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Disgrace

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Here we go.

There was a nine minute gap between the first and second tweets, suggesting to me that Trump was enjoying the drama that he was creating by destroying lives and careers. Helpfully, RAND has a report indicating that all of this is bullshit.

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  • FlipYrWhig

    “Tremendous medical costs”?

    • Denverite

      That raised my eyebrow as well. It takes a lot to make me surprised about his ignorance, but, well, there you go.

      • mattmcirvin

        The wingnut claim is that moochers are flocking to the military just to get free gender-reassignment surgery.

        Remember the monetary argument against gay marriage, that it was going to bankrupt everyone because millions of AIDS patients would marry to get on your employee health plan? It’s a bit like that, though maybe not as murderously cruel.

        • cpinva

          the other monetary argument, that i heard anyway, was that gay marriage would destroy social security, because all those people would now be eligible for survivor’s benefits. that they were eligible for benefits, based on their own work history, apparently never crossed the nitwit’s minds.

          “There was a nine minute gap between the first and second tweets,
          suggesting to me that Trump was enjoying the drama that he was creating
          by destroying lives and careers.”

          i think you give him too much credit. i believe it took him that long, to figure out what to say next. we aren’t talking about the brightest bulb in the box here.

          • Leigh Grossman

            Perhaps that was the time until the next commercial break on Fox.

    • BiloSagdiyev

      Our military must only be burdened by the tremendous medical costs of gunshot wounds, IED’s, TBI’s, and PTSD. And of course, sleep apnea in the Air Force.

      • Mellano

        Don’t forget toilet seats, hammers, etc.

      • Origami Isopod

        Our military must only be burdened by the tremendous medical costs of gunshot wounds, IED’s, TBI’s, and PTSD.

        Oh, don’t worry about those, the VA will declare them pre-existing injuries! Except for PTSD, which is just modern SJW lingo for "malingering."

    • SatanicPanic

      More than $12 a month?

    • Thirtyish

      If you’re looking for sense in his 140-character shrieks, I’m afraid you aren’t going to find any milk at the hardware store. This is base, red meat bigotry lazily wrapped in what he thinks passes for persuasive-sounding reasoning (“Mention money and ‘costs’! People think money’s important. Also, pump up the military, because go USA!”)

      • so-in-so

        Not like expecting sense from longer forms (like interviews) is rewarded…

        • Thirtyish

          True.

    • mausium

      Any medical care is too much for a Republican.

    • I have to say that Trump’s relentless use of superlatives gets under my skin. It’s a minor thing given all the depravity but it disproportionately annoys me.

      I think it’s just such a direct symbol that there’s no hope. There’s never a point in disputing them because they really are meaningless.

  • Cervantes

    What a sick piece of shit.

    • Yixing’s Fluffer

      Just you wait for the Log Cabin Republicans to add their two cents!

      • mausium

        “We disagree but still love you, hatedaddy”!

      • BigHank53

        “I said ‘harder’, and I meant it.”

    • Our hater in chief.

  • Yixing’s Fluffer

    When Donnie read “LGBTs for Trump” he understood: Labias Gams Butts Titties

    Also, looks like McCrory is finally getting a job.

  • paul1970

    So, Trump is a disgrace, and all of this is bullshit, but the RAND corporation’s report is written in the kind of language I spend my professional life railing against. Take the first conclusion, for example:

    “DoD should ensure strong leadership and identify and communicate the benefits of an inclusive and diverse workforce to successfully implement a policy change and successfully integrate openly serving transgender service members into the force.”
    1. “DoD should ensure strong leadership”. As opposed to the cases where DoD should ensure weak leadership, presumably.
    2. “DoD should… identify.. the benefits”. The benefits are assumed to exist, but it’s someone else’s job to identify them.
    3. The first sentence up to “change” can be summarised as “DoD should to achieve change”. Yeah, right.
    4. Both the policy change and the integration should be successful, apparently independently. This implies that the policy could be successfully changed even if it has no success in achieving integration.

    The whole report is weirdly framed as well, focused on healthcare costs. Presumably these costs exist to society regardless of whether they are borne by the military or not. It’s bizarre to frame a report for government about the ability to externalise costs back onto its own citizens (or not).

  • Joe Paulson

    This Day in Truman History

    July 26, 1948

    President Truman issues Executive Order No. 9981 Desegregating the Military

    • farin

      So this is a Pence thing, then? I can’t imagine anyone but a fundamentalist sicko like him would be concerned about the anniversary matching up.

      • Leigh Grossman

        I think that’s a Trump’s Razor thing. The last thing you’d want if you’re trying to pretend this isn’t really discrimination is to do it on the day that will cause the greatest amount of attention to the discrimination. I think he saw something on Fox and just tweeted it out without talking to anyone first.

  • the Dems aren’t perfect!!! not perfect!!!!
    blackmail!!

    • mds

      Dimes started being worth a whole lot more in January for some reason.

      • Howlin Wolfe

        I shoulda invested in dimes!

        • Lurking Canadian

          Bitdimes! Perfect for funding a new, online No Labels!

  • randomworker

    So twits are or are not official statements from the President*?

    Seems like they are.

  • “Donnie, you gotta do something to distract people from you colluding with Russia and turning the Scouts fascist.”

    • turning the Scouts fascist

      You mean the Trump Youth?

      • Thirtyish

        To their credit, a number of parents were none too pleased at the spectacle.

        • Karen

          A couple of friends of mine, including one winner of the Lord Badon Powell award who also was instrumental in getting the BSA to accept gay kids, noted that the reaction from parents was almost entirely negative, and that the parents who were there stopped the kids from booing almost instantly. FWIW, it’s no great trick to get grade school kids to boo or cheer on command, and that’s what Trump did. The kids reacted that way because they’re kids and a grownup told them to do something.

          • Tyto

            I have friends up at Summit who told me the same thing. Overall, he was not well received. I also loved that several councils issued counter-statements to the speech.

    • FlipYrWhig

      The only distraction from creeping fascism is more fascism, faster!

      • Origami Isopod

        Faster, Pussygrabber! Kill! Kill!

    • Chauncy Gardner

      “Turning the scouts fascist” suggests that they were ever otherwise. I was a Cub Scouts den leader and had a co-Leader describe the scouts as a “para-military religious organization” without suspicion or derision, that was enough for me to leave and pull my sons.

      • McAllen

        I don’t know if this is still the case, but when I was in the Scouts we literally did Hitler salutes.

        • medrawt

          I don’t mean to pry about your age, but I assume there was a delay between the end of WWII and the elimination of the traditional Roman-derived salute from American life. It used to be the proper posture for reciting the Pledge of Allegiance.

          • wjts

            Wikipedia says that the Flag Code replaced the Bellamy salute with the hand-over-heart in December, 1942.

          • McAllen

            My memories of this are from the late nineties and early aughts, but for the life of me I can’t find any acknowledgement that this was a recent thing in the BSA. Maybe it was a regional thing?

            Either way, I’m sure you’re right that it has it’s origin in the pre-Nazi salute. I don’t know if it’s right to say the Scouts are a fascist youth organization, but they’re certainly primed to be one.

            • Synykyl

              Was Richard Spencer’s mom your den mother? ;-)

        • sharculese

          I was asked to do a Hitler salute at a wedding once. Like, not on purpose, the priest was asking us to raise our right hands to make a house to shelter the bride and groom, but my friends were looking over at me and my other friend, because between us we were the only Jew and the only gay person there, to see how we felt about this.

          • brendalu

            That happened at my friend’s wedding. The most awkward thing in the world, especially as he’s a Jewish man who was marrying into an almost picture-perfect Aryan family. (Visually that is – they seem like fine people, except for bride’s father who is a raging asshole and racist of the wealthy suburban Illinois, ask-the-waitress-to-see-her-green-card variety.)
            We kept looking around like “is anyone else seeing this? What is happening here?” I’m still kind of boggled. And kept my arm down, ftr.

            • sharculese

              Hey, my dad is from a wealthy family in suburban Illinois, although we don’t associate with them much because he’s the only one who didn’t grow up to be of the ask-the-waitress-to-see-her-green-card variety. (Having Jewish kids also kind of helped the distance.)

              I honestly did not think about it until my friends started looking at the two of us and asking, “are you guys okay with this?” To me it seemed like a cute ritual, and only at that point did I think that, yeah, this is kind of weird.

            • brucej

              The relevant quote “Illinois Nazis. I HATE Illinois Nazis!”

              https://youtu.be/-ukFAvYP3UU

          • Pete

            At my sister’s very New Agey wedding on the beach in Florida — beautiful occasion — the celebrant asked the wedding party and guests to raise their right hands and extend their arms as part of a blessing. I was the only member of the wedding party giving the Vulcan salutation from Star Trek, but I saw another in the crowd.

        • David Allan Poe

          The North Dallas high school I went to in the mid-90s ended its football pep rallies with a rousing Hitler salute to the school flag.

      • Tyto

        That’s certainly an interesting take by that leader, because the official policy of the Scouts was and is the exact opposite, to the point that the uniform guidelines (used to–I don’t know now) specifically prohibit wearing any portion of a military uniform with the Scout uniform.

        To be sure, the shift of the headquarters from New Jersey to Irving, TX did not do great things for an already conservative culture, and policies regarding LGBT and atheist scouts were appalling for far too long. But Scouts for Equality, Robert Gates, and others have really done some great work in getting the organization closer to where it needs to be.

      • MacCheerful

        In my part of the country (Northwest) in my years, early 70’s, we weren’t religious or military, but just a bunch of kids who got together each week to learn knots and plan for weekend hikes. This idea that the Scouts had to live up to some moral idea was never part of the thinking really, beyond be nice to each other, to the extent that was possible among teenagers.

        Scouts got caught in the glare of the culture wars, and it sounds like the national leadership made the wrong jump, unlike the girl scouts.

        I recognize of course that in a large country, scout troops in other parts went off in different directions, but seriously it did not use to be universally understood that they had any particular ideology at all.

        • Tyto

          There still is not a universal ideology, though national policy has moved in the right direction. Going to National Jamborees and NOACs really brought home that aspects of Scouting in Southern California were very different from Scouting in Tennessee or Indiana.

          • BiloSagdiyev

            When I heard the new Trumpy news re. the Jamboree, I feared what some black BSA troops might have to endure at a Jamboree where the young RealMurkins are all hopped up on Toby Keithism and Trumpist “nationalism.”

          • guthrie

            Here in the UK scouting has been uniform right from the start, but also managed to follow the various cultural modernisations over the years, shall we say. So what I’ve heard about American scouting over the years has been odd to say the least.

        • BiloSagdiyev

          I had the same experience in the late 70’s, early 80’s. It varies from troop to troop. I grew up in a secular place and time, and was shocked when I found out some troops were affiliated (loosely?) with a specific church (I think… fuzzy memory.)

          Like with so many things, the far out fundamentalists nowadays find the BSA to have secular cooties all over it and have built their own organization, for maximum Jebus. I forget the name. Don’t care. I have little patience for these people and don’t want to hear from them until all fo the soda machines in their megachurches only take exact change. (That is, they should throw the moneychangers out of the temple)

          • Tyto

            It’s fairly common for troops/packs to associate with churches as their charter organization. Most large LDS churches sponsor a troop as a major youth activity. Heck, my son’s pack (now troop) meets at a nearby Catholic church, and the only close alternative is affiliated with a Presbyterian church.

  • Cranky Observer

    George Marshall left very little personal recording/reflection behind. While assisting my daughter with a research project I did find one reference from around 1946 where he expressed regret over locating 95% of the new military training centers and bases built to support WWII expansion in the Old South. He claimed he had done so to minimize construction time and cost and maximize outdoor days [1], but he realized by the end of the war he had isolated the military away from a large part of US population and culture. Later BRACs would reinforce this by e.g. closing all bases in New York City.

    [1] hmmmm. Of course Marshall was a VMI graduate.

    • Thom

      The cuts also resulted in closing all the bases in the SF Bay Area, where there used to be quite a lot.

      • postmodulator

        I always kind of assumed that unlike most areas with bases, California was happy to get e.g. Fort Ord back, because the Monterey Peninsula is such valuable real estate, but much of it is just a national monument.

        (I lived there for a year, which is why I took an interest.)

        • Thom

          Yeah, I think most people who didn’t work on the bases in the SF Bay Area were happy to see them go, and there were some great additions to park land, esp with the Presidio and Fort Cronkite.

          • postmodulator

            I wonder if they pulled up all the iceplant.

          • Cranky Observer

            Some if that land is still awaiting decontamination, but the point being when the Navy and DoD pulled up they went to Mississippi in the Old Confederacy.

      • BiloSagdiyev

        When it comes to some military installations, the need to defend our ports with coastal artillery or nuclear-tipped anti-aircraft missiles has, for the time being, gone away.

        http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/nyregion/02bnukemb.html

    • MikeG

      Bush/Cheney had a deliberate policy of closing/shrinking bases in blue states and expanding them in red states to reward their supporters.

      • wjts

        I remember a big fight in 2005 over the prospective closing of the sub base in Groton, CT, which is one of the only three major military installations I can think of in “the North” (Fort Drum, NY and Naval Station Great Lakes, IL are the others).

        • Hogan

          Fort Dix?

          • wjts

            Yeah, fair enough. Should probably add Wright-Patterson, West Point, and (for slightly arguable definitions of “north”) Dover, Andrews, and Ft. Meade.

  • This is a wingnut issue. My uncle has been posting for weeks about the 3.7 billion dollars that it will cost the military to do all the sex-change operations — I wish I was kidding. Somebody showed Trump PatriotPost.us or its equivalent.

    • Hell, 3.7 billion for every transition surgery sounds like a bargain, especially compared to how much it costs to build a few jets.

      • hellslittlestangel

        A three billion dollar penis might make the old six thousand dollar hammer scandal seem pretty tame, but remember that that penis has to meet military specifications (resistant to syphilis down to -20 degrees, erectable in 1.5 seconds during a tropical storm, etc.).

        • BiloSagdiyev

          And continually updated digital camo patterns.

        • woodrowfan

          and it when it become erect it makes that cool dut0dut0dut noice from “Six Million Dollar Man”

        • dmsilev

          “Gentlemen, we can rebuild him. We have the technology. Better than he was before. Better…stronger…faster.”

        • Karen

          This is the funniest thing I’ve read all day.

      • reattmore

        It would indeed be a bargain to transition all 1.5 million members of the armed services for a mere 3.7 billion.

    • Denverite

      The crazy thing is — even setting aside that most transgendered don’t get surgery — that it’s not even that expensive. I seem to recall from something I worked on years ago it’s in the $20k-$30k range (yep, checked google, that’s about right, now clear my browser history to avoid an awkward conversation), which is the cost of about a year’s college tuition. And the military would never pay that!

      • BiloSagdiyev

        The government?! Paying people to go to COLLEGE? That sounds like socialism to me!

    • FlipYrWhig

      That sounds like the answer to my earlier question of why he’s blathering about how much it costs. And it also sounds like a likely source: random internet crap, printed out and stuck under his nose.

    • Origami Isopod
  • N__B

    Motherfucker.

  • Joe Paulson

    “in any capacity” — as someone noted — is particularly broad

    The “thank you” is nice too. Who wrote that thing?

    • John Lahti

      “The ‘thank you’ is nice too. ”

      That jumped out at me, as well.

    • mausium

      An intern from Conservapedia Homeschool University?

    • wjts

      I was surprised by “transgender individuals”. I would have expected “the transgendered”, “transgendereds”, or “transgenders”.

      • FlipYrWhig

        “Ivanka, what are we supposed to call lady-boys now?”

    • Aaron Morrow

      Could be President Bannon or Vice-President Race Bannon. Both of those wings of the party will enjoy this.

  • Ross Hershberger

    If someone wants to be in the US military and is willing to go through the soul crushing ordeal of being ‘the transgender’ that everyone knows about, you want THAT person in your military. Because that’s commitment to the job.

  • humanoidpanda

    I’m only a detached coastal elite, but I think that beyond the moral disgrace, these are actually bad politics. One of Trump’s genuine assets was that people actually believed he was a live and let live guy on social issues, unlike the other republicans (he also pointedly avoided getting tangled in the bathroom wars in North Carolina). Picking a fight with a bunch of soldiers is really a bad move in that regard.

    • N__B

      Without discussing what his fans will think of this (because I have no idea), I think he proved that he didn’t give a damn about the optics when he repeatedly shat on Mr. and Mrs. Khan.

      • humanoidpanda

        It’s not about what he cares about or not though, it’s about politics. And politically, the impression that on the social stuff he is better than other Republicans helped him on the margins (I mean he literally wrapped himself in the pride flag..)

        • mausium

          And? That was for the media.

          • humanoidpanda

            So, distancing himself from “Social issues” was good politics for him.

            • Pete

              During the election and in the mass media, yes. But it’s 2017 now. Trump is a besieged, unpopular and incompetent President. The margins won’t save him.

          • Aaron Morrow

            There are a lot of people who don’t follow politics daily, who get their political information from the media. humanoidpanda is correct, rolling over the media helped Trump on the margins.

      • JKTH

        No, that was just a DISTRACTION from the…uh…absolutely nothing else that was going on in the campaign at the time.

    • Cranky Observer

      The apparently quite large faction that believes the United States does or should live under the constitution of Sparta will be very pleased however and they are not all Republicans.

      • humanoidpanda

        1. No, they are all Republicans.
        2. Gay marriage has 2/3 public support now, and gay military service probably way above that.
        3. In the only election in 2016 where trans issues were on the ballot, the Democrat won.

        • Cranky Observer

          Unfortunately, no, they aren’t all Republicsns; worship of hhe military cuts across our society. I’ll buy ‘most’ or ‘a majority’ but by simple counterexample it isn’t all.

          • humanoidpanda

            Well, yes, worship of the military cuts across our society. But that plays both ways: having trans soldiers as spokesmen is going to be a powerful message contra Trump.

          • Origami Isopod

            Undue deference to the military isn’t quite on the same level as believing we should all live under the constitution of Sparta.

      • farin

        I don’t think Sparta had nearly this many hangups about queer members of their military.

        • rm

          I think it was a requirement in Sparta.

          • wjts

            More of a Thebes thing, as I recall.

      • Karen

        Sparta actively encouraged sexual relationships between men; it supposedly enhanced unit cohesion.

        • DrS

          “Karen
          Sparta actively encouraged sexual relationships between men; it supposedly enhanced unit cohesion.”

          The results probably were a little sticky.

        • Cranky Observer

          Sure, but they also executed anyone who showed “disrespect” to a soldier.

      • Karen

        See also The Sacred Band of Thebes.

        • farin

          Thebans were all perverts anyway, though.

        • Mellano

          “I like soldiers who weren’t overwhelmed on the battlefield.”

    • Thirtyish

      One of Trump’s genuine assets was that people actually believed he was a live and let live guy on social issues,

      I….what? Donald “build that wall” Trump?

      • humanoidpanda

        Social issues, as defined by most Americans: gays and abortion.

      • postmodulator

        I figured he wasn’t bothered much by LGBT people; I figured no one who socialized in New York City could be all that bothered by them. The only thing I ever heard him say about gay issues before he started seriously running for president was an expression of annoyance that Malcolm Forbes expected everyone to maintain him in the closet. if you cleaned up his language, it was a statement that could have come out of Michael Signorile.

      • Yeah, some people certainly think this. Think the Times did a story of one such supporter…

    • mausium

      “One of Trump’s genuine assets was that people actually believed he was a live and let live guy on social issues”

      They still do, Trump doesn’t REALLY mean it, also McCaine is a Brave Maverick.

      Protip: these people dont and will never care. Their views haven’t changed. Support is unwavering among that crowd.

      • humanoidpanda

        Who are “that crowd” ?

        • mausium

          Whatever people were stupid enough to believe it.

    • Pete

      Not so sure its bad politics for Trump. His hard core base includes many more-or-less social conservatives, and stirring up culture wars reinforces our already tribal partisan divisions. he likely expects it to harden or build his support if only as opposition to his opponents.

      • humanoidpanda

        The thing is that we do know that there is a large, and growing band of republicans who are not hostile to gay rights. And the people who are hostile to gay rights are in his corners, regardless (Notice: Orrin Hatch had publicly lambasted him over these tweets, and he is no Susan Collins..)

  • Trump isn’t just discriminating against transgender service members because he’s scum. He’s scum who thinks he’s clever.

    https://twitter.com/MarkHarrisNYC/status/890208685749927937

    • FlipYrWhig

      Uh, this doesn’t seem like a particularly spiny briar patch to be thrown into. “The military is a place for the bravest among us, no matter what they look like, who they love, or what they believe. Trans people must continue to be able to serve openly, like African Americans, women, and LGBT people before them.” I don’t see any Democrat having a hard time saying that.

      • majeff

        Well, other than Colin Peterson perhaps.

        • FlipYrWhig

          Touche.

          • humanoidpanda

            Right. One could see how, say, bathrooms are a clever wedge issue (even though evidence on that is scant). Military service? In 1996, sure. 2017 really is different.

            • humanoidpanda

              And, to be blunt, the LGBT rights movement is well organized, well funded, and has people like Christine Beck to serve as spokespeople. This is not a good battle to go into when all you can muster on your side is Erick Erickson.
              http://www.thedailybeast.com/yes-to-lgb-no-to-t-the-pentagon-still-has-a-transgender-ban

              • This is not a good battle to go into when all you can muster on your side is Erick Erickson.

                Is there any battle plan at all that can be improved by mustering up Erick Erickson?

                • Aaron Morrow

                  I assume Trump has a battle plan that sounds like this:

                  “Killbots have a preset kill limit. Knowing their weakness, I sent wave after wave of my own men at them until they reached their limit and shut down.”

                • Light Rail Tycoon

                  Pickett’s Charge? Stalingrad?

                • humanoidpanda

                  If you have to escape the Gulag, it would be a good idea to bring erickson along , for obvious reasons.

                • wjts

                  The old story about the two guys and the bear comes to mind.

                • Hogan

                  CLARA: Why are you sharpening that stick?

                  MISSY: Well, I’ve no idea how long we’re going to be stuck out here.
                  Might have to go hunting.

                  CLARA: So why am I tied up?

                  MISSY: In case there’s nothing to hunt.

    • Abigail Nussbaum

      And since it’s always projection with Republicans, a reminder that one of their core accusations against Obama was that he was fomenting racial hatred and unrest.

  • LeeEsq

    Trump is just going to be the anti-Obama President. His entire motivation is to reverse everything Obama did during his Presidency.

    • N__B

      When he brings us back to the worst recession since the Depression, he’ll have won.

  • Hogan

    “My generals.” Uh huh.

  • SomeTreasonBrewing

    Disturbing. Greatly disturbing. Can’t support at this time. Need to see the details. Something something commander-in-chief. Conditional support. Vote for it.

    – Your Republican congressional caucus, soon.

    • mds

      Nah, most of them are slavering culture war shitsmears nowadays. So you can skip to the “vote for it” part for the majority of the caucus, especially in the House.

      • SomeTreasonBrewing

        In all seriousness, I expect this ‘military policy by tweet’ to be pretty unpopular across most of Congress. How would one implement the policy in any meaningful way without spending way more $ and taking way more time than would be involved in just letting people who want to serve serve?

        • mausium

          “I expect this ‘military policy by tweet’ to be pretty unpopular across most of Congress”

          Not in any way that would affect his or their chances of reelection.

        • slavdude

          He’ll probably follow it up with an executive order. It also seems to go against the recommendations of the top brass, who AFAICT have treated the issue of transgendered people serving as a non-issue, at least since gays have been allowed to serve openly.

          • Hogan

            Yes, but those aren’t HIS generals.

        • Just_Dropping_By

          It’s a stupid policy, but a quick Google search shows the total cost of DADT enforcement for 2004 to 2009 was estimated at only $193.3 million: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/20/AR2011012005764.html Budgeting is not going to be an obstacle to this unless Congress expressly prohibits using funds for such investigations/discharges.

  • LeeEsq

    Via a friend’s Facebook feed, a Trump official said that this is to force Democratic Senators in Rust Belt states to run on Transrights during the 2018 campaigns. It’s a combination of pure savage bigotry and poisoned pill campaign tactics.

    • All the current Trump voters will vote for him no matter what. Anyone willing to switch from the Democrats to Trump to stick it to trans folks was never a real Democrat anyway.

      I still say Democrats should run on a platform of sending Trump voters to their new luxury apartments in the heart of the sun.

      • Aaron Morrow

        Most people willing to switch from the Democrats to Trump to stick it to transsexual folks already switched from the Democrats to Trump to stick it to minorities and/or women.

  • woodrowfan

    does “in any capacity” include civilians and contractors??

    • Thom

      I would not think so. That would include, e.g. file clerks at Raytheon. I would assume that “in the military” means “in the military” even though DJT rarely makes a statement that is not false or misleading.

    • nominal

      There’s always been an argument that being LGBT is fine if you’re a file clerk and all, but not in actual combat. I think this is to let the base know even that ridiculous position is too liberal for Trump.

  • McAllen

    Can the left remember this shit next time we’re tempted to talk about how trans people are a neoliberal distraction or are trying to indoctrinate kids or trying to force lesbians to have sex with them or whatever? If we can’t stop the right from shitting on trans people it’d be nice to not get it from both sides at least.

    • Joe Paulson
      • farin

        That seems…dumber than usual. “By taking this aggressive stand on something no one was talking about, we prove other people are making a big deal out of it”? OK, boss.

        • It makes perfect sense if trans people give you the icks and the fears and you project that on everyone.

          • farin

            As always, projection fully explains conservative thought. I would’ve gone for a wedge that doesn’t leave my side ranting about gender identity while the other guys say “I support our brave men and women in uniform,” though. What are these fools paid for?

            • It’s Pense, I’d guess.

              But if you are deep enough in the ick hole, this wedge feels natural. And they have a story about costs and disruption etc. I’m sure they are feeling super clever: “We’re PAYING MONEY to force our poor boys in uniform to shower with EWWWWWWW!?!?!?!?”

              Bonkers, as well as evil, but there’s your Republican party.

        • randykhan

          Yeah. What in the world makes them think that Debbie Stabenow will make the “a key plank” in her campaign? I’m pretty sure she’s going to be talking about other things.

          • farin

            Key plank: “Protecting the heroes who defend our freedoms.” Man, that shit’s gonna sink her!

          • FlipYrWhig

            “When Debbie Stabenow starts talking about how the Republicans destroyed health insurance, conspired with Russia to manipulate an election, and tried everything possible to interfere with the investigation, we’ll hit her with how she loves tranny soldiers! Genius!”

      • postmodulator

        I like how there’s so few officials and they all speak fairly distinctly. Hi, Steve.

    • Abigail Nussbaum

      As someone on my twitter feed said, this is the sort of thing the people who complain about “identity politics” want to be able to ignore.

    • medrawt

      Yesterday in a thread elsewhere (AVClub review of the Inconvenient Truth sequel) somebody basically said “Democrats need to stop being so aggressive about climate change so that it stops being a partisan issue” and I had a stroke. I’m sorry at the moment I can’t remember which commenter here first articulated the idea that only Democrats are held as responsible for having agency.

      Meanwhile, it remains true that in the only 2016 election where a concrete dispute about trans rights was overtly one of the issues between the candidates, the bigot lost.

    • mausium

      “Can the left remember this shit next time we’re tempted to talk about how trans people are a neoliberal distraction or are trying to indoctrinate kids or trying to force lesbians to have sex with them or whatever?”

      What sort of Chapobro dungeon have you been stuck in?

      • FlipYrWhig

        Well, it started out with my bending my knee, but then I got carried away and forgot the safeword.

      • McAllen

        What sort of Chapobro dungeon have you been stuck in?

        Twitter.

        • mausium

          My goodness, I’m sorry :(

    • Veleda_k

      trying to force lesbians to have sex with them

      Fun times with the TERFs, I see.

  • malraux

    “There was a nine minute gap between the first and second tweets, suggesting to me that Trump was enjoying the drama that he was creating by destroying lives and careers.”

    Trump always seems to take a long time to compose tweets. 10’s of minutes to finish a thought. Its a long running pattern.

    • I assumed he was having an argument with someone else in the room over whether or not to use the word “tranny”. Or at least over how many “n”s it should have in it.

  • I thought the headline referred to McCain.

  • JPinner

    To spin this, and sort of play Devil’s advocate,: Won’t this save more transgender lives because they won’t be able to serve? I’m reminded of Bill Hicks “Here’s how I feel about gays in the military: Anyone dumb enough to want to be in the military should be allowed in. End of fucking story. That should be the only requirement. “

    • mausium

      As a similarly DA response, “do you similarly believe that women should be banned from being firefighters and cops because who wants their wives and daughters to ever be in danger?

      It’s for their benefit!!!”

      • JPinner

        That’s a fair point. If a serious war ever happened that required conscription, there would be plenty of people who would be clamoring for an excuse not to serve. In that situation the transgender folk would be happy about the ban. Klinger from MASH comes to mind.

        • addicted4444

          Yeah because there is absolutely no difference between not wanting to do something you are forced to do, and not being allowed to do something you want to do.

          • JPinner

            Yeah… you’re right… Perhaps my DA argument stems from my vehement opposition to the US military’s actions and the fact that I’d never serve, ever, unless it was a clear existential threat (which there hasn’t been since WW2).

            • farin

              I feel the same as you, but I suspect neither of us have ever been in a position to absolutely need an employer of last resort. That’s what’s especially pernicious about banning marginalized people from the military: they’re exactly the ones for whom it could be a lifesaver.

        • mausium

          And in that case the exception would disappear, or the Right would use forced labor of trans persons in factories etc, just not on the front lines.

          Consistency is not the regressives’ strong suit, and this is about removing civil rights as strategy, not “protection”.

          • postmodulator

            I have known an awful lot of transgendered persons who were cut off by their parents and lived in fairly dire circumstances. And now that I think about it, around half of the ones I know are veterans.

            • mausium

              Yeah, worrying about a job, let alone housing, let alone getting into a homeless shelter, let alone not being raped in a homeless shelter or on the streets, let alone not being murdered after being forced into sex work, I can’t imagine people even joke about taking away a potential future as any “mercy”.

              • JPinner

                Do you have any statistics on the number of transgendered persons (people?) that are homeless or on the streets? Or the number involved in sex work? I’m having trouble finding any. I know it’s alarmingly high, but I can’t seem to find any figures.

          • JPinner

            Do you think Trump is actually regressive in his mindset, or is merely occupying several news cycles with something controversial to distance the media from the Russia investigation (or his various other current controversies)? Certainly the people around him who likely suggested this are regressive.

            • mausium

              Yes.

        • DrS

          Klinger from MASH comes to mind?

          Fuck off

          • JPinner

            It’s sort of the opposite situation: a person who is not transgendered pretending to be in order to get out of the military as opposed to what could now be a transgendered person pretending not to be transgendered in order to get IN the military.

            • brendalu

              You know, this isn’t a joke, or a thought experiment. This is an unprovoked attack on one of the most vulnerable parts of our society. Do you think perhaps the devil has enough fucking advocates right now?

              • JPinner

                I’m only running through possible scenarios of justification or spin in my OP. And here I am stating that it is not unlikely that people will try to sneak into the military and hide the fact that they are transgendered which is a 180 from years ago. Similar to McCain coming back to Senate to do an anti-Ted Kennedy. We live in a messed-up timeline.

        • Veleda_k

          You realize we’re not sitcom characters, right? We’re real, actual people.

          • JPinner

            Hm? Of cousre.

            • Veleda_k

              Then maybe, just maybe, don’t compare us to a fictional character who feeds into the “ha ha, men in dresses are funny” smear. We’re not funny men in dresses, we’re not here for your amusement or your though experiments. We’re not here to give you something to think about, or to vent your distrust of the military. We’re not here for you. And if you’re not going to be helpful, you can get out of our way.

              • JPinner

                You missed my point. I was only stating the absurdity of how we’ve gone full circle and then halfway around again in using that as a means to get in or out of the military. I wasn’t really referring to the character in any way other than that. I apologize if it seemed in poor taste. I’m on your side, trust me.

                • Veleda_k

                  I’m on your side, trust me

                  Then fucking prove it. I have no time for cis people who tell me what allies they are but can’t be bothered to actually listen. Unless you actually help, you’re on no one’s side but your own.

                • JPinner

                  Why do you assume I’m cisgendered? That sort of presupposes and imposes an identity on me. My behaviors, my sexual and romantic attachments aren’t considered normal for “men”. I dated a transgendered person for a year and we had a wonderful relationship. I learned that generally people just want to be treated normally and generally as the gender to which they identify without making a big deal about it.

                • Veleda_k

                  Oh my god. Oh my god. You… you don’t even see what an unbearable, blithering ass you’re being.

                  You don’t get any brownie points for dating trans people, you shit head. We’re not your ticket to cool progressive points. I don’t care what valuable lessons you took away from the relationship. And for fucks sake you’re not any less cis because you inflicted your presence on a trans person on a regular basis.

                  What a pity it’s too early to be drinking.

                • JPinner

                  It’s a bit insulting to state that a relationship was someone merely inflicting their presence on someone else. A person is a person first and foremost, that they happen to be a trans was besides the point and not that important in the relationship. I’m not trying to earn progressive brownie points whatsoever, if I was why would I post such an obviously DA-type post as OP? I’m predicting the types of justifications and responses we will see over the next few days as this news cycle breaks more, and attempting to generate the best rebuttals and arguments when I argue against the ban. Please don’t hate me for it.

                • Veleda_k

                  If you had the slightest scrap of intelligence, you’d know the right isn’t going to frame their defense that way. This is your own little game, and you admitted as much, that it’s about your issues with the military. If you wanted me not to hate you, you had every chance to listen to me (and others) and rethink your shitty ass thought experiment. You didn’t. Instead, you dug deeper every single time. You played the “Wah, you’re being mean by assuming I’m cis!” card. You don’t want to be hated? Try not being awful.

                • JPinner

                  There’s no need to be so combative. By assuming everyone you speak to is cisgendered unless they state or indicate otherwise, you seem to be promoting a normative state, no? You could have made your point without even using the word. I only played the card so to speak because you came and called me cisgendered in such a way, not knowing very much at all about me, as theoretically I could fall anywhere on the scale. At any rate, I don’t know for sure, but I could certainly imagine at least some people on T_D or pol (or Scott Adams) using some form of those defenses in trying to defend Trump and say he’s playing n-dimensional chess. I recognize it is a scary thing that Trump has done and it could be a slippery slope to some more extreme reactionary retreats from what Obama had started to push forward, but I don’t think I deserve to be hated on for exploring various points of view. I should have perhaps been a bit more cautious in my statements and prefaced it a little bit more, but it did spark some interesting points that I will be able to use in future arguments.

                • Veleda_k

                  I assumed you were cis because when someone starts spouting transphobic bullshit, I assume they’re a dumbfuck cis person. And I was right! But congratulations on doubling down on the whole, “It seems you are the real prejudice, ho ho.” Assholes just can’t resist that one.

                  You’ve treated this like a fascinating exercise from start to finish. Nothing is going to cure your smug condescension. The only thing you’ve accomplished is making me certain that however low my opinion of you, you will find a way to sink even further.

                  I need to remember you can’t teach a pig to sing.

                • Veleda_k

                  Related, the block button is great.

                • JPinner

                  I’d just like to point out that only one of us is calling the other a “dumbfuck” “asshole” “pig” “smug” “condescending” or “cisgendered”. Totally unnecessary to unleash such words in polite company. To torrent down such insults and zingers on someone when all I really did was theorize that perhaps one would be safer to not be in the military rather than in the military in these times, and then to lightly debate the merits of that for the demographic that was being excluded from the military. I’m really not sure how that in itself is transphobic. Again, I apologize for seeming as if I was belittling in any way with the comparison to a famous sitcom character, but rather just the absurdity that we will now have the opposite, once again, where people are concealing these facts in order to get in, rather than falsely project them to get out. I appreciate you calling me on my bullshit, but I wish you’d be a bit more diplomatic instead of calling me names.

                • wjts

                  I’d just like to point out that only one of us is calling the other a “dumbfuck” “asshole” “pig” “smug” “condescending” or “cisgendered”. Totally unnecessary to unleash such words in polite company.

                  I have been unfailingly polite, and you two have been nothing but rude.”

                • Veleda_k

                  Oh man, I blocked him, so I didn’t see this. Did he really play the old, “Cis is a slur!” card? He really is going for a bingo.

                • Origami Isopod

                  Shut the fuck up, you creepy concern-trolling asshole.

                  Rude enough for you?

                • Pete

                  It’s long been pretty clear that this blog isn’t actually polite company, more of a free fire zone.

                  But man, the point is that you really fucked up by “positing” that more discrimination against an already marginalized and oft-persecuted minority group with the intention and effect of further marginalizing them from key institutions in our society might actually be GOOD for them. That can only be done by someone not personally affected by the issue. [The Klinger comparison was also a very poor choice.] Then when called on it, you didn’t just say — “Damn. You’re right. I’m sorry, I was an idiot.”

                • JPinner

                  I should have been more upfront perhaps about what I was trying to do. I should have started with “Predictable defenses of Trump by those ex-Liberal alt-right types: 1) It’s keeping them safe 2) Less blood on their hands via the US military 3) It’s funny like the opposite of Kling 4) The military has a terrible sexual assault rate, the reversal is a good thing!” I feel badly for upsetting you (and for being called a shit head).

            • spencer_e9876

              Really, you might want to consider putting down the shovel now.

          • wjts

            You realize we’re not sitcom characters, right? We’re real, actual people.

            I’m not sure he does, given that he seems to think that there were many men who tried to get a Section 8 during Korea by putting on a dress.

        • If a serious war ever happened that required conscription, there would be plenty of people who would be clamoring for an excuse not to serve.

          This is probably true. But there would be plenty of people who volunteer (as we see now) and plenty of more who would ok with being drafted.

          In that situation the transgender folk would be happy about the ban.

          I hope you see how this is most straight fowardly read as “all transgender folk” which requires that trans people aren’t as patriotic or service minded as other cohorts. I hope you see why this is wildly offensive.

          Even if you just meant “the trans subset of people who are clamoring for an excuse not to serve” its pretty easy to see how even that is pretty offensive and wrong headed. Wanting an excuse not to be drafted doesn’t mean you’d be happy that the excuse was that you were a second class citizen who was inherently unfit. And it doesn’t mean you wouldn’t feel for other people like you who wanted to serve in the armed forces.

          Klinger from MASH comes to mind.

          Putting aside the grotesque absurdity of appealing to a fictional comic character as your exemplar of a demographic, Klinger wasn’t even a mem b er of that democraphic! He wasn’t trans (of any sort). He was someone feigning being trans conceptualised as a form of insanity.

          I hope if you reflect a bit, you’ll see why people like Veleda_k reacted so strongly against you. What you wrote was, even under a highly charitable reading, extremely, in your face, offensive. Your defensive reactions below exacerbate that.

          It’s a good time to apologise!

          • JPinner

            Okay, okay, the Klinger thing was out of hand, I don’t know why it came to mind. “He was someone feigning being trans conceptualised as a form of insanity [using it as a way out of the military]” and I was thinking of how this juxtaposed to how things could be with Trump’s reversal and other recent developments . OK, a terrible analogy, in poor taste, I admit it. I certainly wasn’t trying to intentionally make a slight or anything, I sometimes am distasteful and offensive, not intentionally, and I do apologize for it. If I knew people would be so upset and take it as anything but a poke at the strange backwards-day type reality we’re in, I would have omitted it. I certainly could have phrased my initial question more carefully instead of seeming like I was saying “you people”. I apologize.

        • Pete

          In my experience, soon after DADT was enacted, that was how those discharges were primarily being used (at least that’s how it was perceived) — administrative separation under DADT in response to “confessions” (truthful or not) by soldiers who wanted out. They weren’t common.

    • mausium

      For a sincere response the military is likely 100000x more safe than the sex work that keeps lifespan in the mid thirties for those trans individuals who need a job and support and a plan. Trans persons get killed on the street, the military protects them from worse Americans.

      • JPinner

        Counterpoint: I’ve read that “at least 25% of U.S. military women have been sexually assaulted, and up to 80% have been sexually harassed” and I can’t help but think the numbers for transgender would be similar or worse. Although, your point stands, still marginally better safety than the street worker lifestyle.

        • mausium

          As i said, the threat of rape and consequences are far minimized compared to civilian life.

    • Veleda_k

      Speaking as a trans person (who, to be clear, never ever wants to serve in the military), I don’t need my choices taken away from me in order to protect me. That’s infantilizing.

  • Really awful and grotesque.

    • And of course it makes it sound like there aren’t already trans service people. From the Rand report:

      There Are an Estimated 1,320–6,630 Transgender Service Members in the Active Component, but Not All Will Seek Gender Transition–Related Treatment

      It is difficult to estimate the number of transgender personnel in the military due to current policies and a lack of empirical data. Applying a range of prevalence estimates, combining data from multiple surveys, and adjusting for the male/female distribution in the military provided a midrange estimate of around 2,450 transgender personnel in the active component (out of a total number of approximately 1.3 million active-component service members) and 1,510 in the Selected Reserve.

      Only a subset will seek gender transition–related treatment. Estimates derived from survey data and private health insurance claims data indicate that, each year, between 29 and 129 service members in the active component will seek transition-related care that could disrupt their ability to deploy.,

      So these will be purged? This is not disruptive?

      Awful.

      • Pete

        It’s hard for me to believe this will actually become policy, as opposed to a random brain fart. But a lot depends on what Mattis says to Trump about it in the next few days.

        • Apparently what prompted this is some House members trying to get an amendment defunding trans specific healthcare. This got distorted into a total ban by Trump. Where we end up? Who knows. Probably not a full ban.

  • Considering what happened in North Carolina and Texas, I don’t think this is a wise for move for Trump and the Republicans politically.

    2012: Pre-Bathroom Bill Controversies
    Harris Co. (Houston) D, 49.39%; R 49.31%
    Texas overall: D, 41.38%; R 57.15%
    Mecklenberg Pres (Charlotte) D, 60.68%;R 38.22%
    NC GOV: D 43.2%; R 54.6%
    NC Overall (pres): D 48.35%;50.39%

    2016:
    Harris Co. D 53.95%; R 41.61%
    Texas overall: D, 43.24%; R 52.23%
    Mecklenberg Pres (Charlotte) D,62.29%;R 32.89%
    NC GOV: D 49.0%; R 48.8% (Trans bathroom bigger issue than national election)
    NC Overall (pres): D 46.17%; 49.84%

    Republicans lost share of the vote bigly everywhere (except NC statewide Pres, where they still lost vote share) that trans rights was an issue, both statewide in traditionally conservative states, and especially in the cities/counties where it was a flashpoint.

    • in general, NC only cared about the issue because it cost them sports events and concerts.

      • Still; sports events and Bon Jovi concerts are a bigger concern to conservatives than this. If you’re building your midterm strategy on that you’re an idiot.

        • if the national GOP decides to make an issue out of this, where are sports and concerts going to boycott ?

          DC? all of America?

          • Districts whose representatives support it?

            Again, the point is this isn’t something that motivates marginal Republican leaning voters. When you’re the in party during a midterm election, the only important thing is motivating marginal, your-party-leaning voters.

  • They are not YOUR generals, you fucking troll.

    • Mike Hoyer

      In fairness we don’t really have any idea who he’s talking about. I think it’s perfectly likely that Trump is consulting with a group of far-right militia leaders who have given themselves the title of “General”. Or even just a group of consultants he calls Generals because “Czar is too communist”

  • Drew

    No doubt in my mind that most other Republicans would have done the same as President (Cruz, etc), but to tweet it like this, good grief.

    • farin

      Cruz, yeah, because he’s an honest to Moloch theocrat, but I bet most of the others would recognize the dubious political payoff. Kicking queer people is great, kicking The Troops less so.

  • Dr. Ronnie James, DO

    As ever, the most damning thing about this will be to show in detail the persons affected by this stupid, cowardly, nonsensical and inhumane act. Trans service people and their families may seem unsympathetic to his base in the abstract, but once we see their faces, it may be a different story.

    • I really think there is little evidence that the good Christian people who fawn over Trump give two shits about Transgender people, other than eradicating them, whether they see their faces or not.

      • Dr. Ronnie James, DO

        Sure. But not every Trump voter is a “good Christian” of the type you identify (ie those who use the Team Prince of Peace identity as just another truncheon). But I know a fair number of Trump voters who specifically said they though he *wouldn’t* be as dogmatic about LGBTQ issues (via selective listening mostly). Trump’s approval rating has gone quite negative, even in Rust Belt states he won. There’s good reason to believe at least some Trump voters are souring on him. Plus it’s also just the right thing to do…

        • The right thing to do would be to have never voted for him in the first place, so I’m not sure how they reconcile that.

        • humanoidpanda

          No less importantly, I’ve met a number of non-voters, Stein/Johnson voters who used the “Trump is not really a republican and doesnt’ hate gays” argument to rationalize their decision. (another big one was: she is gonna win in PA anyway..).

          • Dr. Ronnie James, DO

            Yeah, there was literally a Trump voter profile (African-American, lesbian) who said that exact thing, followed a few sentence later by “…Mike Pence said what?! [pause]

  • Steve LaBonne

    Thanks yet again, Stein and Johnson voters.

    • farin

      You think trans people would have been safe from the horrors of EMAIL MISMANAGEMENT?

  • Ash

    That Trump. So good for the gays! [pukes]

  • Lurking Canadian

    Didn’t the NCAA apply some pressure to NC after their bathroom bill? If we could get the NCAA to boycott every state with a military base because of this, that would turn shit around right quick.

    Oh, and I forgot the obligatory: Christ what an asshole.

    • farin

      They gave it up after Texas pushed the same kind of bill I believe.

      • Paul Thomas

        Texas hasn’t passed its version, as there seems to be a split in the legislature between the actual fascists in one chamber and the merely reactionary in the other.

    • NCAA, NBA and a lot of big-name concerts.

      a recent study shows that, overall, the yearly NC tourism $$ numbers went up anyway.

  • Off-topic, but is the “real” in “realDonaldTrump” real as in real estate, or real as in Real Madrid?

  • cat butler

    Wait, I just realized this asshole said “my generals” like they’re his personally or something.

    • The Weeping Cheeto

      He means some “general” he saw on Fox.

    • Steve LaBonne

      He thinks the entire government is his personally. He’s not down with that whole “government of laws and not of men” thing.

      • postmodulator

        I am virtually certain that Bannon or someone had to tell him multiple times that he could not fire Congressmen, Senators, or federal judges.

    • So he didn’t mean the New Jersey Generals?

  • aardvarkcheeselog

    my Generals

    Nice touch that.

    • Bub, the cynical zombie

      Die Vereidigung der Wehrmacht auf Adolf Hitler, 2.8.1934
      “Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid, daß ich dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes Adolf Hitler, dem Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht, unbedingten Gehorsam leisten und als tapferer Soldat bereit sein will, jederzeit für diesen Eid mein Leben einzusetzen.”

      The Wehrmacht Oath of Loyalty to Adolf Hitler, 2 August 1934
      “I swear to God this sacred oath that to the Leader of the German Empire and people, Adolf Hitler, supreme commander of the armed forces, I shall render unconditional obedience and that as a brave soldier I shall at all times be prepared to give my life for this oath.”

  • Synykyl

    Trump’s proclamation was a transparent attempt to change the subject from Russia and health care. I wish could say it was a futile attempt, but I’m not so sure it was.

    • Paul Thomas

      Pun intended?

      • Synykyl

        No. It was an accident. Next time I use it, it will be intentional though ;-)

  • Richard Gadsden

    Probably took him most of eight minutes to type “Transgender” on his phone. Is eleven letters the longest word he’s ever tweeted?

  • Jake the antisoshul soshulist

    I saw $2.4 million as an estimate of any additional cost for transpeople in the military. Compared to the $84 million spent for boner pills annually.

  • Origami Isopod
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