photographs from 1989 as a reference.

  • Brett

    Republicans’ commitment to the democratic aspect of the federal government has been a tad more tepid than Democrats for decades. Remember, one of the ideas that the Tea Party crowd pushed for a while was in revoking popular election for Senators to restore it to the states.

    • bizarroMike

      Or the “joke” that we should repeal the 19th amendment. Or the idea that the Voting Rights Act isn’t needed any more because it worked. In the end, this is the serious breakdown of the system. I thought the consensus was that the voters, consisting of “everyone,” would consent to be ruled by a majority vote. This was how power was legitimately conferred. But that doesn’t produce good results for one party, so they don’t care about majority rule.

    • CP

      The irony being that Republicans, who hate the EU, want the country to return to a system exactly like what they figure the EU to be. One in which instead of a country, it’s actually more a loose coalition of countries, with unelected bureaucrats (what senators used to be) wielding a ton of power over the lives of voters even as they benefit from extra layers of insulation against accountability from them.

  • I think Josh Marshall at TPM is the only one I’ve seen muse about this, but the most striking and disturbing thing about the popular/EC split this time is the sheer magnitude of it. In 2000 Gore won the popular vote by about 500,000 and lost in the EC 271-266. That kind of scenario makes you go “huh, that’s a pretty counter-intuitive rule, I guess weird shit can happen.”

    She is going to win the popular vote by about two million. And she lost the EC by more than 70. That is a staggering rebuke of the will of the majority.

    • jac

      The thing that is so frustrating about this is that if Clinton was granted the victory that her popular vote total deserves, the whole narrative would be changed. Yes, people would still be dismayed that Trumps misogyny, racism and xenophobia got so many votes, but the headlines would read something like “Americans narrowly–but decisively–turned back the threat to their common ideals.” Instead, we’re looking at emboldened white supremacists, a cabinet of deplorables, and the collapse of the republic.

    • leftwingfox

      I think that’s just going to get worse as well.

      Consider the “Let the States decide” mentality of the Republican party. In the long rung, it’s bullshit and they’ll push for federal suppression of leftist policies in the Blue states. In the short term though, people will continue to see Blue states as safer places to live, and will, where possible, migrate to those states.

      Just adds to the number of votes hidden behind the electoral college. Even if the EC votes are re-balanced by the updated census, the method of assigning electors will always favor the less populous (rural) states.

      • rea

        The Rs will show the same tender concern for states’ rights that their slaver predecessors did when Congress enacted a fugitive slave law

        • leftwingfox

          Right, It’s a tactic. They were losing the national debate, so they said “Let the states decide”. They’ll continue to use it as justification for rolling back federal standards, if they still have the power after that, they’ll start capping the rollbacks on the blue states.

          Last thing they want is some blue state with a higher minimum wage, LGBT protections or universal healthcare showing America that they don’t cause the end of the world.

    • Davis X. Machina

      The people have spoken.

      James Madison, however, pre-stuffed a sock in their megaphone 220 years ago.

  • Marlowe

    Just two points that I’ve wanted to make for a couple of days.

    First, before the election in 2000, it was thought fairly likely that Bush would win the popular vote and lose in the Electoral College (the actual outcome–well, if you exclude the fact that a plurality of Floridians thought that they had voted for Gore–was considered far less likely). The Bush campaign was known to have worked on a legal strategy to challenge the legitimacy of the election if that occurred.

    Second, does anyone have any doubt about the general tenor of the Rethug response if Clinton had won the EC but lost the popular vote? Imagine something like the 2000 Florida Brooks Brothers riot writ nationwide and far more violent couple with a myriad of legal actions.

    I am not advocating that Democrats–or more generally those who still believe in a free America–should adopt either violence or legal action. Indeed, I oppose both. As a former attorney, I think legal action is frivolous and baseless (and AFAIK no one is remotely contemplating it). Violence is morally wrong and self-defeating. Sometimes it just plain stinks to believe in morality and objective norms. I am proud to do so and that so many good people agree with me. But, boy, does it put us at a disadvantage sometimes.

    “Everybody knows that the dice are loaded
    Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed
    Everybody knows the war is over
    Everybody knows the good guys lost
    Everybody knows the fight was fixed
    The poor stay poor, the rich get rich
    That’s how it goes
    Everybody knows”

    Leonard Cohen, 1934-2016

    • CP

      I am not advocating that Democrats–or more generally those who still believe in a free America–should adopt either violence or legal action

      Question: I’m seeing multiple freakouts from wingnut relatives and the like about the anti-Trump protests and how they supposedly are now involving rioters beating Trump supporters. Has this in fact happened? (I doubt if it’s widespread or representative if it is, I’d just like confirmation or disconfirmation from people who aren’t full of shit…)

      • BiloSagdiyev

        Er, I think I saw a link to one video that allegedly showed some blacks citizens roughing up a Trump voter. And that’s all I’ve heard.

        2) Florid imaginations and persecution complex and fear of THEM. You know. THEM. Over on THAT side of town.

        Meanwhile, an endless string of incidents nationwide:
        https://twitter.com/ShaunKing?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

        • efgoldman

          I think I saw a link to one video

          The video that’s going around, from Chicago, I believe, has nothing to do with the election despite what the RWNJ flying monkeys are howling. It is the aftermath of a traffic accident, that got out of hand as those things sometimes do. Hell, I backed into a car once out of a parking space and I thought the driver was going to physically attack me until I pointed out that his car wasn’t even scratched.

  • mpavilion

    Some of y’all seem to be conceding total defeat on Day 3. I’m feeling the same rage, despair, fear, etc. — but how did you “That’s it, we’re totally fucked!” folks make it through the Bush years? Or the ’80s, when we could have all been annihilated any minute (and that has remained true since, btw). I know this feels uniquely worse than anything that has come before, and I don’t want to patronize anyone with empty pep talks, but… it’s gonna be a hella long few years, and catastrophizing (even in the face of a catastrophe) ain’t productive!

    • Crusty

      Re Bush, he didn’t tell us at the outset how horrible he was going to be. Re the 80’s and the specter of nuclear destruction, there seemed to be common ground that that was to be avoided. Not so much in this case.

    • Denverite

      This is going to be so much worse than the Bush years it’s not even funny. There’s the fact that Trump is worse than Bush on all levels, but even more to the point, GOP now realizes that policy doesn’t matter. People don’t vote on policy. No one does. They can pass anything they want, and they will. They’re going to gut social security and Medicare in the first month, and that’s just going to be the start.

      They only thing limiting the horror we’re about to witness is the time until it all implodes and the resulting Democrat can try to clean up this mess. But that could be a decade.

      • NeonTrotsky

        They’ll phase it out so the old white people keep voting for them and it all goes to shit when a Democrat is in office so they can escape responsibility

      • sherm

        And Trump is inheriting a much weaker America, so we can less afford his incompetence. Bush entered with a surplus and at a time of peace, and nearly destroyed us.

    • rea

      Back in the 80’s and the ’00’s the Democrats had control of a veto point or two most of the time, the R’s still had moderates, and the norms of both parties acting together for the good of the country were stronger.

      • CP

        The GOP gets worse as it goes. This is, in part, thanks to the fact that the longer they live within the Fox News bubble, the more immersed in rage and bullshit they get, and the further right they drift. (And they keep needing stronger and stronger fixes of Two Minutes Hate, too).

    • mpavilion

      I’m pretty sure I acknowledged this feels “uniquely worse” than the past; my point wasn’t “please enumerate the ways” (I think we’re all aware of them). My point is that bleak posts serve no purpose other than (IMO) a negative / self-defeating one. But I guess you guys do what you gotta do. Maybe I’m the one who needs a break from this site.

      • efgoldman

        But I guess you guys do what you gotta do.

        There’s something to be said for having a semi-public space to vent. It’s better than yelling at your spouse and kids (although I’m getting it in spades from mrs efg) or going out and getting drunk and driving into a bridge pier, or getting an ulcer.
        This is a blog comment section; that’s what it’s for.

      • nixnutz

        I agree with you only tangentially, I don’t really want to do this in public because there are too many assholes celebrating, I don’t want to give them anything.

        But that’s much less for these warnings of dangers on the horizon than the gnashing of teeth and the blame-storming sessions.

        And a break could be a good idea, I’ve been meaning to start reading some Wendell Berry and back off the politics but I haven’t actually been able to do it yet.

    • efgoldman

      “That’s it, we’re totally fucked!” folks make it through the Bush years?

      W, for whatever it’s worth, was an experienced politician from a political family (albeit the least capable) who had actually been governor of a large state for several years. He at least knew the basics. I’m reasonably sure that Oreange McRapey Combover has no idea what the executive, legislative, and judicial branches do, and more important what they can’t; I fear he’s going to be grievously disappointed when he figures it out, if he ever does.

      • Brad Nailer

        That’s what his advisors like Mayor 9/11 and “I am the Walrus” Bolton and the rest of the Usual Gang of Idiots will be for. Trump will be there for the photo-ops; the boys in the band will take care of the real business. As long as Trump doesn’t have to actually explain anything or do more than act like he knows what the fuck is going on, he’ll be fine.

        Reagan + W = Trump.

    • Emmryss

      Well, a whole lot of folks, most of them Iraqis, and now Syrians, never did make it through those years and their on-going repercussions.

  • Denverite

    I’m going to make an exception for at least the next four years, along with exceptions to other rules, like don’t drink before 10 AM. Just kidding/not kidding

    For morning drinking, I’d definitely recommend a sweet IIPA/DIPA, something boozy with just a hint of bitterness. I’ve gone on about the virtues of Myrcenary, so I won’t again, but that’s an excellent choice. Jax probably has it on tap in Boulder (they do in Denver), so that and a plate of oysters is an excellent start to the day. I recently had Gubna on tap, and while I generally don’t like Oskar Blues, that would be a fine choice as well. I generally find Rampant not sweet enough for morning drinking, but it’s definitely an option to segue to by mid afternoon.

    • Morbo

      Hmm, that reminds me I need to see if I can grab another Short’s Hoppy Holidays pack.

    • kg

      I’d go for a Breakfast Stout.

      • Brad Nailer

        Call me a philistine but I’ll take my Oil Cans morning, noon, and night. It makes the occasional latching onto something better so much better.

    • Linnaeus

      I go with vodka. Mixes well with my preferred juices and I can shoot it if I want to.

      • efgoldman

        I can shoot it if I want to.

        Wait. You main line vodka? Maybe I should mix it with my insulin. Hmmm.

        • Linnaeus

          I don’t mainline vodka, but maybe I should.

    • Yankee

      The Green won’t ruin your liver or bloat your gut

    • efgoldman

      Sometimes I regret that I have such a low tolerance for alcohol or other drowsiness inducing substances. All the males on my dad’s side are “smell the cork and pass out” which they passed on to me, along with the various Jewish snozzes.
      Genetics am a wonderful thing. No drinking for me.

    • Taters

      The fact that you are recommending merely beer implies that you are not yet aware of the gravity of the situation.

      • Matty

        As far as I’m concerned, there’s nothing like a day of sinking beers and ranting for the soul. And I say that as someone who loves him some cheap whiskey.

  • CP

    So why is this outcome now considered just one of those things/those are the rules/wisdom of the framers or whatever, besides the always applicable principle that IOKIYAR?

    IOKIYAR, obviously. You can bet that if a trend began to develop of liberal victories overruling the popular vote on account of the electoral college, you’d be seeing pressure to abolish it right quick. You know the drill; “this encourages a disconnect between unaccountable political elites and the American people! Our government is out of control, and we have no say in it anymore! GIVE US OUR COUNTRY BACK!” Etc.

    What I find mind-boggling is the justifications from wannabe-freshmen-poli-sci nerds going “this is GOOD because we’re a REPUBLIC not a DEMOCRACY.” They’re literally saying “the system is good because that’s how the system works.” I mean, imagine justifying the Iranian government like that. “Well yes, of course, the democratic process only takes place within the context of candidates that have been approved by an unelected judiciary/religious body, BUT THAT’S HOW THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC WORKS SO HOW CAN IT BE WRONG LOLOLOL!!!”

    Another part in my long-running grudge against the cult of the founding fathers as religious prophets rather than, you know, politicians.

    • JKTH

      I mean…doesn’t the whole “It’s a republic not a democracy” thing argue for electors being able to do whatever the hell they want? Electors bound to the results of their state is still a democratic method, it’s just divided up into 51 different contests and weighted differently than the popular vote.

      (I’m not sure if this makes any sense or not.)

      • CP

        I mean, it doesn’t really mean anything. “We’re a republic not a democracy” is a meme that suddenly appeared all over the wingnut blogosphere starting in 2009, which none too subtly was a dig at Obama’s victory and a way of saying that popular support didn’t count.

        It was always transparent bullshit – I’d often read people go on and say “and he’s governing as a total dictator, passing the ACA when most people don’t want it” in the very same sentence, never mind that the whole point of “we’re a republic not a democracy” is that these things are not decided by direct majority opinion.

  • Morse Code for J

    James Madison on why we have the Electoral College:

    “There was one difficulty however of a serious nature attending an immediate choice by the people. The right of suffrage was much more diffusive in the Northern than the Southern States; and the latter could have no influence in the election on the score of Negroes. ***The substitution of electors obviated this difficulty*** and seemed on the whole to be liable to the fewest objections.”

    • so-in-so

      So the failure was in not eliminating the EC when the vote was given to freedmen in the 14th amendment. The likely hood of a future amendment to remove it now would appear to be nil.

      • Timurid

        Instead the Republicans will find ways to weaponize it properly.

  • Crusty

    Do you think we’ll see any sort of organized movement to get dems from New York and California to actually pick up and move to swing states?

    • NeonTrotsky

      Libertarians have been trying this with New Hampshire for years, and even with a gazillion state legislators the best they can muster is a seat or two every few years. The barriers to moving enough people to actually make a difference are immense.

      • SatanicPanic

        That’s an awful lot to ask- give up your job and your home so maybe someone better can be elected someday in the future.

    • rewenzo

      I mean, liberals have been doing okay in swing states. Nevada and Colorado are now blue. Virginia has turned blue. States that were considered solid red, like North Carolina and Virginia, are now in play. And we’re making headway in states like Texas, Georgia, and Arizona.

      It’s logistically much easier to simply scrap the EC, then strategically move hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers to Iowa.

      ETA that nobody moves so that their vote can count for marginally more.

      • Linnaeus

        Not to mention that Trump’s wins in several bluish states were very narrow. Those are winnable states.

      • efgoldman

        And we’re making headway in states like Texas, Georgia, and Arizona.

        The same pollsters told us that, that told us HRC was going to be elected. When any of them elects a Dem majority in even one house of the state leg, or a Dem governor, I might start to believe it.
        It’s like the Republiklowns saying occasionally “we’re making headway in Massachusetts” because they elect a governor once in a while – who has to govern like a moderate Democrat.

    • Richard Gadsden

      The state that people need to move to isn’t one of the midwestern ones. It’s Pennsylvania. Which has two big cities to live in and one of those – Philadelphia – is a short distance from both NYC and DC.

      There enough other states on a trend to blue (e.g. AZ, NC) to counter the losses of Iowa and Ohio and even Wisconsin. Illinois looks safe, and Minnesota should stay blue in any election that the Democrat gets a majority of the popular vote. Michigan is the other big problem, of course.

      • nixnutz

        My mom grew up in Reading, which is a shithole, but I sometimes look at the houses for sale on Craigslist and imagine what it would be like if I felt capable of living in a place where I had no friends or support system but that’s not even close to being true.

        I’m very grateful to be in New York right now but I’ve known since I got here I wasn’t really a side-hustling make-it-there type and the luxury brand flagship stores and celebrity chef restaurants are only going to make me angrier from here on out.

        • efgoldman

          I sometimes look at the houses for sale on Craigslist and imagine what it would be like if I felt capable of living in a place where I had no friends or support system

          Yeah. When we sell our (three bedroom ranch) in Northern RI, we expect to ask ~$260k, and get ~$230-240k. Same house inside the I-95 corridor in suburban Boston would be ~$500k. Same house in Arlington VA would be ~$800-850k, and teardown to build a new McMansion on the lot. Same house in Watsonville PA, where my youngest sister in law lives, less than $100k – considerably less.
          You pays your money and you makes yer choice.

      • Brad Nailer

        I’ll move to wherever the DNC wants me to as long as they pay for it.

        Jeezus Christ, is this actually being put forth as a substantive plan?

    • Dennis Orphen

      It’s going to be the other way around. Property values in the the liberal enclaves of the blue states are already astronomical and I expect them to quadruple over the next few years.

  • NeonTrotsky

    Imagine what would have happened if Donald Trump had won the popular vote but Clinton the EC. It’d be cries of rigged system to no tomorrow.

    • cleter

      Mitch McConnell would announce that no president who lost the popular vote could appoint a Supreme Court justice. He just found words to that effect scribbled on the back of the Constitution, next to the part about no Supreme Court appointments in the fourth year of a black man’s term.

      • Origami Isopod

        … and the lapdog media would eat up every word like it was their own vomit.

  • LeeEsq

    This is from June but the New is apparently toying with the idea of reviving HUAC. This is how the Trump administration could deal with inconvenient people, critics, and ideological enemies. It first with the entire media and Reality TV show circus and the media will eat it up because ratings. When you combine this with all the rallies and pageantry that are going to happen, Trump’s administration is going to end up as Rightist version of Stalinism.

    • BigHank53

      God, did they ever envy Stalin. Of course, any authoritarian is going to bask in the rays coming off the biggest authoritarian around.

      • LeeEsq

        Like I said in early posts, I think Trump’s template will look a lot like many Communist regimes. Nicole Ceausescu’s Romania will be a really interesting look alike regime.

        • The Dark God of Time

          I look forward to Trump untangling the rats’ nest of fixing the drought here in California.

          • BiloSagdiyev

            Similar with the complexities of water-sharing agreements between GA, FL, SC, AL. Yes, what these complex, multi-party situations need is a confident, ignorant, decisive outsider with a big mallet.

          • Redwood Rhiadra

            Why would he even try? A California where half the population has had to leave (or died) due to drought is one with (almost) half the Electoral College votes and half the Representatives in Congress.

    • leftwingfox

      There’s another avenue that I can see.

      Trump calls a person terrible. The fever swamps online elevate that to “terrible traitor destroying our nation”. Lone wolf terrorist tries to kill the person, maybe succeeds.

      This was the path that got Dr. George Tiller killed. This is how plausible deniability protected the media pundits and politicians who demonized him.

      But what happens if Trump then pardons the killer? Even if there’s pushback, a significant number of people in the alt-right will see it as open season on their political enemies, or even open season on people criticizing the pardon.

      • LeeEsq

        That’s what happened in Weimar. The courts went a lot lighter on Right Terrorists than Left Terrorists.

        • CP

          It seems to be a pretty universal trend that right wing terrorists get far better treatment than left wing terrorists, generally speaking. Or even than a hell of a lot of nonviolent left wingers.

          I used to think it was a simple power thing (i.e. right wing terrorists get away with more because they target poor and disenfranchised groups that nobody gives a shit about, while left wing ones tend to target the rich and powerful – politicians and businessmen and the like). But I don’t even think that’s true – right wing militias get a ton of sympathy from politicians and others trying to gum up the works or at least make sure the system goes easier on them.

          • efgoldman

            It seems to be a pretty universal trend that right wing terrorists get far better treatment than left wing terrorists

            Actually it ain’t right wing vs left wing. Doncha’ unnerstan’, good christian white boys cain’t be terr’ists, they just deranged. All them browner people w’the Ai-rabb names, they’s the terr’ists.

        • leftwingfox

          Yep. To be fair, I currently think the latter is unlikely, since Trump’s first instinct has consistently been to throw people under the bus when they became a liability to his brand.

          But the former is going to be a major problem.

          • CP

            I agree on the latter, although I could see him doing it just as a “fuck you” to minorities and liberals.

            The former, on the other hand, is a guaranteed certainty.

      • Timurid

        The word you’re looking for is “Proscription.”

        And you knew who you were then,
        Girls were girls and men were men,
        Mister we could use a man
        Like Lucius Sulla again.

  • lunaticllama

    I keep on saying to everyone I know – Trump was not selected by the American people to be president. If I get push-back, I ask a series of questions about who won the popular vote and how Trump got far less votes than Clinton. I have no idea if it’s pointless, but I am going to keep on hammering away at lack of democratic legitimacy (as in, he did not receive the most votes in the election.) Maybe, it will sink in that this system is not right and something needs to change.

    • Davis X. Machina

      The stories we tell are very important. The abolition movement was story-driven — Uncle Tom’s Cabin is the star example — and achieved a pretty heavy lift.

      In conjunction with a flat-out civil war, but let’s not nitpick…

    • cleter

      I’ve been doing that too.

    • CP

      I mean, it’s worthless as a procedural argument, but it needs to be pointed out every time to push back against the claim of “the people are fed up with the arrogant elites and the bureaucratic system that ignores them…” No, the bureaucratic system set up and maintained by arrogant elites is what elected Trump, not public outrage.

  • Jake the antisoshul soshulist

    This is definitely an H L Mencken election.
    “The theory that the common man knows what they want and deserves to get it good and hard.”
    We will have to see if the Bible-Banger/Yahoo coalition will hold up.
    I think the Yahoos don’t yet realize the shit twinky they bought.
    It looks like the Bangers will get a big part of their wet dream.

  • applecor

    One point I have not seen made is that since the Dems gained House seats AND gained Senate seats AND won the Presidential popular vote, the claims of “mandate” by Ryan etc., which would be BS in any event, are even more clearly BS than usual. We don’t even need to fall back on the traditional “Well only 60M of 300+M Americans voted for Trump.”

    • cleter

      Winning the electoral vote gets you sworn in. Winning the popular vote gets you a mandate.

      • Brad Nailer

        Negative, Ghost Rider. A mandate is what you have when you tell the country you’ve got a fucking mandate and then dare anybody to tell you differently. Do that, and make sure the media have their little orgasms over your manly manliness, and you’re there. The popular vote’s got nothing to do with it beyond getting you into the final round. Just ask Dick Cheney.

    • ASV

      A mandate is exactly as strong as what you can do with it.

      • applecor

        I get that the “mandate” discussion is 99% a pundit circle jerk, and that following 100.000% of all elections since the “mandate” meme emerged, the winners have said “of course we have a mandate” and the losers have said “of course they don’t have a mandate” if at all plausible. All I am saying is that this year the loser’s statement, given loss of the Presidency and both houses, is pretty much as strong as possible, for the 1% that it matters.

        • cleter

          Right, but the electoral vote guy lost the popular vote by a historic, unprecedented margin. If ever there was a guy who didn’t have a mandate, it’s this guy.

          • applecor

            I think we are agreeing.

          • ASV

            Yes, and there isn’t ever. If you can do it, you can do it. If you win by 8% and pick up states your party hasn’t won in half a century, but the other party uses every tool available to them to obstruct and gets away with it politically, you can’t do it. Mandates are fake.

            • XTPD

              Mandates may not “actually” exist, but they’re as real as the press thinks it is. The problem here is that Villagers only use the “imaginary mandate” concept in order to demand total Democratic capitulation.

        • Richard Gadsden

          I’m so sorry that the British concept of a mandate has transferred to the US without the Salisbury Convention that give specific meaning and teeth to the concept.

  • You know, my first reaction when the early results were coming in was: why the *!^&* did I think we were going to win all those swing states? It was a shock in 2008 when Obama did. I know, I know, the polls said it. Love, too, how Vox just ran an article about polls done–before the election–of “likely Trump voters” (that is, excluding the people who weren’t caught by the pre-election polls)–explaining why we lost. Glad to see they’re not letting new evidence change their M.O.

    It makes no sense that maybe 10% of the states count in the election. Some of the states in will shift and become more or less sure things for the other side. States that really sit on ideological fault lines–or that are possibly always going to be split 50-50 with D and R voters–will always be in play, and if they are actually more like 55-45 R-D, they will most often go for the other side.

    The popular vote still has the same problem.

    So, what do we do, we wait until people of color vote in a left program? What happens then? What is the program that will prevent the line shifting elsewhere in a way that only benefits the extreme Right?

    My prediction is that people who seem to be taking their cues from Trump and Trumpkins become excluded more and more from normal processes and normal institutions. They will whine and go “but white working class” (even if they’re not), but let them take a taste of their own medicine.

  • Howlin Wolfe

    Since I’m supposed to be a prissy law professor I’m not supposed to swear in public, but I’m going to make an exception for at least the next four years, along with exceptions to other rules, like don’t drink before 10 AM. Just kidding/not kidding

    So, you’re going to drink before 10 AM but not really swear in public? WON’T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF SCOTT’S LIVER!!!

    • Rob in CT

      Paul’s liver, but Scott’s too no doubt.

      • N__B

        Everyone knows all liberals share a hive-liver.

        • Rob in CT

          Oh, good, ’cause mine sure could use some help in the coming years…

        • Denverite

          Sorry guys

    • BiloSagdiyev

      SAVE HIS FUCKING LIVER!

      • efgoldman

        SAVE HIS FUCKING LIVER!

        Definitely doing it rong.

    • It’s after 10:00 AM somewhere.

      • N__B

        All over the U.S., it’s currently after midnight.

  • Yankee

    I note that people marching around occasionally interrupting traffic is being portrayed as “rioting” on the Facebook, something like the OP pic, whereas I haven’t heard about even busted windows like they did in Seattle. Trump voters are far away from Union Square, what do they know? It’s the warmup for Sherif Joe and the Great Huge Deportation Roundup, with hippie bashing on the side.

    Those Fancy Bear chaterboxes!

    • efgoldman

      It’s the warmup for Sherif Joe and the Great Huge Deportation Roundup

      Sheriff Joe is gonna’ end up in the clink, unless his election loss makes his federal contempt citation moot. We’re not going to deport 11 million people and we’re not going to build a wall, because congress won’t appropriate the multi-billions of bux it would cost. Hell, the asshole King from Iowa had eight years to propose a funding bill that would force Obama to round up and deport all those people. There was never a word of a suggestion on paper, it was just something to bitch about and scare people.

      • Origami Isopod

        We’re not going to deport 11 million people and we’re not going to build a wall, because congress won’t appropriate the multi-billions of bux it would cost.

        To say nothing of Big Agriculture, Meat, and other industries giving up their cheap semi-slave labor.

        • efgoldman

          To say nothing of Big Agriculture, Meat, and other industries giving up their cheap semi-slave labor.

          Of course the flying howler monkeys have very short memories; history for them stopped around 1850. But which was it – Georgie? Alabama? – passed a hugely restrictive anti-immigrant law, and a whole year’s crops rotted in the fields. Is they capable of learning? Hit ’em enough times with a 2×4 – maybe so.

          That’s also why I’m not as panicky about the ACA and medicare as some: who’s raking in billions of bux in federal subsidies and premium payments? Big Insurance, that’s who. And who has one of the biggest, yoogest, most magnificent lobbying and campaign finance operations on both federal and state levels? Why, the self same Big Insurance.
          It won’t take too many lobbyists whispering in too many ears that their campaign contributions could just as easily go to the Dems…..
          Nice little office you got there, congressman.
          No matter their ideology, self-preservation and re-election are the two parts of their prime directive.

          • Origami Isopod

            Yabbut, there’s no reason Drumpf & Co. couldn’t keep the ACA in place and “tinker” with it. Jack up premiums and so forth. Nothing’s off the table anymore.

            • Brad Nailer

              22 million paying customers is a lot of paying customers. It doesn’t matter where the money’s coming from; in fact, it’s even better if it’s coming from the guaranteed revenue stream known as Uncle Sam.

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