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It’s always been raining in Castamere

[ 142 ] June 7, 2013 |

We probably don’t need to talk too much about the content of “The Rains of Castamere,” if only because I said most of what I wanted to, content-wise, in the podcast. Instead I’d like to focus on how the director, David Nutter, used the confusion created by Michelle MacClaren in “Second Sons” to great effect during the Red Wedding. If you haven’t read the books or watched the ninth episode of the third season, I highly recommend you stop reading this right now. As you remember, MacClaren’s means of shooting Tyrion’s wedding in “Second Sons” was one part (hers) misdirection and one part (the character’s) indiscretion. Everyone was a spectacle-in-waiting or a secret-about-to-be-told, but no one was talking to one another. Even the actual attempts at communication — Tywin’s conversation with Tyrion and Joffrey’s failed attempt to hold the floor — weren’t communicative, to the extent that when Tyrion finally revealed what his (modified) intentions were, there was, as I noted in the first post, “a real potential for chaos.” The lesson of the episode is, in short, that when no one’s communicating honestly, honest communication becomes impossible. Everything becomes a performance and the most convincing performer — in this case Tyrion — wins the wedding. All of which is only to say that Tyrion’s wedding consisted of jealously guarded secrets and innuendos, as opposed to the Tully-Frey wedding, in which everyone is open about everything.

Beginning with the attractiveness of the woman who isn’t the bride:

In a sense, this is a classic medium long shot of the “plain américain variety, in that it mimics the Western’s imperative to have everyone visible from the tops of their hats to the tips of their guns — except in this case the gun is Robb Stark’s sword. Point being that this is traditionally an “honest” shot used by directors to indicate that the characters have nothing to hide. They’ve shown their opponents what they’re packing and now a firm assessment of relative armament can be made by characters and viewers alike. In this case, it demonstrates how anemic the Stark complement within the banquet hall seems. In the light that’s filtering down from off-screen right, only Robb’s sword seems visible. It’s significant that in an episode that will — as I’ll argue — be characterized by requited gazes and general openness, the lighting in this scene indicates that the Starks have something to hide. The white light coming in from frame-right leaves the right sides of their faces in shadow and almost makes it seem as if they’re planning something nefarious, which is ironic both for the obvious reason and because, at this particular moment, Robb’s being chastised by Walder Frey for bringing Talisa to what should have been his wedding:

Frey’s half-lit face is also suspect, only more so, because Nutter frames it in a medium close-up. When a group of six people are all “victims” of the same strong off-screen light source, the general effect is that there’s a large off-camera lamp or window. It’s innocuous. (That’s why “almost” is in italics up there.) The only way to make them actually seem nefarious would be to exaggerate the effect like so:

Had Nutter shot the Stark clan with such extreme contrast, they’d look genuinely secretive and dangerous. But he didn’t. And the fact that in this scene they’ve bucked common sense and not only allowed Talisa to accompany them, but that they’re allowing Walder Frey to inspect her, means that the single off-screen light source is naturalistic in these medium long shots. But it’s absolutely expressionistic when the camera reverses to Frey:

Even though Nutter pulls back into a medium shot, the fact that Frey’s the only person in frame and that shadows cover half his face make him look like a man of dubious motives. It’s a basic yet effective principle that one-shots, like the ones of Frey above, tend to be read as psychologically indicative of something in a way that similarly lit shots of groups don’t. Of the many reasons for this are that our brains consider gangs of people inherently menacing, whereas when we encounter a single person, his or her motivations are a matter of specific divination. A different part of the brain’s engaged when we’re trying to evaluate the danger potentially written on an individual face, so these one-shots of Walder Frey invite us to consider him as a singular agent and the shadows falling over half his face make it seem like he’s hiding something. Because he is: he’s hiding his face. Even if you haven’t read the novels, the way in which Frey’s shot as he discusses the “pertness” of pregnant Talisa’s breasts should alert you that the conversation isn’t the only thing that’s inappropriate here.

So too should your memory of Tyrion’s wedding. Remember that McClaren’s first shots of it were deliberately confusing: the audience wasn’t allowed to see who sat where or in relation to whom. But at the Tully-Frey wedding, Nutter canvasses the room via the plate of bread and salt intended to secure the Stark’s safety:

As that plate moves about the room in a fairly long take, we’re able to see the relative locations of all the major players. We know where everyone is and that they’re relating to each other in a conventional “medieval” hierarchy: the Lord takes the high seat even in the presence of the King of the North. That should tell us something too — that Frey’s requiring his nominal King to act the part of supplicant, which is understandable given these particular circumstances but contradicts conventions set up elsewhere, as in “Winter Is Coming”:

The Queen sits beside the Lady of House Stark, she doesn’t stand before her, as Frey demands of Robb. Speaking of whom, and because I am trying to break your heart, here’s a random image from “Winter Is Coming”:

What can we say in the presence of the child who be King? Only that his position relative to his mother and Queen Cersei is as appropriate here as it is inappropriate in “The Rains of Castamere.” That Robb isn’t this Robb and shouldn’t be treated as such, or at the very least should be suspicious when he is. Frey’s trying to infantilize the King of the North, and because he believes he’s wronged Frey, Robb offers this small social humiliation as a kind of physical apology. So as things stand the audience should be acknowledging Robb and company’s attempted humility before a literally shady Walder Frey, and because of the broken bread that’s traversed the room, should not only be secure in the Stark’s safety but also aware of the slightly inappropriate location of the significant characters relative to each other. The ostensible openness of this wedding is a direct invocation and inversion of Tyrion’s, but as we well know, the bile undermining this visual candor will bubble up soon enough. Just not before Nutter reminds us that everything is fine:

This shot’s representative of how the banquet’s framed. Instead of families staring each other down off-frame from opposite ends of the hall, Nutter captures all the celebrants in establishing shots like this, which for the purpose of this episode work like a cheap magician’s sleeves: you can’t see what you know’s up them. The shadows falling on Frey’s face and his defiance of decorum should’ve alerted you to his base intent, but Nutter’s framing of the banquet reassures you that man who pointed over there and yelled “Squirrel!” isn’t engaged in misdirection. I won’t subject you to another episode of Game of Lasers, but I assure you that everyone’s making eye contact with the appropriate people. Frey threw Robb one knowing glance when the beauty of the bride was revealed, but other than that, when people are talking to each other, they’re talking to each other:

Everything must be fine because everyone’s behaving like humans engaged in natural conversations. Be it the three-shot of Catelyn talking to Bolton or the four-shot of Robb and Talisa talking about Catelyn talking to Bolton, everyone at this wedding is making appropriate eye contact.

Did I say “everyone”? I meant almost everyone. Remember what I said earlier about our human disinclination to trust gangs of people? The Starks fought that instinct by turning toward Frey and offering him their full faces. He could make eye contact with any of them as per his desire. This lot with the musical instruments? They’re not making eye contact with anybody — not even each other. And they’re being shot from an empowering low angle. And they’re focusing on their instruments with the deadly intent of incompetent amateurs. All of which are indications that something’s afoot at this otherwise open-seeming wedding banquet. The tension builds between Nutter’s direction and what half the audience knows is coming, but it should also disquiet the half that doesn’t. Because Nutter’s not even a cheap magician. He’s the replacement magician your father hired when the first one showed up stoned: he’s trying to disguise the birds in his lapels by pulling coins from your ears but he isn’t fooling anyone.

You what’s coming.

Even if you don’t.

Because this is what foreboding feels like. This is the look on your lover’s face the moment before she reveals she’s betrayed you. This is crack in your father’s voice the moment before you learn your mother’s died. This is that moment and it is terrible:

Catelyn sees those doors shut and realizes she’s in such a moment. She’s quickly coming to terms with what that means — like Diane Keaton at the end of The Godfather, only Catelyn knows that she’s not being barred from so much as locked in with the monsters.

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  1. SEK says:

    For some reason, people always seem to be reluctant to be the first person to post on these, so I’ll get the ball rolling:

    1. I’m over-analyzing everything like a spaz.

    2. We’re suffering from RW fatigue.

    3. tl;dr

    • any moose says:

      Its because they’re posts about camera framing on a mostly political blog, come on meow

      • any moose says:

        I mean I’m not saying don’t keep doing them

      • SEK says:

        Its because they’re posts about camera framing on a mostly political blog, come on meow

        But it’s my bag, man. And anyway, they’ll be somewhere else, god’s willing, shortly. (Not that I don’t love it here, just that like the rest of the front-pagers, I may on occasion be linking to what I write in the future, in what’s probably the worst-kept secret in history.)

        • Rhino says:

          One of the main reasons I read LGM is that it isn’t just a political blog. Frankly, if the politics was all that was left, I wouldn’t be here.

          I hope for many years of visual rhetoric posts, football arguments, and all the other delightful flotsam that washes up around here.

    • Liam says:

      You forgot about how experienced craftspeople make creative choices instinctively, which somehow negates the possibility that they have ever spent time on detailed analysis of the technical aspects of their craft to learn how to make those choices.

  2. aimai says:

    I love these posts. I loved the books but couldn’t get into the series on tv–too horrifying. But I love to read your analysis and see the shots formed. I’ve learned a lot.

  3. Just a few thoughts to add:

    - if the Tyrion/Sansa wedding was unnatural in that something that was supposed to happen didn’t (two families were supposed to come together and be united, happily), here the unnaturalness is what was not supposed to happen did (the host is not supposed to murder the guests, it’s poor manners).

    - if anyone knows the Greek term for missed connections in tragedy that we forgot, I’d love to know, because it’s slowly driving me mad.

    - in terms of foreshadowing: one of the things book readers complained about was that the Red Wedding lacked the sense of forboding that something was very wrong that the book had. In the book, the pretty young bride is crying, the band is really loud and BAD (because they’re crossbowmen pretending to be musicians and because the music is supposed to mask the sounds of slaughter going both ways) and it’s giving everyone a headache, etc. The show decided not to go that way, but instead you got a split thing going on: for the readers, everything leading up to the moment was ratcheting tension like the initial ascent on a rollercoaster; for the show-watchers, it hit out of the blue.

    However, if you can bring yourself to rewatch the episode, you’ll see there’s foreshadowing everywhere. Walder Frey saying “you shouldn’t have brought her here,” “the wine will flow red and the music shall play loud,” etc. Roose Bolton showing up out of nowhere with a Frey bride and actually smiling for the first time ever (and think about the sick shit that makes this family happy). Robb and Talisa naming their baby Live Forever Eddard, and of course, the song…

    - Scott kind of steered the conversation away from the song in the podcast, but when you see Catelyn staring up at the musicians on the balcony, and when you realize why they took time out in the last episode to really spell out what the song was about, and why when we heard the song for the first time precisely one season prior, we got this exchange right after:

    Varys: I’ve always hated the bells. They ring for horror, a dead king, a city under siege.
    Tyrion: A wedding.
    Varys: Exactly.

    The show has been setting this up a long, long time.

    • Sherm says:

      I agree with the foreshadowing, especially in light of Catelyn’s prior warnings regarding Frey’s disposition and Robb’s decision to marry Talisa. I never read the books and have avoided spoilers, but I saw that ambush coming a mile away.

      Bolton’s role in this past episode has confused the shit out of me. How the hell did the Lannisters get to him (assuming they did), and is it his bastard son who has been torturing Theon Greyjoy?

      • 1. Think about what Tywin’s been doing on camera this season.

        2. Think about the visual iconography of Theon’s scenes this season.

      • The Tragically Flip says:

        What confuses me about Bolton’s role is why he’s needed? Frey and the Lannisters seem perfectly capable of pulling this off themselves. What did Bolton add to the conspiracy?

        • WetWatBarleycorn says:

          The Freys don’t have an army in the North. The Boltons do.

          That’s why the Boltons are necessary.

        • Ville Vicious says:

          He brings a powerful army to take control of the North, especially after most remaining northern lords have their forces severely depleted during the current fighting.

        • Now that the King in the North is no more, the Lannisters need a Northerner to help them win on the ground control in the North.

        • Anonymous says:

          In the books, he’s needed because the Freys are as useless as nipples on a breastplate. There are just a lot of them around, whereas Bolton was one of the standout commanders of Robb’s army.

          Tywin would be all about courting him to his side. Plus, he’s the lord of one of the big houses in the North. Frey is some crazy dipshit that nobody trusts who was born into good real estate.

          Sooo, getting a good commander, and a lot of throw-away dudes that nobody cares about as shock troops is an excellent deal for the Lannisters.

    • rw970 says:

      The whole Edmure-Roslin relationship confounds me. She was in on it! They’re going to need some serious counselling, at least.

      One interesting counterfactual is that if the RW had turned out differently, and Edmure died, but Catelyn lived, Catelyn would be the next Lady of Riverrun, in her own right, with Robb and his heirs inheriting after.

      In short, Robb has great yichus.

      • Dave says:

        Counselling, ha! These folk are medieval, in the canonical Pulp Fiction sense…

      • Murc says:

        One interesting counterfactual is that if the RW had turned out differently, and Edmure died, but Catelyn lived, Catelyn would be the next Lady of Riverrun, in her own right

        You’re sure about that? Catelyn is a woman. It wouldn’t go to Brynden instead?

        • Anonymous says:

          Succession laws aren’t totally clear, but what we know suggests that outside Dorne they generally work more or less by male preference primogeniture, in which sons precede daughters, but daughters precede brothers.

          I could give some examples, but they’re mostly spoilery.

          • It’s ambiguous. Sometimes it goes to the daughter and sometimes it goes to the brother, and it depends on the political and military situation at the time.

            • Immanuel Kant says:

              What are examples of it going to the brother, besides the Iron Islands Kingsmoot, which is clearly in defiance of mainland custom?

              All the examples I can think of (SPOILERS!!!!! – Karstark and Lannister are the main ones I can think of) seem to show preference for daughters over brothers.

      • The Tragically Flip says:

        How sure are we that Edmure is alive?

        Seems to me Frey made a point of saying that bedding the bride was required to complete the wedding, if Edmure is killed without doing that, Frey gets his maiden daughter back to remarry as needed.

      • Well, Roslin didn’t have a choice in the matter.

    • SEK says:

      Scott kind of steered the conversation away from the song in the podcast

      See! I knew you were bitter! (I apologized for that after the podcast, for the record.)

    • Hogan says:

      - if anyone knows the Greek term for missed connections in tragedy that we forgot, I’d love to know, because it’s slowly driving me mad.

      Some version of hamartia, maybe?

      • SEK says:

        Maybe. As I noted in the podcast, I need to revisit my Paul de Man, as that’s where I learned it, I’ve just been too busy wrapping up the quarter to do so. I’ll ease Steven’s mind by the time the next podcast rolls around.

    • Sly says:

      - if anyone knows the Greek term for missed connections in tragedy that we forgot, I’d love to know, because it’s slowly driving me mad.

      Hamartia? Literally translated, it means the shot that misses the bullseye.

      And I would wholeheartedly agree that Americans, by and large, do not understand tragedy. Particularly this kind of tragedy because the good-hearted hero is always supposed to triumph even though (and especially when) he’s an idiot.

  4. jh says:

    I’ve read the books, so I knew what was coming, but the idea of Roose being the one to kill Rob ruined the scene for me. Roose may be a psychopath, but he is also a politician. He lives in the north, and no one that lives there would ever forgive him for the deed. If he has any aspirations for more power, he would have been as far away from that as possible. It was like the Little Finger thing with Ned. He would not have wanted to be seen as the one to turn on him just to keep his options open.

    • While you’re not wrong, I think you also need to recognize that feudal politics are not medieval politics. Roose doesn’t need the support of a majority of the population in order to rule, he just needs to have more military strength than anyone else to keep the rest in line. And most of the lords of the North were at the Red Wedding or are trying to fight off Ironborn raiders.

      Roose is a politician, he did this out of a very finely calculated risk-reward analysis, and we’ll see what he’ll be getting out of this in the future.

      • rw970 says:

        I think Walder Frey’s caclulus here was wacked. I get he was dishonored by Robb, but some perspective is warranted.

        1. The Freys are accursed, and it’s pretty much open season on them.

        2. The only way he can get marriages now is by using the power of the Lannisters.

        3. If he thinks the Lannisters are the kind to stick behind him when the whole realm hates him, he hasn’t been paying attention.

        • IM says:

          Isn’t there a Tywin – Tyrion conversation there Tywin explains that he will blame everything on these wacky Freys and points out that Walder Frey is to much motivated by his grievances?

        • 1. Yes, the Freys are accursed, but who’s around to “open season” on them?

          2. True, but that’s not a bad thing to have. We’ll see if it happens in the show, but Walder definitely is angling for some Lannister marriages.

          3. Very true.

        • Tom M says:

          I’m pretty sure there a Lannister-Frey marriage as part of the RW deal. Devan Lannister, a cousin of Jaime has to marry a Frey.
          Also, Cleos Frey has a Lannister wife, Lancel marries one as part of the deal etc.

      • Duvall says:

        Was it widely known how much the Boltons were involved in the Red Wedding? I guess getting named Warden of the North was a pretty big clue.

        • There’s that, his marriage to Fat Walda, and the fact that he’s the only Northern lord unscathed by the entire affair.

          It’s not like there weren’t Northern soldiers who ran away during the fighting, or Frey soldiers and servants who didn’t gossip afterwards.

    • David Hunt says:

      Some thoughts about Bolton and his presence. I’ve only read the first book, but I suspect that Bolton didn’t have any real choice about being there. I don’t know the mechanics of how he coordinated this particular piece of treachery with Frey and Tywin, but he obviously did and I trust the writers know how they did it in at least the bold strokes. Given that he was an integral part of the betrayal, there’s loads of reasons why Bolton had to be there.

      1). His men were needed for the slaughter to take place in as one-sided a fashion as it did and his actual presence was needed to make sure his part of the army followed the script. Robb and his men outside might have been reluctant to let Frey’s people sit close to them either due to caution, social choices, or lack of camaraderie. Bolton and his men are part of Robb’s army. They can mix in among his army and start slaughtering since the men of Robb’s army are, nominally, the Bolton men’s comrades. They’ll sit down and drink with his men and not see the knife coming. “Oh no, Mr. Nameless Umbar Bannerman, I can’t drink any more. Lord Bolton frowns on that and I guarantee that he won’t be drunk. Here, have my drink.”

      2). Bolton’s personal absence from the wedding would have been noted. Almost the Lannisters’ whole strategy in this part of the war has been to avoid engaging Robb’s forces. He doesn’t have a good excuse to avoid it and Robb is bringing most of his most trusted lieutenants. Bolton not showing up would have been a Red Flag. Also, I can’t see him delegating the actual management of the betrayal his men in the camps bring about by taking part in the slaughter. He’d want the men running that to be people her personally knew and briefed. If he isn’t there, those men would have to stay ignorant and be victims instead. As I wrote in point 1, that would make the slaughter a fair amount less one-sided, but more importantly, it would get his own forces killed. They’re important military assets and he also can’t have his own troops under the impression that he’s willing to simply throw their lives away it he’s paid off. He might order some them to die in some action that’s a military necessity, but it’s the opposite of smart for the guys guarding your life to know that you sold out guys who are just like them. At some point, they’ll even be guys who cousins were part of the group that was sold out. Bolton needs these men to keep power in the North.

      3). Most relevant in my opinion, I’m certain part of the deal that Bolton struck required him to be there and to actively participate. Frey wouldn’t have surprised me by requiring that, but I’d be shocked if Tywin hadn’t made certain that Bolton had to burn his political bridges behind himself here. Tywin does not want to leave Roose Bolton thinking that he might be able to claim ignorance of the whole plot and take up the mantle of King of the North using Robb Stark’s image as a martyr to rally the North under his leadership. The last thing Tywin wants is another King of the North. He wants the North under a Lord Paramount who will bend the knee to King Joffrey and drive the Ironborn back to their islands. His active participation in and public support of the murders and whatever spin they invent to cover up Frey’s unspeakable betrayal of the guest right tradition will tie him to the royal interests. Frey will likely be claiming that Robb was the one that started the whole thing, and if Bolton isn’t spouting the party line immediately and loudly, he’ll never make it out of the Twins alive.

    • Jordan says:

      It is actually strongly hinted in the books that Roose Bolton is the one who kills Rob.

  5. DocAmazing says:

    the Tully-Frey wedding, in which everyone is open about everything

    Especially their circulation.

  6. kindness says:

    What happened to the groom at the Red Wedding. He was out of the room when the ‘happening’ happened.

    Having not read the book I just don’t know. Who has a spoiler for me?

  7. SEK says:

    Also, if you like this post, vote it “up” or whatever on Reddit. I’m mostly just curious to see what’ll happen if you do. (More commenters? More trolls? Empty hits? I don’t know.)

  8. rw970 says:

    SPOILERS

    I also think it’s funny that Melisandre’s killing kings with leeches plan doesn’t help Stannis at all, and actually makes things harder.

    (1) Robb was the greatest threat to the Iron Throne, and kept the Lannisters focused on the Riverlands and the North, and not on Dragonstone. Moreover, Robb is also the King most likely to bend the knee to Stannis, and has no designs on the Iron Throne itself, and not much of a yearning for independence, either.

    (2) Balon Greyjoy is kind of irrelevant. If anything, having the Ironborn strong is helpful to Stannis, as it’s one more distraction for the Lannisters.

    (3) Killing Joffrey is not helpful at all. The real power in Kings Landing is Tywin Lannister. If anything, killing Joffrey makes things better for the Lannisters because Tommen is so much more malleable than Joffrey. Killing him removes the possibility of the psychopathic child-king screwing up everyone’s plans. Also, Joffrey is deeply unpopular in the realm, but everyone loves Tommen.

    • rw970 says:

      The fact that Melisandre doesn’t try to kill Tywin makes me think she’s not so much killing Kings as seeing that they’re going to die, and taking credit for it.

      • Gregor Sansa says:

        I think that she does have a certain power to change events, but it’s limited by a fairy-tale logic. I mean, I don’t think the leech thing would have worked if she just said “Susie Flowers”. It needs the target to be Important; a pretender king.

        And as for helping: yes, it does help her. It further convinces Stannis of her power. In order to actually get him onto the throne, she has a different plan, one which I expect will yet succeed for a brief shining moment before Stannis and she both die horribly.

        • Aaron B. says:

          one which I expect will yet succeed for a brief shining moment before [NAME] and [NAME] both die horribly.

          Gasp! Unpossible!

        • Anonymous says:

          If she has any power to influence events, it’s hard to see Robb’s death as having anything to do with that, given that it’s the result of preparations which have clearly been underway since long before the leech business.

          • JMP says:

            And BIG SPOILERS FOR SHOW-ONLY PEOPLE the plans to kill Joffrey were also underway well before the leeching – Dontos first approached Sansa at the end of Book 2 – and probably for Balon as well, given the implications that Euron had him assassinated.

            • Immanuel Kant says:

              Yeah, basically. I think the very strong implication in the books is that Melisandre sees the future in her fires, but that the leeches really don’t do anything.

        • Kent Brockman says:

          I think that the fact she used Royal Blood means it can be used to protect the things that are Royal.

      • Precisely. The difference in rituals between this and Renly are telling signs.

    • Aaron B. says:

      What is helpful to Stannis, and the ends that Stannis pursues, are two entirely different things. He seems to disdain practical things merely because they are so. He’s even worse than Ned, and the opposite of Littlefinger – so obsessed with “things as they should be” that he is utterly helpless to deal with things as they are.

      • rw970 says:

        What’s most frustrating about Stannis that he’s so inconsistent in what he chooses to care about at any given time.

        He vacillates between DIE, TRAITORS!!! and JOIN ME, TRAITORS!!! and his concept of justice is both ridiculous and selective.

        Some guy who’s a smuggler saves yours and thousands of other people’s lives? Reward him, but also chop off his fingers!

        Actual big time pirate agrees to continue pirating, but for you? Make him Lord of the Narrow Sea!

        A loyal lord doesn’t want you to burn his gods? Burn him!

        A bunch of your lords betray you for your brother, but then want to join you after you kill your brother? Welcome aboard!

        I don’t mind him not being principled – pragatism is a value, after all. I mind his insistence and everyone else’s agreeing with this point, that he’s the most rigid, principled guy in the world.

        • I disagree. Stannis is utterly pragmatic about means – hence his speech about Proudwing – but completely devoted to his ends.

          And he’s pretty consistent – the good doesn’t wash out the bad and the bad the good, but each to their own reward.

          The lords who bent the knee to him when Renly died? He was pretty clear about them getting their just deserts when he no longer needed their armies.

    • IM says:

      Also, Joffrey is deeply unpopular in the realm, but everyone loves Tommen.

      Careful. The viewpoints characters – with the sole exception of Cersei – loathe Joffrey and like Tommen. And so we readers follow them. But that just means that a few dozen or hundred people at court share that perspective and therefore that feeling.

      Even in Kings Landing that is more problematic: As pointed out to Tyrion, the city hates him, not Joffrey.

      And the realm just sees another Lannister child king; not much difference here.

      • rw970 says:

        I mean in the sense that everyone who’s had experience with either comes away (1) liking Tommen; (2) hating Joffrey. Even Cersei knows that Joffrey is a little shit. It’s recommended several times that Joffrey be “put aside” for Tommen – so much so that there’s a good reason to think Tywin was complicit in his death.

        Also, I’d put money on the bet that more people would end up hating Joffrey by the end of a Joffrey Reign, than would hate Tommen by the end of a Tommen reign.

        • Sherm says:

          Hey! No spoilers please.

          • Anonymous says:

            I’d say that my general feeling would be that if you don’t want spoilers for books that have been out for a decade, you should be careful to only read comment threads that have explicitly posted spoiler policies. But maybe that’s just me.

            Basically – it’s the responsibility of the person who wants to avoid spoilers to avoid them.

        • IM says:

          That is true but we are only talking about a few people here.

          It’s recommended several times that Joffrey be “put aside” for Tommen – so much so that there’s a good reason to think Tywin was complicit in his death.

          quite plausible.

          Also, I’d put money on the bet that more people would end up hating Joffrey by the end of a Joffrey Reign, than would hate Tommen by the end of a Tommen reign.

          Well Joffrey’s reign has ended and how many people in westeros do have an opinion on him? In the present moment Tommen the child-king and Joffrey the child king is the same vague concept for 99.9% percent of the population of westeros.

          • wjts says:

            I think rw970 meant it as a counter-factual: (spoilers) if Joffrey had lived and ruled into adulthood, he would have been despised as Aerys. Tommen, from what we’ve seen so far, doesn’t seem likely to incite that same sort of hatred.

            • IM says:

              True, Aerys at least had the sense to let Tywin rule for him.

              But this started with a discussion if a replacement of Joffrey with Tommen is an advantage or disadvantage for competing king Stannis now.

              rw970 argued that is was actually an disadvantage because Tommen is more popular. I pointed out that popularity with the readers of the books and viewers of the series don’t translate to the fictional universe. (Or at least should not. On the others hand fan favourites like Arya and Tyrion are still alive, so…)

      • Sherm says:

        Not sure if I agree with your assessment. You seem to have forgotten the rebellion in season 2 and Joffrey’s fear of going out in public. And aren’t most people in the realm aware of the “rumors” regarding the identity of his actual father?

      • Barry says:

        Remember, though that ‘people think’ here applies more to the 1% than to the 99%. If the guys with swords, horses and/or money hate somebody,……..

        • IM says:

          Most of the lords and knights have never seen Tommen or Joffrey in person.

          They did meet eventually e. g. Robert so it did actually matter the Robert was much more charming then Stannis. But both child kings are ciphers now.

          • rw970 says:

            By this point, I’d say Joffrey is a known entity. Among the literate classes, word gets around. The consensus is that Joffrey is a shit, even among people who haven’t met him. Guy will never inspire any loyalty. I’m not saying Tommen will, but at worst, Tommen is a non-entity. Seeing as the blond Baratheons are really just puppet figures for the Lannisters, Tommen is a much better king than Joffrey.

      • Joffrey is somewhat unpopular with the smallfolk of King’s Landing, although they displace a lot of that onto Tyrion the “demon monkey.”

        The main issue with Joffrey is that he’s sadistic, paranoid, and egotistical, which makes him unreliable and destabilizing. Tommen is biddable and therefore consistent.

        • Gregor Sansa says:

          Exactly. The problem with Joffrey isn’t so much what he’s already done, though that’s bad enough; it’s what you can never trust him not to do in the future.

    • Murc says:

      Robb was the greatest threat to the Iron Throne, and kept the Lannisters focused on the Riverlands and the North, and not on Dragonstone.

      Uh. You’re gonna have to unpack that one.

      Robb was literally the only person (well, okay, also Balon) NOT trying to seize the Iron Throne all this time. Renly, Stannis, Daenerys, and Joffrey all styled themselves King (or Queen) of the Andals, Rhoynar, and First Men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms.

      Robb did not. Robb was the King In The North. He had no desire to sit the Iron Throne or even come anywhere near it.

      • Heron says:

        I think what he’s saying is that, out of the Iron Islanders, Stannis, and Robb, Robb was the most significant military threat. He didn’t want the Throne, but he did want to avenge his father’s death with those of a choice few Lannisters, and since they sat the Throne, he was a threat to it.

    • 1. On the other hand, Robb wanted to take the North out of Westeros. And with him dead, Stannis is gaining thousands of Northern supporters who are fervently anti-Lannister.

      2. Not from Stannis’ perspective. To him, the realm is one, and Balon Greyjoy made it bleed, from Deepwood Motte down to the Shield Isles.

      3. It’s absolutely helpful, because it sets in motion the destruction of House Lannister’s unity later on.

  9. Domino says:

    OT for this but GoT related – I’m not a book reader, but is anyone else somewhat still nagged by what that veiled women w/ the tattoos said to Jorah in season 2 in Astapor? I actually went back to re-watch that scene, and now can’t help but feel that was a key part of foreshadowing.

  10. DocAmazing says:

    I miss the eye-lasers.

  11. actor212 says:

    I thought the diametric opposition of the red wedding with Tyrion’s drunken fit was intriguing and in such close proximity to each other (TV chronologically). I agree, more was told by Frey in his glances (SEK, you didn’t mention the half-leer Frey gives when the wedding takes place and the bride is unveiled. That was a precursor that he was planning something untoward) than was spoken at Tyrion’s wedding in toto.

    • SEK says:

      I’ll take advantage of the fact that we’re long-beleaguered foes of the same asshole to be one myself and note that I did, in fact, write “Frey threw Robb one knowing glance when the beauty of the bride was revealed.” It was mentioned!

  12. Uncle Ebeneezer says:

    This lot with the musical instruments? They’re not making eye contact with anybody — not even each other.

    Maybe they were just losing themselves in the jam, man. Waiting for the laser show and all…

    Jokes aside, interesting post and podcast. I was one of those viewers who totally didn’t see any of this coming. I actually like the fact that no character is safe in this series. It makes it way more suspenseful. That said, I was surprised that so many important characters would be snuffed out in a single scene. Can’t wait to see episode 10.

  13. Trollhattan says:

    Good stuff, again. Was one of the fortunate/unfortunate/thick-as-a-brick who didn’t know what was coming, but after Frey’s hollow offering of forgiveness and then the leisurely pulling off the spider’s legs with his pervy appraisal of Talisa, certainly knew the evening wasn’t heading for a happy outcome. Was orders of magnitude off with just how unhappy. As it played out (and played out, and…) I thought of the swine abattoir scene in “Food, Inc.”

  14. Leeds man says:

    Reminded me of the last 15 minutes or so of Last of the Mohicans.

  15. What I found fascinating in this episode was how well Frey kept up pretenses. Yes, he acted like a complete jerk – but that is how he normally acts. Anything nicer would have been suspicious. I especially thought his knowing leer to Robb after the beauty of the bride was revealed was perfect. To me, it said, “Yes, I’m upset with this non-royal marriage and I could have forced a less attractive bride on your relative, but, look, I’m not so bad, I’m getting past the insult – I’m offering one of my beautiful daughters to seal the deal.” It was exactly what the lecherous Frey would have done if he wasn’t planning the RW.

    • Immanuel Kant says:

      It was also a “You think all my daughters are hideous? You could’ve had this gorgeous one,” vibe to it. But yeah, what’s great about the Red Wedding is that Frey acts more or less exactly like he would if he wasn’t planning a monstrous betrayal.

  16. Julia Grey says:

    TOTALLY SPOILERY

    for the readers, everything leading up to the moment was ratcheting tension like the initial ascent on a rollercoaster; for the show-watchers, it hit out of the blue.

    Not entirely. You guys have been hinting all along that major characters were going to be offed, and Robb had screwed up right and left politically and the Talisa love story was getting sappy and boring, so I figured one or the other of them was going to have to get killed soon, probably Talisa, maybe so that Robb could make some other mistakes or go mad or make another crazy alliance. Jon and Ygritte were another hopeless couple, so Ygritte was going to have to be peeled off one way or another. Then there was the the whole [forest girl] and Rickon tag-along thing that needed to be resolved. Finally, I had heard rumbles that something really bad was going to happen in that episode. So I was prepared for something deadly to occur to a beloved character. I was tense the whole time.

    But I got really tense at the wedding, just as Kaufman says, because everything was so obviously “too okay.” I kept remembering Walder Frey saying that line about “I would have broken a thousand oaths in my day to get into that,” and what that said about his sense of honor(talk about your foreshadowing!). When the Starks did not join in the “bedding” procession and were left behind in the banquet hall, even before the doors shut, I KNEW it was coming and that it was going to be Talisa, because of that sappy conversation about widdle Eddard in her womb.

    So I was almost prepared, biting my fingers, but ready. Ready-ish. Until they had to go and stab Talisa in the stomach. Shock. Nausea. Can’t breathe. I mean, okay, you can kill her, but NOT THAT WAY, y’know? (In the cold light of several succeeding dawns I’m over it. Understand the narrative necessities, Terror and Pity, yadda yadda.)

    And then they go and shoot Robb AND Catelyn too.

    O. mi. gaud.

    And then the pleadings, the mother’s desperation to get her child to listen to her, the hostage-taking, Walder’s indifference to his wife, the throat cuttings….

    It wasn’t just all the Grand Guignol that got to me. It was Catelyn’s face as she realized the import of the closing doors, that her family was about to be betrayed….wow. Some astounding acting in this episode. Her final murderous scream, before the knife came across her own throat, was like nothing I’ve ever seen. And Anya, watching the ignominious demise of the poor innocent wolf. The eyes in that incredible face. Sheeeeeeeeze. Where do they GET these kids?

    I’m assuming this is the point where Anya goes “bad” (as you’ve also been hinting — but I don’t want to KNOW).

    • Sure, we’ve been making it clear that “something bad going to happen,” but show-only watchers seem to have been genuinely shocked, from what I’ve been able to absorb of the online reaction.

      But that’s the thing – whether you knew something bad was coming or not, it still hurt in its own way.

      • SEK says:

        But that’s the thing – whether you knew something bad was coming or not, it still hurt in its own way.

        I’m really not sure how people missed this. I think the thread’s just generally about the episode — and that’s fine, I don’t mind — but I was pretty specific about the role of pre-awareness here:

        Because this is what foreboding feels like. This is the look on your lover’s face the moment before she reveals she’s betrayed you. This is crack in your father’s voice the moment before you learn your mother’s died.

        I’m not sure how much more plainly I can state that this episode was as painful for those who knew what was coming as it was for those who didn’t. The sympathy those of us “in the know” feel for Cat as she turns around isn’t any less painless — and in fact might be more painful, because known, because tragic — than the surprise that those unacquainted with the novels felt. I’m sort of responding to the wrong comment here, as both you and Julia are spot on in your assessments of its rhetorical effect on its respective audiences, but it’s something that, although I already wrote it, needs reiterating.

        • Julia Grey says:

          I’m told the audiences for Greek tragedies all knew what the story was and how it ended before they went into their amphitheaters, yet they still reacted with the requisite terror and pity and got their catharsis.

          If you watch a tragic movie or read a tragic book more than once, it’s a different experience the second time around, but knowing doesn’t remove the pain.

          What interested me about all those secret recordings of reactions that we got on that horrible YouTube mashup (but I watched it, did’t I? Damn me. ) was that so many of the men just sat perfectly, perfectly still, not making a single sound. Can I assume that they were in on the gag and that’s why they were so eerily non-reactive? It gave me the creeps. Not only was there someone in the room with them having hysterics, they were watching something that reg’lar folks have been cheering and applauding in slasher films, so they could have gone that way with it, too. Were they … paralyzed?

          I don’t know what I did or said (except that I didn’t scream and fling myself out of my chair or cover my head with a blanket), but I verbalized, and my husband, too, at least said some things like, “gaud” and “jeziss” and such. Normal things, to my mind.

          Who were those people who made ambush films out of people’s reactions, anyway, and then sat there totally expressionless and unmoving while blood and horror gushed on the TV and their companions screamed and wailed?

          Jeziss, indeed.

  17. Mayur says:

    I’m really confused by this. Are you guys really indulging this deeply in the polite fiction that we don’t already know what’s happening two books’ worth of narrative out?

  18. Dave says:

    I do think it’s a remarkable achievement of GRRM to get people so interested in what is basically a calque of the realities of medieval history, absent both the actual significance of real history and the conventional narrative rewards of epic fiction. But then, he is nobody’s bitch.

    • SEK says:

      the conventional narrative rewards of epic fiction

      Because Lord knows, there’s not enough of that having been around for the past entire history of recorded fiction. Sorry, but whatever cultural capital you think you get for using the word “calque” is undermined by pining for “epic fiction, like it’s always been done.”

    • Gregor Sansa says:

      He’s nobody’s bitch

      Do I detect another Rosemary Kirstein fan? She’s the author of the Steerswoman series, which is another trope-subverting quasi-medieval-setting series in serious danger of never finishing. In her case, the series has been coming out so slowly and for so long that some of the transgressive twists in the early books have become cliched tropes of their own in the decades since. And she once wrote a blog post defending an author’s right to do things besides finishing a series they’ve started, which was entitled “George R. R. Martin is not your bitch”.

      The steerswoman books are among my all-time favorites. The setting seems to accumulate extra premises at a bit too high a rate, and she’s better at hinting about mysteries than resolving them, but I care about the characters, the action, and the philosophy, and the crowning moments are pure awesome. I recommend them to any Martin fan (which means, to anyone with a high tolerance for unfinished series.)

      If the “bitch” thing is just a coincidence, it’s a remarkable one.

    • I think a lot of it has to do with GRRM’s skillful use of limited first person narration to build up characters that we empathize with.

      But it also has to do with the fantasy genre as it stood at the time – then and now, huge gobs of it were trapped in a stale formula handed down from Tolkein in terms of how the worlds looked and what kinds of narratives got told. GRRM started a new movement within the genre, what could be called revisionist or deconstructionist fantasy: think Joe Abercrombie, R Scott Bakker, with Tad Williams as an early forerunner.

      • Immanuel Kant says:

        What’s Michael Moorcock, chopped liver?

        Certainly there’s always been a lot of terrible, derivative fantasy literature, but I feel like the novelty of Martin’s vision is always being exaggerated. I’d add that focusing on Tolkien misses the whole American sword and sorcery tradition going back to Robert E. Howard, which has always been rather independent of, and different from, the Tolkien tradition. In particular, sword and sorcery has generally depicted an actively amoral and corrupt world.

        I’d say that, in general, Martin’s novels owe more to sword and sorcery and actual medieval history and historical fiction than they do to Tolkien. The world of Westeros and the War of the Five Kings and so forth is essentially a pastiche of medieval history. The Essos/Dany material is close to pure Robert E. Howard or Fritz Leiber style sword and sorcery. Khal Drogo literally was Conan. The Jon/Wall material has elements of both. But there’s nothing much that resembles Tolkien. I suppose you might make comparisons to the sub-Tolkien hackwork of someone like David Eddings or Terry Brooks, but even that feels like a giant stretch.

  19. Peter K. says:

    Michelle Fairley did such a wonderful job all three seasons. Madden as well. That’s what made it tough for me even though I had read the books.

    Think back to Fairley’s scenes with Sean Bean, with Bran, and Sansa. Travelling with Rodrick Cassell and Tyrion. Exchanging oaths with Brienne. Glowering at Jaime. Talking and laughing with her uncle, the Blackfish. Their world is such a harsh, cruel place – “Winter is coming” – that the Stark’s basic goodness and honor is such a contrast and set in relief.

  20. JazzBumpa says:

    You’ve gone to considerable length comparing and contrasting the RW with Tyrion’s, and in the podcast you mention in passing that Walder Frey is Craster with money. Good points.

    I have this half-assed idea that every big event in the story is an echo/reflection/inversion of another big event in the story.

    In the RW, guest-host protocol is violated by the host. In the melee at Craster’s it’s violated by the guests

    The first book is devoid of fantasy elements except at the beginning with the White Walkers bringing icy death in the prologue and dragons coming to life from a funeral pyre in the very last sentence.

    Ned justly beheads a traitor from the wall, later gets beheaded unjustly as a traitor, with his own sword , and never makes it to the wall.

    Perhaps it’s true of characters as well. With all their wanderings, could cold-blooded Arya Stark be the negative image of Daenerys Targaryen?

    Cheers!
    JzB

  21. [...] we left off, Catelyn was in the act of recognizing the terribleness of her moment. At 37:38 in the podcast, [...]

  22. [...] been brought to my attention that the two posts I’ve produced about “The Rains of Castamere” were written under the influence of [...]

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  24. […] a servant girl. The point director Alex Graves is trying to hammer home here is that — in case you forgot …read […]

  25. […] servant girl. The point director Alex Graves is trying to hammer home here is that — in case you forgot — that the Boltons are vicious and terrible people. Ramsay Snow is hunting this woman for […]

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