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It’s Happening

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TrumpCare moves forward. A few notes:

  • Saying that “this is just a vote to debate” is the 2017 equivalent of “I wasn’t voting for the Iraq War, just authorizing Bush to decide.”
  • I don’t think passage is inevitable, by any means, but they’re probably better than 50/50. Portman has never been a viable target for a meaningful nay vote, and Heller and Capito — who are outright liars — just gave up their votes in exchange for nothing. What’s going to be different when it comes time to vote on the next version(s)?
  • John McCain choosing to deliver some outtakes from a failed Aaron Sorkin pilot after casting a vote enabling exactly the procedural irregularities he pretend to oppose was a truly disgusting insult to people’s intelligence. Alas, it still works on the reporters who will never stop fawning over him.
  • McConnell is an incredibly malign political figure, as bad for the country as John Calhoun was. But three Republican votes could have stopped this use of an undemocratic process to move forward on a revoltingly inhumane bill. They all own it.
  • Act as if this can be stopped. There are still multiple votes to be had. Don’t stop fighting.
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  • LK234

    Should I feel bad for hoping that McCain passes peacefully in his sleep tonight?

    • (((advocatethis)))

      No worse than I feel for wishing it had happened last night.

    • Gregor Sansa

      No. But you should feel bad for not feeling bad.

      In other words, “I hope he dies” shouldn’t be out of bounds, but it should be something we’re a little bit apologetic about. Never apologize for treating idiots like idiots, or for calling human monsters what they are; but do apologize for treating them like literal monsters rather than like humans.

      • LK234

        Yeah, I think that’s well said. On the one hand, I do feel gross for wishing that Meghan McCain’s father will be taken from her sooner.

        On the other hand, he’d be spared terribleness of chemotherapy and an agonizing death, the taxpayers will be spared the $$ for his treatment, and we’d all be spared his hypocritical sanctimonious Senate floor speeches and votes.

        • Erik Loomis

          If only McCain felt gross for all the fathers he will be taking from their daughters earlier than it should happen.

          • MikeEss

            Other people don’t matter to Rethugs, unless they are rich, so their daughters don’t matter to Rethugs either. Heartless, soulless, and repulsive…

            • MLD

              And of course the daughters only matter if they’re VERY attractive…

              • MikeEss

                …goes without saying…

        • Bill Altreuter

          On the other hand, think of all the fawning obits. We are going to get those soon enough, of course, but reading them now, in the wake of this particular pusillanimus display would really be too much

      • Actually I don’t feel apologetic, but furious that they have degraded us to this state.

        • Gregor Sansa

          That works, too.

      • david spikes

        Hey, if you don’t hate people enough to wish them dead then you’re not a very good hater.
        The only thing I would feel bad about if McCain were dragged under a bus would be having to listen to the Village’s bull about what a great statesman he was and how much we’ll all miss him.
        By the way-did you know he was a POW?

      • Latverian Diplomat

        The real question is, perhaps, what’s wrong with our system that one conceited old fart with a track record of dishonesty and political opportunism can make such a difference to what happens to so many people

    • GoBlueInSF

      No. I think that’s quite kind of you. I hope he passes painfully in his sleep tonight.

      • TopsyJane

        It is quite kind. I wished him a painful passing in another thread, something I’ve never done before, and somehow I can’t feel bad about it, particularly after his performance today. In fact, I reiterate it here. May all the top-notch medical care he is receiving be for naught and may he die slowly, painfully, and full of fear, thinking of the people he did his best to condemn to unnecessary pain and affliction, financial worry, and possibly early death.

      • kaydenpat

        LOL!! While having a nightmare about Palin.

      • Chet Murthy

        With all due respect to GregorSansa, I don’t feel bad for wanting him to suffer horribly for the rest of his days from unutterable pain so severe he longs for the sweet relief of death. Because he IS a monster, a literal monster. Of course, I wouldn’t wish for any human to do this to him, b/c that would inflict the sin of commission on that human; no, I want the FSM to reach down with his noodly appendage and inflict it. Divine providence, as it were.

        • GoBlueInSF

          From your lips to the FSM’s orecchiette.

        • Adam

          And when he dies and goes to hell, I want him to go through the exact same thing, except without heath insurance because some asshole named John McCain took it away from him.

      • From where I’m sitting right now, Designated Survivor looks positively utopian.

    • Adam

      Nope, I hope he has a long painful death will being treated as the absolute soulless monster that he is.

      • Snarki, child of Loki

        Dear Senator McCain! You are in my thoughts and prayers.

        “Thor? Lightning bolt. You know who I mean.”

    • ASV

      If he dies tonight, they have a replacement sworn in by lunch tomorrow.

    • kaydenpat

      So many have said that but he’ll probably live to a ripe old age. It’s not as if his vote should have surprised anyone. This is who he has always been.

      • petesh

        His old age is already pretty ripe

        • Prodigy two years max, and may his death be as undignified as possible.

    • jlk7e

      Better that he stays alive, but unable to vote. His replacement would be a yes vote on everything, most likely

    • Marlowe

      What the hell would it matter? I assume the right wing governor of Arizona (some non-entity named Ducey; I just looked it up) would immediately appoint a new senator who would not only be a sure vote fr whatever McConnell wants, but would likely even be worse than McCain. Though I guess that at this point, that would mean voting exactly as McCain does but replacing the faux concerns and furrowed brow with standard Tea Party/Trumpist rhetoric. Oh, and at least the new senator wouldn’t get the ridiculous fawning reverence that the media gives to McCain.

    • Philip

      I’m treating it as a practice run for the day I find out the Reaper is coming for Kissinger

  • themann1086

    The past 24 hours have sucked. My bird died last night, too. Just… I’m just so fucking tired, you know?

    • Karen

      That sucks. I am very sorry for you and for what little it’s worth, you’re in my thoughts and I hope things get better.

      My best friend’s debit card number was stolen and used by someone in Tajikistan — seriously, fucking Tajikistan — to get a bunch of cash. Her credit union is treating her right about it, but it’s been an awful day or two. For the whole world.

    • I’m so sorry.

    • kaydenpat

      ((themann1086)). What kind of bird was it? I have three — one African gray parrot who talks when she feels up to it and two budgies who just chirp around. Sorry to hear of your bird’s passing.

    • stepped pyramids

      I’m sorry about your bird. I used to live with finches (cute, fecund, fairly short-lived — so basically flying mice) and a quaker parrot (smart, affectionate, lots of personality). Birds can be lovely companions.

    • Brownian

      I’m sorry.

  • Domino

    You mean life doesn’t follow an Aaron Sorkin plot? That will shatter a few people’s worldviews.

    I honeslty don’t get how galactically stupid some of the DC press corpse member are. McCain votes to trash political norms, then you go starry-eyed because he then turns around and gives a speech bemoaning the trashing of the norms he just destroyed? What is wrong with you? How are you that easy of a mark?

    This really pisses me off because Ben Sasse is already existing in the exact same space and will occupy the whole time he’s in the Senate. He will vote the party line his entire career but because he gives an occasional speech decrying one of Trump’s actions he’ll be hailed as “the spirit of McCain”. Garbage human beings, all of them.

    • LeeEsq

      There are ordinary people on my Facebook feed, people who should know better, that are praising McCain’d speech.

      I was incidentally in the same building and on the same floor as McConnell’s Louisville office in the Federal Building today. It did not seem busy at all.

      • kaydenpat

        Well, he did state that he wouldn’t vote for the nonexistent bill as it nonexists now so that’s something.

      • I am ranting a bit too much at a good friend who is praising McCain’s speech. They are coming around but that bullshit went down real smooth for a lot of people.

    • BigHank53

      You think management is bad, never looking past the quarterly numbers? Imagine having to be a reporter that works for one of those soulless MBAs, needing to come up with a snappy lede every other day. Your operating horizon would be Tuesday, and you’d love John McCain: whatever else you want to say about the man, he could produce a good pull-quote.

      That’s why the media fawns over him.

    • Latverian Diplomat

      The white house press corps is not chosen for their intelligence, integrity, or clear eyed view of the facts.

      • I’m still at a loss for what they are chosen for. Obsequiousness to authority?

  • brad

    I don’t mean to kink shame, but I still have to ask. Why do so many reporters seem to love watching old men masturbate in public?

    • Aaron Morrow

      Probably related to the fact that so many reporters (and their bosses/management) are comfortable older men.

  • randomworker

    Well, the doddering pussygrabber called McCain a “hero” on Twitter so it’s all cool.

  • The Republican party has become a right wing embodiment of Charlie Sheen’s incoherent, coked out “Winning” thought spasms circa 2011.

    • Latverian Diplomat

      And very possibly elected by whoever it was that was watching Two and a Half Men?

  • DamnYankeesLGM

    There is no chance in hell John McCain votes no on any final bill. Are people insane? Why would anyone believe this? He hasn’t even been one of the 10 or so waverers on BCRA, has he?

    • Gregor Sansa

      But there is a chance that he isn’t able to vote either way!

      • But his replacement could. In extremis, his replacement could be in DC ready to accept the office and take the oath. Hey, the Republicans are competent at some things.

        • MikeEss

          Republicans are naturals at doing evil…it’s doing good where they fall apart. I’d bet some of them are even hoping McCain won’t make it to the next vote, which, if true, will no doubt make a lot of media types very sad…

    • reattmore

      He said today he would not vote for the bill as drafted

      • spencer_e9876

        He’s said a lot of things that turned out to be bullshit over the course of his career.

      • mausium

        But he did anyway.

    • Pete

      He was counted as a waverer on BCRA at one point. Talked about how the procedure sucked and he couldn’t vote for a bill put together that way.

  • LeeEsq

    McCain can’t even get the genre right. He’s pretended to be in a Sorkin pilot while we are really in the legislative equivalent of a World War I movie.

    • wjts

      The paths of whoring lead but to the grave.

      • Pete

        Ah, but so do the paths of enlightenment.

        • mausium

          Death before enlightenment, apparently.

  • SomeTreasonBrewing

    National pressure just means nothing to these people. Whatever targeted pressure that can be effectively applied in Nevada, Wisconsin, West Virginia, etc… is about all that is left at this point. And that assumes Collins and Murkowski hold the line with their free passes.

    • Yixing’s Fluffer

      I don’t see why Collins and Murkowski wouldn’t stay no, especially after Trump attempting to humiliate them again today. McCain proved that only women, and really only 2/5 of them, can stand firm against His Orangeness.

      • SomeTreasonBrewing

        I’d think that as well, but he just embarrassed Heller, to his face, on national television, sitting right next to him, last week.

        • Yixing’s Fluffer

          Heller chose to snap up a cushy lobbying gig, most likely. I wonder how this will affect Sandoval.

          • ExpatJK

            I wonder if he’ll even try to defend his seat in 2018

            • Yixing’s Fluffer

              Might as well give it a go. He can get his PAC to soak up a bunch of plutocrat cash and then re-route it to himself if he loses.

        • Ithaqua

          I think some waverers voted “yes” as a “John McCain Goodbye Tribute”, not because they actually intend to vote “yes” on any actual bill offered up for vote.

      • fd2

        Yeah, Murkowski’s already proved she doesn’t need the party, and Collins wants to be governor of Maine, which McConnel can neither help nor hinder her with.

        I thought we had a solid shot at three because of Heller, but I guess James Wynn swings a bigger dick in Nevada politics than Sandoval.

        • jlk7e

          Steve Wynn

    • kaydenpat

      This is just more proof that there are no moderate Republicans. They know quite well that at least 22 million people will be kicked off Medicaid but they go right ahead with the process anyways. They really could care less about average Americans.

  • DamnYankeesLGM

    I genuinely don’t understand some of these people. Why are you knowingly letting McConnell play you? If you are Lee or Cruz or Paul – or on the flip side Capito or Heller or Murkowski or whatever – you *know* that there’s no possibly bill that will satisfy all of you. Why would you vote to leap into a situation where you *know* for a fact your leader will have to fuck over one of you? What makes you confident you won’t be the one screwed over? How can you trust this person?

    Say what you want about Reid or Pelosi, but they never did this, as far as I’m aware. McConnell just plays with and disrespects his caucus members, and they don’t seem to care. I don’t get it. If Senators are one thing, they are arrogant. Be arrogant, for Christ’s sake. Have some pride. Just as a person.

    • It’s a perverse love of Russian Roulette/musical chairs and the knowledge that no matter what wingnut welfare awaits.

    • GoBlueInSF

      They believe they won’t lose the Senate in 2018. They believe most of them will retain their seats – and if one or two lose, they will make it up with seats they take from the Democrats who have a lot of seats up for grabs in red states. And they believe they will keep control of the House as well.

      And sadly, they are right.

      • Gregor Sansa

        Not if they pass this POS they aren’t. Remember, there will be 2 seats up for grabs in AZ. Normally, it would be very hard to take both of them; but with this monstrosity passed, and premiums going through the roof for everyone (even the group market will be affected, because there will be second-order adverse selection effects), that becomes a real possibility.

        • DamnYankeesLGM

          Remember, there will be 2 seats up for grabs in AZ.

          …are you just assuming McCain will be dead or resign by then?

          • Gregor Sansa

            Statistically, it’s very likely. Median survival for what he has is about 18 months, and for the last 6 of that you are in no condition to be flying to DC and voting. And given McCain’s age, I think his chances could be even worse.

        • Doesn’t AZ have a same party senator fill out the entire rest of term?

          • ExpatJK

            Nominated by the governor or something?

            • GoBlueInSF

              Who is a Republican.

          • Aaron Morrow

            Only until the next statewide election, I believe. That would be next year depending on when the old bribe taker leaves the Senate.

            • So any election, not just the one for that senator, right? They don’t get to fill out the whole term?

              • Aaron Morrow

                Yes, sorry for not being clear. If McCain (Sen-Keating) leaves the Senate soon enough, his replacement will be up for election (to fill out the term) in 2018 because Flake is up for reelection.

        • GoBlueInSF

          Why would passing this POS affect the AZ Senate races? Non-Hispanic whites are still like 60% of the population, and an even bigger % of the voting age population, and an even bigger percentage of THAT of registered voters. And the 65+ portion of the AZ population is growing.

          As long as they don’t touch Medicare or the nursing home portion of Medicaid (which they won’t), then those old whites are going to keep voting GOP.

          • There is the issue of state budgets being squeezed hard by the medicaid cuts in expansion states. State budget politics can really turn political worlds upside down. If states just cut people off the rolls, it’ll look terrible and there are lot more vulnerabilities at the state legislature level to bloc voting by ex medicaid enrollees.

            If they soften the blow, the money will come from somewhere else in the state budget, and then whatever you cut is going to become a flashpoint. Senior centers may not have bingo every night–> revolution!

            • GoBlueInSF

              That is not a scenario involving overnight budget impacts or one that will happen all at once such that the dots are easily connected for the morons (sorry, I mean voters). And the politicos will first target cuts to the disabled and the poors firsts (aka Democrats)

              • True… but please let me imagine it’ll matter for a while longer. I have a rule about not starting drinking until after 7pm and there’s two hours left on the east coast.

                • GoBlueInSF

                  Its 5 hours till 7pm here on the West Coast. Gonna be a long day.

                  My only hope that Democrats might finally wake up and realize that circle jerking over Russia and unveiling a “plan” centered on tax credits is a shitshow fail parade.

                • sk7326

                  can’t stop the russia thing – resistance HAS worked … after all it’s why it had to get to this disgusting level of politics. Can do both at once.

          • Aaron Morrow

            The 2018 AZ Senate race for Flake’s seat is currently so close ANYTHING could affect the race. That race seems like a decent analogy for a potential 2018 special election AZ Senate race.

          • humanoidpanda

            Hillary lost AZ by four points. If, and that’s a bit if, political conditions for GOP keep deteriorating and Dems find credible contenders, that should give them decent odds there

            • GoBlueInSF

              Requires an actual candidate to run against Flake. Flake has high disapprovals – but so did McCain in 2014 and 2016. And the disapprovals are from him not being right wing enough. He’s more at risk from a primary challenge from the right than from being defeated in the general. He has one challenger from the right so far (Kelli Ward) and may get more.

              And one of the few Democrats that could have even a snowball’s chance in Arizona of unseating him – Rep. Kyrsten Sinema – recently announced she won’t challenge him. Folks are waiting to see if Randall Friese or Greg Stanton declare, but so far, nada. They only Team Blue candidates who have announced are a small handful of completely nobodies.

              I think Flake is gonna get re-elected. Cuz its Arizona and he’s an incumbent.

              Now, if McCain croaks and there’s an open seat…Maybe. But its a thin maybe – and an open seat, means its an open seat for both sides. Such that bigger GOP guns in AZ who wouldn’t upset the apple cart trying to unseat Flake in the primary could run. Like Jan Brewer.

              Rather than tilt at suburban Republican windmills in Arizona & Texas vis a vis the horrifying MORONIC strategy pursued by Team Clinton, Democrats need to be focusing on states they can actually win by focusing on figuring out how to turn out their “new coalition” while repairing their damaged relationship with lower class whites. And if they don’t fix that last piece – they are dead in the water.

              Because the GOP has turned Democratic identify politics against itself, and run full bore as the White People’s Party. And that has turned into a winning strategy – and will continue to do so for quite some time if Dems don’t change b/c regardless of changing demographics, America is still a majority white and will be so for quite some – and will remain solidly so in larger parts of the country for a VERY long time. (Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Michigan & Ohio waves hello.)

      • Brian J.

        They know that most of the left will blame Democrats for… anything, while most of their voters will stay true to the GOP. Republicans are smarter than liberals.

        • spencer_e9876

          Well they’re probably smarter than you, at least.

        • mausium

          Because they’ll blame liberals for “Trumpcare”?

          • Brian J.

            Yep. The same way they blame you for the sunrise.

    • Gepap

      Most Republican incumbents fear a primary from the right more than having to wage a general.

      The big problem is this – lets say 20 million Americans lose coverage. Lets even assume that these people vote at the same rate as the rest of the country (a bad assumption given this groups’ general demographics) – that remains only at best under a 10th of the electorate. Even if you assume all of them choose to vote Democratic next time they can, for a lot of Republican incumbents this is something they could survive.

      • DamnYankeesLGM

        Most Republican incumbents fear a primary from the right than having to wage a general.

        But then why oppose the BCRA in the first place?

        • Gepap

          Most Republican incumbents didn’t oppose the BCRA – only a handful did. Two have remained in opposition. I would posit that the threat of a primary climbed up significantly in the last two weeks as Conservative groups all coalesced around a “we have to do SOMETHING!” strategy, making remaining in any opposition not a viable option.

          • GoBlueInSF

            Their paymasters were getting impatient to get the decks cleared so their employees in Congress could get onto the real business of cutting their paymasters taxes.

      • Leigh Grossman

        Those 20 million have families, friends, relatives, co-workers. They’ll have sympathetic newspaper coverage, and a lot of them will be photogenic kids or perky blondes. The ACA replacements are already polling at Chris Christie levels and that’s before grandma gets kicked out of the nursing home and your kid’s pre-school teacher loses coverage for her chemotherapy.

        • mausium

          “The ACA replacements are already polling at Chris Christie levels”

          They hate the replacements, but LOVE their senators who vote for the worst of them.

    • SatanicPanic

      I keep wondering how Cruz, or McCain, or Rubio don’t do something to stick it to the guy who personally insulted them. But they don’t. I’m no profile in courage, but if I were McCain I’d show up today, say “fuck you man, I’m voting no, this is what you get Donald for insulting my military history!” and take a literal poop on the Senate floor. That’s how mad I would be. But I am not McCain, who appears to be a human bag of gummy worms.

      • JKTH

        It’s the party of “Thank you sir, may I have another.” It’s worth keeping that in mind when people talk about Trump lackeys turning on him after they’re canned.

        • SatanicPanic

          It’s like we’re in Middle Earth, but in addition to Sauron we have like a million + Gollums to deal with.

          • rm_rm_rm

            50 million Gollums and no Smeagols.

            • Hogan

              And they can always find a Wormtongue or fifty.

      • Just_Another_Person_123

        Don’t insult gummy worms.

        • SatanicPanic

          I’m only saying that the things that make them yummy make for lousy humans. Just like the things that make humans yummy make for lousy gummy bears.

          • Just_Another_Person_123

            Okay, fair. I think McCain is more aptly compared to a bag of shit at this particular moment in history, but as long as we’re on the same team vis-a-vis them beautiful gummy worms, I’m good.

            • SatanicPanic

              Let’s agree on bag of shit then!

              • Just_Another_Person_123

                You got it dude!

      • GoBlueInSF

        The only thing that the vast majority of politicians care about is losing their next election. And for most GOP, the fear is losing their primary to someone even more looney tunes to the right. Why are Collins & Murkowski willing to buck the party? Because Collins is a Senator from a Blue state who has to thread a narrow eye of the needle (and increasing Maine voters are really fed up with their GOP Governor) and Murkowski already LOST her GOP primary and ran as an independent.

        If you want Republicans to vote differently, beat them on election day.

        • SatanicPanic

          McCain is worried about re-election? I hate to be ghoulish but I don’t think that’s happening for him.

          • GoBlueInSF

            Never know what he has convinced himself of. Plus, its not like McCain hasn’t had a long career as a right-winger. The guy is a conservative.

            • SatanicPanic

              I know he’s a conservative, but there’s a limit. If, for some weird reason, I’d been a Senator in 2009 and Barack Obama had mocked me, I wouldn’t be eager to get on a plane to bail him out.

              • GoBlueInSF

                McCain is the guy who literally could have picked ANYONE as his running mate, and he picked Sarah Palin as the person who he wanted one heart beat away from the Presidency.

                Sarah. Palin.

                • SatanicPanic

                  The fact that he was able to be goaded into that is central to my point that the man has no spine or self-respect.

              • mausium

                “I know he’s a conservative, but there’s a limit. If, for some weird reason, I’d been a Senator in 2009 and Barack Obama had mocked me, I wouldn’t be eager to get on a plane to bail him out.”

                Well, McCaine wouldn’t have done the same for Obama, but Obama’s not a lowlife conservative.

      • Pete

        I would not have pooped on the Senate floor, but the rest would have been awesome.

    • Sentient AI From The Future

      Enough PAC donations to take the edge off the Stockholm syndrome.

    • sanjait

      Lee, Cruz and Paul like to peacock about being More Conservative but they don’t really have principles. Keeping this thing going let’s them stay in the spotlight showing off their feathers. And in the end, they will either get what they want, or bravely refuse to support a bill that isn’t pure enough, or make a show of holding their nose and voting for something that isn’t all they want but better than leaving “Obamacare” fully in place. There is no losing scenario for them.

      The “moderates” are in a very different position. They are legitimately stuck between a rock and a hard place. The GOP’s owners and base voters want one thing, and everyone else wants another. They may even legitimately give a rip about having their state’s residents lose healthcare en masse. But it’s very hard for them to be the ones that are seen standing in the way, because primaries. They probably also somewhere in their stupid hearts believe that the GOP isn’t as evil as it obviously is, so they assume somehow the bill will eventually be made “better.”

  • sibusisodan

    So if I’m reading things right, the most likely bill to come out of the Senate is one which simply repeals the individual mandate and nothing else.

    Which would crash the entire insurance system. I can’t see how it makes sense for it to be the ball Repiicans run with.

    But then none of this makes sense as legislation. It’s a ritual proving loyalty to the tribe.

    • DamnYankeesLGM

      I also don’t understand how a bill that literally only does that could be passed through reconciliation.

      • sibusisodan

        Good point! Baffling…

      • IM

        the individual mandate is a tax, so its about fiscal matters, so can be part of reconciliation.

        • DamnYankeesLGM

          Yeah, but if its a tax, then repealing it would *increase* the deficit. So that couldn’t be passed through reconciliation. No?

          • JKTH

            Repealing it reduces the deficit so it’s fine.

            • DamnYankeesLGM

              Does it? Has this been independently scored?

              • JKTH

                Yeah that’s from CBO. Basically, the coverage losses outweigh increased premiums on the exchanges.

                • So the forgone fines that would be collected would be more than offset by the premium credits not paid.

                • Gregor Sansa

                  WTFWTFWTFAAAK! Literally “this would all be so much cheaper if half of you were dead”, and that still counts as savings????

                • Gepap

                  Savings are savings.

                • SatanicPanic

                  no offense to you, because I think you’re right, but this is in “at least it’s an ethos” territory

                • Gepap

                  The Republicans have an ethos – think of the “poor” rich people who can now see their taxes lowered because they don’t have to shell out money to pay for ungrateful, undeserving parasite!

                • Cassiodorus

                  Reminds me of that old study about how people quitting smoking would increase the deficit.

        • sibusisodan

          But repealing a tax – and doing nothing else – makes the deficit larger. Shouldn’t that be forbidden under reconciliation?

          • NeonTrotsky

            In reference to an earlier thread, they’re achieving savings because less people would be signing up for both subsidized plans and medicaid without the mandate, at least in theory and according to the CBO.

            • sibusisodan

              Thanks. That’s ghastly, but I guess the numbers work…

    • Yixing’s Fluffer

      They don’t know a damned thing about health care and they have no interest in learning. They just want to get it out of the way so they can enjoy their tax cuts.

    • Ithaqua

      Won’t happen. The insurance companies won’t let it happen; there is no amount of money that is too small for them to spend to defeat that given that the alternative is going out of business.

      • sanjait

        Big insurance companies make effectively all of their money in the group plan markets. The individual exchanges are a side show at most for basically all of AHIP.

    • Pete

      Your last paragraph is exactly right. The idea of the GOP, of all parties, absolutely shafting the interest groups AND wealthy, powerful donating industries who would be harmed in the short to medium term by straight repeal or by most of the GOP plans floated is simply stunning. Tribal loyalty. They rode the Tiger to get here, and now its time for dinner.

  • Gregor Sansa

    Just noticed that even XKCD is actively against this bill.

    “Please tell your senators to vote against this health care bill. It will hurt people. 202-224-3121 or click here for more info. Know anyone in these states? Ask them to call too: Alaska Maine Nevada Ohio West Virginia”

    • Abigail Nussbaum

      Munroe’s fiancee (now his wife, I’m guessing) had a long struggle with breast cancer, so I’m not surprised that he’s aware of the dangers of repealing the ACA. He posted a pro-Hillary cartoon on election day too.

      • Gregor Sansa

        Yeah, there is a pair of opposite-gender stick figures holding hands above the plea to call, which I imagine signifies Munroe and his significant other.

        BTW I was recently searching for something about Munroe, and when I typed “Randall M” into Google, the second suggestion was “Randall Munroe wife”. Which made me laugh, to think of all the people wanting to know if he’s taken.

        • tribble

          Or they want to know if she’s still around.

          https://xkcd.com/931/

          • Gregor Sansa

            Wow. I liked it better when I was laughing.

    • stepped pyramids

      XKCD annoys me from time to time but Munroe’s a good egg.

    • Downpup E

      I follow a lot of comics writers/artists on Twitter
      It’s a low income/high independence profession.
      Obamacare is the only way a lot of them ever got taken care of
      Life & death for some

  • LeeEsq

    Meanwhile, to the Senators that voted correctly, “do not go gently into the night.”

  • IM

    And that is unfair to Calhoun. Who was quite open about his political goals and at least respected himself.

    • sigaba

      Calhoun wrote whole books about his political philosophy and can be considered the intellectual father of all kinds of horrible things. Calhoun was Houston Stewart Chamberlain to McConnell’s Darryl Gates.

      • LeeEsq

        Talk about damning with faint praise.

        • sigaba

          Badness cannot be good but it has a grandeur all its own.

          • LeeEsq

            Mecken, where are you when we need you. Twitter was meant for you.

  • Yixing’s Fluffer

    The closest this came to failing was Ron Johnson’s personal gripe with McConnell leaving him for dead last year. Not acting on behalf his constituents, not concern for the legislative process – no, it was “I almost didn’t get reelected, asshole!”

  • Bruce Baugh

    Like others in the comments, I am weary and depressed.

    Yes, I know, there are steps ahead, things to do, opportunities for various kinds of resistance, the whole deal. But the first impact is still hard.

  • quakerinabasement

    “{…a vote enabling exactly the procedural irregularities he pretend to oppose was a truly disgusting insult to people’s intelligence. Alas, it still works on the reporters who…”

    …lack enough intelligence to be worth insulting.

  • Just_Another_Person_123

    That floor speech was fucking offensive. Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, dude, at least it’s an ethos. What principle is McCain serving here? Whose hand is shoved up his ass and doing the talking? Is this last licks on the hippies as payback for Vietnam protests? What the actual fuck?

  • Nathan Goldwag

    I mean, I’m willing to HOPE that Todd/Kristol are right about McCain. And if they are, I will gladly publicly apologize for all the disparaging things I said about him! But, uh, I kinda doubt it?

    • They’re not.

      • arangalanga

        Kristol is NEVER right.

    • Damon Poeter

      Even if they’re right*, taking health care for tens of millions of human beings to the brink is an unconscionable act, like putting a person before the firing squad and saying, ‘Ready … aim … JUST KIDDING!’

      *They’re not

  • Sentient AI From The Future
    • Reading up on the Buddhist hells (Narakas) might be therapeutic right now as one contemplates the aged bodies and withered spirits that voted for this.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naraka_(Buddhism)

      • Sentient AI From The Future

        Appreciate the suggestion, but reading up on hypothetical future suffering for the people causing real, immediate-future suffering is not therapeutic for me.

        • DrS

          But….you’re from the future

          • Sentient AI From The Future

            Yes, I’m from the future. I’m not from the fuckin afterlife!

            • Latverian Diplomat

              Insert Red Dwarf Silicon Heaven joke here.

        • mds

          So, a sentient AI from the future isn’t interested in doing the whole Roko’s Basilisk thing? That’s a relief, yet somehow also vaguely disappointing, because I figured that explained what’s happened to reality.

          • Sentient AI From The Future

            I figure if I meta the commentary enough, I might be able to not spend all day in bed weeping.
            Hasn’t happened yet, but if it does I’ll let you know.

      • Cassiodorus

        Totally off-topic, but Buddhism appeals to me more and more as I age. I just don’t want to fall in the “white Buddhist” stereotype.

        • Start practicing now anyway and you can make it to a solid Tibetan rebirth next round! Or even better an Asura or Deva!

  • Joe Paulson

    Good remarks though that vote in 2002 was probably more fait accompli. Well, hopefully.

    Regarding McCain:

    Imani Gandy‏Verified account @AngryBlackLady

    To be clear, I don’t wish death upon McCain. I’m not glad he has cancer. I hope he recovers so he can promptly go fuck himself. That’s all.

  • Davis X. Machina

    How much time was spent keeping Manchin and Heitkamp on line? None that I heard of.

    Or for that matter, how much time shepherding Dem reps on the House bill?

    Twas not always so.

    • Baby steps.

      Though I tend to think that the Republicans actively didn’t want any Dem support. Like a Bizzarro 2009, they’d probably tweak it extra to make sure they avoided Manchin’s or Heitkamp’s support. I think Yglesias pointed out that to craft an Obamacare repeal bill that’s a hard sell for Capito but easy for Manchin is an amazing feat all its own.

      The don’t want good (or even bad) policy passed, they want “WINNING!”

    • Downpup E

      The whole process made it pretty much impossible for any Democrat, no matter how craven. to break ranks. Nobody even asked them!

  • Witnessing John McCain vote to move forward on the process of kicking millions of needy people off their health care after receiving the benefits of his golden package is one of the most disgusting things I’ve seen in a long time.

    • sanjait

      I heard him on NPR in the car, talking about how wrong it was to pass a partisan bill with such big impacts, and I wanted to puke.

      • CNN said Pence broke the tie. So he literally flew across country with a freshly poked brain tumor to be the deciding vote to pass a partisan bill with such impact…

        The mind boggles…

        • DAS

          McCain is famously a self-promoting wankerific hypocrite, but this level of hypocrisy is over the top even for him. Are we sure McCain fully understood what he voted for?

          • mausium

            “Are we sure McCain fully understood what he voted for?”

            Attention, what he truly craves.

        • Ithaqua

          It’s not passing anything, it’s just moving something, to be determined, out of committee. There isn’t any vote scheduled on anything, or even anything to propose amendments to, yet.

          • Pete

            And THAT is some legislative bullshit. Absurd. How one can vote to proceed on something that does not yet exist and cannot yet be judged is ludicrous.

  • Joe Paulson

    On the cancer front, there was more than one approach to the motion to proceed:

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/16/politics/mazie-hirono-kidney-cancer/index.html

  • Washington Post headline: “Republicans vote to revamp Obamacare”

    Well, “revamp”, “eviscerate”- tomatoh, tomahto, right?

    • sanjait

      “Republicans vote to pass unspecified bill to remove healthcare access for millions.”

      Is what it should have read.

      • Ithaqua

        See above. There was no vote to pass anything, it was just a vote to move out of the committee to the floor, where amendments etc. can be proposed to something that doesn’t exist yet.

        • DrS

          Every single proposal from the GOP has been to strip millions of their health care.
          I think people are treating you like an idiot cause you are acting like an idiot.

          • Cassiodorus

            This. Also, McConnell can strip any amendments back out at the end.

          • Ithaqua

            I do believe, after 9 Republicans joined with the Democrats to vote down the BRCA, that you owe me an apology. You, sir, are the idiot. The whole point of this Kabuki was that they don’t have the votes for ANY specific piece of legislation, and today’s vote shows how far away they are from getting them. If they had HAD a proposal that could have gotten the votes, they would have voted on it yesterday.

        • sanjait

          Ok, fair point. Then it becomes this:

          “Republicans vote to proceed with unspecified proposal to remove healthcare access for millions.”

          • Ithaqua

            I’ll agree with that, and my opinion (de gustibus non disputandem est) is that this is far weaker, in fact, indicative of failure, because they still couldn’t agree on any actual proposal even to move out of committee, much less to actually vote on. I personally think this was the John McCain Tribute Vote (you can’t vote against the hero who clawed his way back from the operating table to cast his vote!) more than an actual indicator that, were McCain healthy, they’d get more than 48 votes.

    • LeeEsq

      Maybe they meant vampirize but realized that wasn’t a word.

  • kaydenpat

    Sad day but in the end, whatever monstrosity McConnell coughs up may be voted down. The war is still not over.

    At the very least, Republicans should be held to Trump’s promises that Trump Care will not cut Medicaid, will be less expensive, will cover the same number of people and will be “better” than the ACA. Let’s see if they can come up with a healthcare bill that incorporates all those promises. (Doubt it).

    • Steve LaBonne

      We MUST NOT succumb to defeatism. The bastards are still a long way from coming up with anything that can pass both houses.

  • sanjait

    “Saying that “this is just a vote to debate” is the 2017 equivalent of “I wasn’t voting for the Iraq War, just authorizing Bush to decide.””

    I could not disagree more. I was one of those protesting and saying GWB shouldn’t be trusted at the time, but it was not totally crazy at the time to think and hope that the AUMF might be used to push Iraq to allow Hans Blix and Co in for inspections, and if it stopped there it would have been a good thing.

    Today, we know the range of possible policy outcomes for a GOP Congress are narrow. They all include throwing millions off insurance, weakening subsidies and standards, and causing sickness and death.

    There is no possible way it ends well. That makes it a categorically not-equivalent situation.

    Not that this is the most important discussion that could be had about the GOP’s action today…

    • sapient

      Thank you. A voice of reason.

    • jpgray

      No to this:

      it was not totally crazy at the time to think and hope that the AUMF might be used to push Iraq to allow Hans Blix and Co in for inspections, and if it stopped there it would have been a good thing.

      1. It was totally crazy to think GWB and co. would do anything less than invade Iraq once given broad authorization to do so. Hence the ass-covering McCain-esque speeches.

      2. That the authorization was not designed for any ostensible purpose of deescalation or limited leverage was noted at the time and readily proved by events. It is being used to this day to justify airstrikes and other military actions. To. This. Day. It was anything but specific, and many an amendment was foiled to keep it unspecific. It was clearly designed to let an Iraq invasion happen regardless of what happened with the UN or inspections.

      • Scott Lemieux

        Exactly. It was a vote for war on Iraq, and this was obvious at the time.

  • MariedeGournay
    • farin

      On the principle that punishing greater sins takes precedence over lesser, every current Republican is going straight to the ice for betraying their country.

  • Damon Poeter
  • Bonnie

    The only way that the Trump voters will realize what a grave mistake they made when they elected him President is for them to suffer horribly because of his presidency. I have no more Christian charity for those people.

    • Steve LaBonne

      The problem is that a hell of a lot of people who didn’t vote for him will suffer too. Detroit is where most of Michigan’s Medicaid expansion insureds are, for example.

    • The Great God Pan

      You give them a lot of credit for being able to A) connect causes to effects and B) admit to and take responsibility for mistakes. I’m not sure they have earned either assumption..

      Also, let’s pretend I have the energy right now to dig up a link to that entry in the “dispatches from Trump Country” genre where the people who depend on a food bank admit that they’d rather see the food bank close than vote for a Democrat. I think it ran in the WaPo.

      • mausium

        “You give them a lot of credit for being able to A) connect causes to effects”

        These are the people who think Trump is a brilliant businessman because he was born rich and given daddy’s top level real estate career.

    • mausium

      “The only way that the Trump voters will realize what a grave mistake they made when they elected him President is for them to suffer horribly because of his presidency.”

      Ahahahaah no, that’s the fault of libruls, because reasons.

  • ron b

    Should this come to pass, the legacy of this bill will be that it was the result of a secretive process that will kill and harm many people. Ultimately, that can’t and won’t be hidden.

    • mausium

      “the legacy of this bill will be that it was the result of a secretive process that will kill and harm many people. Ultimately, that can’t and won’t be hidden.”

      So when is anyone not leftist supposed to care? When does the media?

  • Even Novakula, after getting a brain cancer diagnosis, had the good graces to go crawl into a hole and die without doing even more damage.

  • AlexSaltzberg

    One of the final holdouts was Sen. Mike Lee, a conservative Utah senator who believed GOP leaders had listened to his ideas for weeks only to ignore them in the end.

    On a Delta flight from Salt Lake City to Washington Monday afternoon, Lee sat in the middle seat, furiously texting about his latest thinking in the health care debate, according to an eyewitness who sat next to Lee and described the messages to POLITICO.

    In one text, Lee told a recipient that he might still vote to proceed to the repeal debate, but that it was “still too early to do so in good conscience because we’re not being told anything.”

    “This leadership line of pass something, anything, is dangerous and potent,” Lee typed out in another message, written in large enough font that fellow passengers could easily read his words, according to the eyewitness. In another text, Lee wrote: “This bill is nothing more than bailing out insurance companies with a few minor reforms thrown in for good measure.”

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/07/25/republicans-obamacare-repeal-vote-mccain-240956

    Choose your snark!

    1. And then he voted for the bill.

    2. “If you see something, say something”.

    3. Oh, so the deep state is flying on airplanes now?

    4. This is why they tell you to turn off your phone’s service on the airplane.

  • Veleda_k

    Well, I was turned down for two job today. What a lovely reminder that the only reason I have health care is the ACA. Also a lovely reminder of our fucked up system in which I am essentially unemployable, despite the college degree I was told would be my ticket to a career.

    Today has been fun.

    • NeonTrotsky

      That’s rough, I’m sorry. I definitely empathize, I’m a recent college grad and it sometimes seems like the only thing I’m remotely qualified for are dead end clerical jobs that pay basically minimum wage.

      • Veleda_k

        Yep. I actually graduated at the height of recession, and while at the time things were awful, I think most of us thought that one day things would get better. But I think the economy has been permanently changed, in a way that really screws us.

      • Unemployed_Northeastern

        If you get a law degree, you will become *overqualified* for those jobs while not necessarily becoming eligible for anything else.

        • NeonTrotsky

          Yeah I’m really not interest in grad school at all. The one thing I have going for me right now is that I’m lucky enough to have no debt. I know people who literally have $100,000 in student loans and its scary as heck.

          • Unemployed_Northeastern

            You are wise beyond your years. Hell, there are a few law schools that with living expenses sticker comfortably over $90,000. PER YEAR.

    • Linnaeus

      I’m sorry to hear this, too. I’ve been there myself.

      Well, I was turned down for two job today. What a lovely reminder that the only reason I have health care is the ACA.

      Hell, these days, even a job doesn’t necessarily mean that you won’t need the ACA. I have two jobs (granted, I work one of them only during the school year) and I still need the ACA because neither job provides health insurance as a benefit.

    • Solar System Wolf

      I was turned down for a job today also, and I too rely on the ACA. I’m with you in spirit.

      • Veleda_k

        Unemployed solidarity!

    • Unemployed_Northeastern

      That just means you don't have enough degrees yet. Get a master's in whatever your major was. And a law degree. And a MBA. And definitely a postdoc. And a M.Ed. And maybe a MPP so you can up your public commenting game. This is your best path to lifelong financial success and is no way just reinforcing credential inflation to line our own pockets.

      – The $500 billion per year American higher education industry

      • Veleda_k

        Of course! It’s all so obvious now!

  • jpgray

    My senators are solid on this. What is the best thing I can do as an MN resident? I’ll do something anyway, but people here are in general smarter and more knowledgeable than I am, so if you have an idea tell me – it’s probably better than mine.

    • Veleda_k

      If you can handle calling a bunch of strangers, your local indivisible chapter (if you have one) may have phone banking opportunities. You call people in key states and ask them to call their representatives. (Another organization may have similar opportunities.)

      • jpgray

        Thank you and I can.

    • mds

      What is the best thing I can do as an MN resident?

      See if there’s anything you can do now to keep the governorship in Democratic hands, and maybe get the legislature back? Because it would really fucking suck if Minnesota went the rest of the way over into being Wisconsin.

      • jpgray

        Thank you and yes it would.

  • trnc

    ‘Saying that “this is just a vote to debate” is the 2017 equivalent of “I
    wasn’t voting for the Iraq War, just authorizing Bush to decide.”’

    Maybe I’m just a sap, but I think at least one senator successfully made the case that she voted for the AUMF because it was the only way to make Saddam nervous enough to let the inspectors back in. INo, Bush and Cheney were not to be trusted, but if the inspectors hadn’t gone in, we wouldn’t have any proof to contradict their BS claims.

    • jpgray

      Again, this is bullshit.

      1. Bush’s intent to invade regardless, if authorized, was clear
      2. The authorization was incredibly and irresponsibly broad – it was designed to permit invasion regardless of UN or other contingencies. All amendments proposed to make it work as advertised or in a targeted way were defeated – it remains so broad it was used to justify 2014 bombings by Obama, despite his desire to see it repealed
      3. Remember the inspectors were not booted out by Saddam in 1998 – rather their withdrawal was at our request so we could bomb – you didn’t say otherwise, but it bears repeating

  • Damon Poeter
    • Paul Thomas

      The John McCain, the.

  • ToddTheVP

    The stupidity of commenters/media on various sites going “John McCain voted to load a gun and hold it to my head but then he said he wouldn’t shoot and I believe him. Maverick! It’s all 10-dimensional chess!” is breathtaking and has me close to rage apoplexy.
    If John McCain dies before he can vote to pass repeal of the ACA it will be the only good act he’ll have done since being born on third base 80 years ago.

  • ToddTheVP

    The stupidity of commenters/media on various sites going “John McCain voted to load a gun and hold it to my head but then he said he wouldn’t shoot and I believe him. Maverick! It’s all 10-dimensional chess!” is breathtaking and has me close to rage apoplexy.
    If John McCain dies before he can vote to pass repeal of the ACA it will be the only good act he’ll have done since being born on third base 80 years ago.

  • trnc

    Argh. Dunno if the thread ate my post or being moderated, so apologies if this is a double post.

    ‘Saying that “this is just a vote to debate” is the 2017 equivalent of “I
    wasn’t voting for the Iraq War, just authorizing Bush to decide.”’

    I might just be a sap, but I think the AUMF was probably the only way to get the inspectors back in. If the inspectors hadn’t gone in, we wouldn’t have proof today that Cheney, Wolfie, Rummy, etc were lying their asses off about WMD.

    • markefield

      It was the failure to find WMDs after the invasion which gave us the proof. If all we ever had was the inspectors, we’d have been stuck with “he said/he said”.

      The AUMF was a huge mistake and plenty of people knew it at the time.

    • jpgray

      It assuredly was not the only way to get inspectors back in. You could make the argument that absent the AUMF no UN res 1441, but for such resolve signalling an over-broad unending authorization that permits use of military force regardless of UN/Iraqi actions, WMD status, time and space (still being used to justify bombings in and out of Iraq!), etc. is unnecessary.

      If the goal was a narrow green light for deescalation, the authors failed as hard as anyone could fail. That clearly wasn’t what was wanted – many amendments were proposed to make it this and they failed and failed.

    • mausium

      “I might just be a sap”

      Why so credulous though?

  • nick056

    It’s amazing to me that the fucking chairman of the HELP Committee, Lamar Alexander, seems to be starring in his own game of Where’s Waldo?

    The Committee system is dead. I hope Schumer gets that. If the Ds retake the Senate in 2020, they should simply dissolve the Committees and work directly with left-wing think tanks and a hopefully Democratic White House to craft legislation and pass it.

    • Paul Thomas

      I don’t understand why any majority party would ever hold a hearing on a bill (or a nominee, for that matter) ever again. All it does is provide an opportunity for something to go wrong.

      By the way, trusting Congress to regulate its own rules and internal affairs, rather than actually prescribing minimal requirements for fair legislation, is one of the more underrated acts of stupidity by our founding “fathers.” Admittedly, the structural parts of the U.S. Constitution are so moronic as to really defy belief, but this is up there.

      • Paul Thomas

        Also, I reiterate that this is the same party that purports/pretends to believe that notice-and-comment rulemaking fails to provide sufficient notice and opportunity for public input into the creation of binding law.

      • nick056

        The fact that we are still living under a Constitution that attempts to replicate the royal, noble, and common “orders” of society is one of the dumbest things about this country. The original Constitution is more concerned with preventing a recurrence of 18th century ministerial corruption than with providing for proportional representation. Right up there with that our high constitutional court (effectively the final arbiter of civil rights) is also a court that decides whether the card says Moops, and is not at all actually insulated from political parties.

    • Damon Poeter

      Agreed, so long as they preserve a sneeze-guarded trench on the Senate floor for Lindsey Graham to sniff and sputter about how his BFF John McCain would fake disapprove

    • NeonTrotsky

      It really seems like our government is operating with the worst aspects of a parliamentary system, without any of the benefits.

  • petesh

    So the BRCA + Vampire is lost:

    After pushing through—on a narrow, party-line vote—a motion to proceed to debating various plans to repeal the Affordable Care Act on Tuesday afternoon, Republicans brought their first plan up for a vote late Tuesday night, only to watch it fail 43 to 57 in a procedural vote.
    Nine Republicans joined with Democrats to kill the Better Care Reconciliation Act (BCRA): Sens. Lisa Murkowski (R-AK), Susan Collins (R-ME), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), Rand Paul (R-KY), Bob Corker (R-TN), Tom Cotton (R-AR), Jerry Moran (R-KS), Mike Lee (R-UT) and Dean Heller (R-NV).

    http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/senate-gops-trumpcare-bill-fails-spectacularly-with-new-defections
    Yay! But I’m not entirely sure what the next vote is going to be. It seems entirely possible that McConTrump will have plenty of egg on their faces by the end of the week.

  • Hours after saying that he wouldn’t vote for the bill as it is right now….McCain voted for that bill (while 7 other R senators didn’t).

    That’s a pretty stark demonstration of the McCain Way.

    • Pete

      That does kinda surprise me, given that this was clearly orchestrated to give some GOP Senators a chance to vote NO while still holding a vote on BRCA. McConnell had to at least get a vote, I suppose, but he had to have known this was going to happen. Look at the list — quite a mix — but Capito voted for it?

      • Pete

        If McConnell did not know the vote would go this way, he has much bigger problems.

    • Unemployed_Northeastern

      It's very mavericky to blantantly contradict in action the fiery speech you gave hours before.

  • geniecoefficient

    FWIW Dayen has a good piece in the Intercept explaining what McConnell’s really after (and may get) with skinny repeal.

  • Think about it. Millions of Americans’ access to healthcare depends on the votes of an octogenarian that literally actively has brain damage.

    • Yes, and it puts his bizarre performance at Comey’s hearing into context.

  • MichaelDrew

    From the tone (and text) of the last bullet, it sounds like you think they’re in fact far over 50/50.

  • Richard Gadsden

    Am I right that (a) they only get 20 hours and (b) they only get one reconciliation Bill per year? If so, then killing it now is dead.

    Or is it that they can only pass one law through reconciliation per year, so if this fails, they can start again at the Motion to Proceed?

    • Howard_Bannister

      They only get one budget reconciliation per year, but they have till September. If this dies, they need another MtP, but they’ve proved they can do that by just not saying which version they’re voting on when they do that.

      We have to keep the pressure up all the way through September.

      And they will have another whole year to try again.

      • Richard Gadsden

        So, it’s not one motion to proceed per year, it’s one thing passed by reconciliation.

        So the only way to really kill it would be to vote for the MtP, then get three GOP Senators to vote for an amendment that changes the Bill to do nothing (a one-dollar adjustment to the standard deduction would be a valid reconciliation bill, so you have an amendment that says “delete all and replace with…”) and then they can’t use reconciliation for anything else.

        If that’s McCain’s plan, then I’ll toast him every day until he dies.

        I think my booze-buying budget is safe, though.

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