Home / General / MRA Primer Podcast

MRA Primer Podcast

Comments
/
/
/
528 Views

 

Majority Report recently did a show on Men’s Rights Activists, starring our beloved David Futrelle. It’s a really interesting conversation, covering important topics like how manosphere lingo is making its way into “mainstream” conservative lingo and how white supremacy movements have become increasingly intertwined with the various MRA-sympathetic groups. Listen!

FacebookTwitterGoogle+Share
  • Facebook
  • Twitter
  • Google+
  • Linkedin
  • Pinterest
  • Murc

    Is it wrong that I’m pissed off at how these douchebags have ruined fashion for me?

    I look good in a fedora; my head is a funny shape and the hat hides that. Shirt over t-shirt worn with belted cargo shorts or, in winter, jeans also really works for me.

    Only I can’t fucking dress like that anymore, because I look precisely like that asshole pictured above (except unlike him, I can grow a proper beard) and it is absolutely the last impression I want to give anyone.

    • NonyNony

      Eh – lose the fedora and the necktie from the guy in the picture and the rest of the ensemble is not anything that will raise eyebrows (beyond the choice of striped pants and patterned shirt, I suppose).

      Shirt over T-shirt with cargo shorts/jeans has been a pretty universal American male fashion choice since the 90s (which is why the MRAs all tend to look like that – it’s not like they made a conscious choice to dress like that beyond the hat and the crazy decision to consciously wear a necktie when not required to by your boss).

      • Murc

        My dirty little secret is I fucking love patterned shirts.

        Love. Them.

        • NonyNony

          I do too.

          I’m not a big fan of the striped pants though – striped pants make me look like a clown.

        • ajp

          Nothing wrong with patterns, you just have to be judicious with the how many articles of patterned clothing you wear. If I wear a patterned shirt, I’ll wear solid pants and vice versa. In a suit, between the suit, the tie and the shirt, I only like one to be patterned. This is not really a fashion rule just personal preference. But to do tie, shirt, and suit all patterned and not look like a goofball does take an above average fashion sense.

      • MacK

        I like fedora style panama hats when its hot! Real Panamas, fair trade Panamas, from these people:

        https://www.panamas.co.uk

    • ajp

      Open shirt over a t-shirt is a little too 1999 for me. I like the look, but I feel way too old in it. It’s a very aging-Gen-Xer-who-still-thinks-he’s-in-his-20s look (see, eg, Steve Zahn in Treme). So it’s just as well that MRA doofuses have appropriated an outdated look.

      I don’t really know what’s cool anymore. I bought myself a fedora a few years back and my wife insisted I return it. I don’t know why my fashion sense should be affected by what some other people wear, but that’s life I guess.

      I used to be all about the vintage stores, now I’m all about the blue oxford button down, henleys, flannel, and long sleeve polo shirts. Hopefully generic enough that no odious subgroup can ever ruin them.

      • NonyNony

        Open shirt over a t-shirt is a little too 1999 for me.

        Are you sure you don’t mean “1989”?

        I don’t really know what’s cool anymore.

        I have solved this problem by not caring. It’s amazing the freedom you have when you decide you just don’t give a shit. And now I’m old enough that people can attribute it to creeping senility instead of not caring :)

        • ajp

          Maybe 1989? I’m too young to remember the 80s too well but I remember the 90s. The open shirt thing seemed to really take off alongside grunge and the appropriation of flannel by people into that scene (it was often a flannel shirt open over a tee). I liked the look, but I haven’t felt “cool” wearing that since the 90s. Not that I care. I used to be into Hawaiian shirts. I know nothing of cool.

        • John F

          I don’t really know what’s cool anymore.

          I have solved this problem by not caring. It’s amazing the freedom you have when you decide you just don’t give a shit.

          I know exactly what you mean, some time in my late 30s a flip just switched and voila! The thing is, I’m amazed that when I was 15-30 I used to care about such trivial stuff- what really amazes me is how many people after 40 still care about the same crap they did when younger

        • ajp

          yeah. I dunno, it takes a lot of mental bandwidth, that I don’t care to spend, to obsess over fashion. If I’m not dressed for work (boring navy or charcoal suit and white dress shirt, english striped tie or dotted tie; I dress boring like Obama, I don’t like to think about what I wear to work-a decade of wearing the same fucking shirt and tie to Catholic school left me with a good insight in that respect).

          On the weekends I’m almost always wearing blue jeans. I think I own one pair of slacks, and I’m not even sure if they fit. I like a Uniqlo button down in an interesting pattern. Black or navy or grey t-shirts. Tons of henleys in earth tones and white. A couple of band t-shirts. Flannel in the winter. Hippie minimalist shoes. If you don’t like what I wear, I don’t give a fuck. Already married and I don’t care who’s impressed. My clothes are clean and in good condition, if that’s not enough for you*, fuck off.

          *not you personally. general you.

      • Murc

        Open shirt over a t-shirt is a little too 1999 for me. I like the look, but I feel way too old in it. It’s a very aging-Gen-Xer-who-still-thinks-he’s-in-his-20s look (see, eg, Steve Zahn in Treme).

        I’m still in my early thirties, and skew young in my looks, so I can still pull it off.

        I don’t really know what’s cool anymore. I bought myself a fedora a few years back and my wife insisted I return it. I don’t know why my fashion sense should be affected by what some other people wear, but that’s life I guess.

        In the last few years, I have gradually decided that I want to dress to impress; that is, I want to look good by the standards of not just myself, but also other people.

        For a long time I didn’t care. I dressed for comfort and convenient. And then I slowly, gradually realized that I looked like shit. I would look at other people who were doing the same thing and think “You look awful. You look like you just don’t give a shit about society. Is that what I look like?”

        And, well, yes. Yes it was.

        It’s not like I’m mister fancy pants. I wear jeans and sneakers most of the time. But I make a conscious effort to make sure my stuff all fits me properly and attractively, that I’ve matched colors and patterns, that my stuff is well-laundered and ironed and maintained and does not look like it is falling apart. I try and pick fashions that accentuate my attractive physical features (good cheekbones, good eyes, excellent legs) and hide or downplay my unattractive ones (weird shaped head, uncooperative hair, skinny-fat gut) to the extent I can. I carefully maintain my facial hair.

        I dunno. Maybe I’m just vain. But I work in IT, and I got really tired of looking around at the fucking slobs I shared office space with for whom “grooming” was a word in a foreign language and decided “no, fuck this.”

        • ajp

          That’s not vain at all.

          I think the most important thing is fit, and beyond that, not having egregious fashion sense. So I wear jeans all the time. BUT-they are dark-no weird acid washing, just dark Levi’s, normal fit. Plain, but a classic look.

          I wear a lot of t-shirts. But they’re in good condition, not wrinkled, they fit right, made of quality materials.

          Anyone who meets me sees that I dress pretty “boring.” But that doesn’t mean I don’t take pride in my appearance. Clean clothes, that fit, that are well-maintained, with no egregious color or pattern clashing. There are worse things than being known as the dude who always wears the crisp blue button down with jeans.

          Anyway, I guess the point of all my bloviating is that I do “care” about how I dress. I care about not looking like a slob. When I say I don’t “care” what I really mean is that I don’t care about staying on the cutting edge of fashion.

        • Bruce B.

          I had one of those moments in my 30s too. These days it’s hard because of major weight gain as the side effect of multiple health problems, but even so, it’s really not much extra work to have things that really fit me – it’s just different work. :)

      • Barry Freed

        Open shirt over a t-shirt is a little too 1999 for me. I like the look, but I feel way too old in it. It’s a very aging-Gen-Xer-who-still-thinks-he’s-in-his-20s look

        You spying on me on the weekends, AJP?

        • ajp

          :P

      • JL

        Wait really? I wear open shirts over t-shirts all the time and I am 30.

        I mean, the open shirts I’m wearing are typically long-sleeved flannel things and don’t look anything like what that guy is wearing. And nobody has ever accused me of being fashionable. But I’m not sure anybody has ever accused me of having an outdated look either, just an unfashionable one.

        • ajp

          I mean, who actually goes up to people and tells them that their look is outdated? That’s a job for an SO or close friend.

          I will say that people our age won’t turn an eyebrow up at the open shirt look, because when we were younger in the 90s it was a very common thing, and a lot of people my age still do it. Someone younger probably couldn’t pull it off and would get eyebrows from other people his age.

          I am not a fashion shamer though. Well, except when it comes to light colored jeans and backwards baseball caps. Those I cannot abide.

      • DrDick

        I have been wearing fedoras for 30 years and I refuse to let some snot nosed dweeb ruin it for me. Besides, mostly what they wear are trilbies and not actual fedoras.

        • Lester Freamon’s Tweedy Impertinence

          Thank you! My wife got so tired of my pointing that out that I just quit. But they’re not fedoras they’re fucking trilbies. I will die on this hill.

      • Linnaeus

        Open shirt over a t-shirt is a little too 1999 for me. I like the look, but I feel way too old in it. It’s a very aging-Gen-Xer-who-still-thinks-he’s-in-his-20s look (see, eg, Steve Zahn in Treme).

        As an aging Gen-Xer who definitely does not think that he is in his 20s, I do the open shirt over t-shirt ensemble, but with some caveats:

        1. I don’t do short sleeve over t-shirt. This means that shirt-over-shirt for me is pretty much confined to fall and winter. I like to do that because the second shirt functions as another layer that can be easily put on or taken off and I don’t look like a complete slob either way.

        2. I don’t wear the shirt-over-shirt look very much in public. I work a lot at home, and I might wear it when I’m with a group of friends or running an errand. Other than that, I’ll wear something else.

        • tsam

          Also, blank T under the open shirt. No printed shirts.

          Cleans the look up nicely.

    • Personally I think it is hilarious they’ve adopted a hat worn by and named after a fictional princess.

      Another cunning plan by the Femmebeasts!!

      • Barry Freed

        It’s a shame what MRA types have done to that hat. My Italian grandfather looked pretty damned good in his Borsalino (though I could never pull it off myself).

    • Ruviana

      I love this whole thread because I love knowing that guys care about their clothes and how they look.

      • Lee Rudolph

        Okay, I’ll keep on keeping out of the thread, then.

      • ajp

        Why wouldn’t we?

    • TribalistMeathead

      For the five billionth time, the hats that MRAs wear aren’t fedoras. A fedora is the hat Marlon Brando wore in Guys and Dolls. Indiana Jones wore fedoras. MRAs wear trilbys. And no one looks good in a trilby.

      • Murc

        Oo oo, can we have a prescriptivist vs. descriptivist language debate again? It’s been so long!

        • Malaclypse

          You are really begging the question of which side you are on.

          • Origami Isopod

            If you think you’re going to start that debate here, you’ve got another thing coming.

            • tsam

              OOH! Present! What is it?

    • Bruce B.

      A friend of mine with an extensive hat collection, including several nifty fedoras, says that almost nobody ever mistakes him for an MRA or other asshole for the simple reason that he doesn’t act like an asshole. He’s courteous and friendly when speaking to others, pays attention to others moving around them and gives them sufficient room, tips generously, and like that. His advice: “Behave like every human being should, and dress any way you like that’s hygienic.”

    • djw

      The internet is not real life. I can’t imagine you’re particularly likely to encounter people who’ll know enough to think you might be an MRA for wearing an ordinary outfit or particular style of hat.

  • Rob in CT

    manosphere lingo is making its way into “mainstream” conservative lingo and how white supremacy movements have become increasingly intertwined with the various MRA-sympathetic groups.

    On the one hand, this is disgusting and worrisome.

    On the other… is it naive to hope that by combining the various forms of nastiness/lunacy into one giant shitscapade they’ll basically get their (intellectual) cooties all over each other such that normal people notice that they are all, in fact, toxic assholes?

    • NonyNony

      Yes.

      20 years ago I was naive enough to believe that if you revealed them for what they were, people would recoil in disgust.

      And they do, but it turns out that that only makes the toxic assholes more toxic as they work twice as hard to “convince” people who are disgusted by them that they’re wrong to be disgusted.

      • Matty

        Plus, there’s active recruiting in addition to the normal bleed-over you might get between the different groups. You see it places like 4chan: “Hey kid, you know who’s actually behind feminism? The Joooooooooos.” Part of the reasons why the term “Redpill Right” exists – there’s an active campaign of invitation to get disaffected young men on the internet to “see how far the rabbit hole goes.” It’s fucking insidious, and the fact that it’s leeching in to the mainstream is distressing. I’m darkly convinced that we’ll see “white genocide” talk from at least one 2020 GOP primary candidate.

      • Now they just get elected to congress.

      • tsam

        You have to use historical context. 40 years ago, there were separate schools, bathrooms, drinking fountains, pools, beaches…

        They only seem more toxic now that it’s not less socially acceptable to be an outspoken racist/sexist/bigot/shit-brained fucking fascist.

    • J. Otto Pohl

      Am I being too simple in thinking one good night with a woman of color could cure at least some of these folks?

      • Malaclypse

        Simple, and really fucking racist and sexist as well, yes.

      • Murc

        … Jesus, Otto.

      • Why yes, look at all those slave owners who freed their slaves after –

        No seriously, do take your misogynoiristic bullshit and fuck off and die with it.

      • Orphos

        Why of course, if she sat him down and talked to him all night about all the oppressive, racist, stereotyping ways that he saw women as objects whose only purpose was to generate revelations or plot developments in men, sure.

        …wait.

      • TribalistMeathead

        Aren’t there regulars at your blog that you could talk to abo- oh. Right. Never mind.

        • Malaclypse

          Damn. That’s how you twist a knife.

      • tsam

        What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I’m the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You’re fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that’s just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You’re fucking dead, kiddo.

      • Origami Isopod

        Stick to the Ghana references, Otto.

      • John F

        Am I being too simple in thinking one good night with a woman of color could cure at least some of these folks?

        Does she get to have at least a stun gun?

      • The Dark Avenger

        Is that what happened to you, Otto?

      • Gareth

        One good generation, perhaps.

  • Sue.K.Mabels

    What exactly is the beef here with MRA, again? I’ve been living under a rock.

    • J. Otto Pohl

      Meals Ready to be Ate

    • tsam

      Just stay put. There’s no art here for you to say stupid shit about.

      • ajp

        Ouch. I must’ve missed an earlier thread.

        • tsam

          This fucking asshole always pops up on threads with bspencer’s art and criticizes it with dumb shit. Makes tsam MAD.

          • Linnaeus

            Mr. McGee, don’t make tsam angry. You wouldn’t like him when he’s angry.

            • Ahuitzotl

              … he’s always angry

    • TribalistMeathead

      I’ve been living under a rock.

      Then I’m sure you’ve met lots of MRAs.

  • ajp

    Men’s Rights, what a name. It’s like White Rights, or Straight Rights. Completely clueless assholes.

    • thebewilderness

      The leaders are grifters and the followers are white male supremacists. Their form of activism is to harass women on the internet and school shootings.

  • MacK

    The ironic quality about the MRA types is that they pretty well always manage to justify the thing they are complaining about.

    So you get the MRA dads complaining about being discriminated against in child custody disputes, who by their antic, misogynistic comments and puerile attacks on the child’s mother manage to demonstrate how no sane judge would in fact give them custody.

    The MRA male college swine complaining about women using the expression “rape culture,” while making comments that would lead you to conclude that no women should be left alone with them.

    The MRA complainers about women getting jobs and promotions, who manage to show attitudes that demonstrate why anyone with women in their workplace would not have promote one of these guys in a supervisory position, or even hire them.

    • D.N. Nation

      Just look at MRA Patron Saint Paul Elam, who abandoned his daughter early in her life, freeloaded off of multiple women before they kicked him to the curb, reconciled with his daughter later in her life, and….freeloaded off of her too. That guy shouldn’t have custody of anyone or anything.

      • MacK

        He’s really a quite remarkably nasty piece of work.

  • NewishLawyer

    What I want to know is what makes someone go down the rabbit hole of weird ideologies?

    I was not the most successful guy romantically in my 20s and 30s but it never occurred to me to check out forums where MRAs gather. Allegedly Dylan Roof went down the rabbit hole when a girl he liked started dating a black dude as well.

    Though I dislike the phrase neckbeard. I get razor bumps because my facial hair grows in every which way and this makes it impossible to find which way is shaving with the grain and shaving against the grain. I don’t want a beard so I just try and be careful. I imagine that a lot of guys have the same razor burn and bump problem and they think neck beard is the best solution to the problem.

    A lot of the terms against MRAs seem to be the type of stuff that were used to taunt geeks and nerds in high-school but for some reason it is totes cool this time.

    • ajp

      I mean, there are worse things to be called than neckbeard. See, e.g., the things MRAs call women and persons of color. But your point is well taken.

      • TribalistMeathead

        I think the issue is the laundry list of things people assume about you because you don’t sculpt your beard, not being called a neckbeard.

        • ajp

          I have very sensitive skin, so I am sympathetic to people who opt for a stubbly look because of that. Although, having neckbeard is very unflattering on anyone. I’m not saying it’s right to shame people who rock neckbeards, but…

  • Karen24

    For those of you who might wonder why progressives dislike MRA’s, I wade into the sludge and bring back this particular mango. Trigger warning for everything from misogyny to bad grammar, but it is important to monitor these guys. They actively recruit for their poisonous ideologies at places like sports sites. Weight lifting has become the domain of the MRA creep. We need to clean them out like we would a nest of rats or cockroaches.

    • Linnaeus

      Yeah, that’s a prime example. One of his blog posts links to a prior blog post (that I will not link to) of his in which he reflects on “dominance” with a discussion of Ariel Castro. It’s….not very good. The comments, of course, are worse.

      • Karen24

        They often support their arguments only by linking to their own or other MRA posts. Ten minutes of link-chasing gets nothing remotely connected to actual evidence, but people who aren’t trained to know the difference between a real study or actual fact and this crap can be deluded.

        • Linnaeus

          It’s almost gnostic. With apologies to the Gnostics.

          • Karen24

            More “turtles all the way down,” but with my most sincere apologies to the chelonians.

    • ajp

      The “rational” male, eh?

      • tsam

        Where “rational” is a counter to “irrational, hysterical, etc”.

        (Euphemism for “bitch”)

      • guthrie

        ‘rationale’ surely, in search of a rationale for their prejudices.

  • thebewilderness

    MRAs are deeply committed to the ideas promoted by evo psycho MRAs that it is their male nature to rape pillage and plunder and the feminists have ruined society by making rape illegal.
    They are the result of a society that conditions the young to a world view of male entitlement to females. Some people recognize it as a marketing strategy and deconstruct the conditioning while others embrace it.

    • Linnaeus

      Which is strange, because that’s really a very dim view of men. If men can’t be trusted to act in a manner that doesn’t harm someone else, that has some nasty implications.

      • Karen24

        It has always puzzled me how men don’t see this. Then again, these are the guys who think that women are genetically more verbal and relationship-oriented than men, and that makes us uniquely suited to care for babies only, but not suited to be diplomats or judges.

        • tsam

          Why does that puzzle you? The type of people who lazily blame their base nature for their shitty behavior aren’t terribly uncommon, and lazily pigeonholing women into a subservient baby maker/caregiver/cook/blowjob toy because nature isn’t uncommon either.

          If you squint to where it blurs the letters, then smash yourself in the head with a hammer while blasted on heroin and acid, it almost makes sense, see?

          To people who think this is the way the world should be, this isn’t a dim view of men at all. It celebrates being a filthy savage.

          • Karen24

            Good point. Also, I love the image of someone hitting himself with a hammer while blasted.

        • Pffft. Like diplomats have to be able to talk.

          • MacK

            Speaking as the child of diplomats, I understand that having an ability to spend long periods between trips to the bathroom is important.

            • Lee Rudolph

              That’s what the hollow wooden legs are for, no?

        • MacK

          Actually, and only because I used to shoot target rifle competitively, it is not a myth that women are better shots (to my acute young male embarrassment), something to do with better breathing and muscle (less twitch) control.

          The rest of this stuff is nonsense. Most judges are awful, but I have never found any reason to think women were less awful than the men.

      • thebewilderness

        Like so many people they think everyone is pretty much just like them. Some outgrow it as they develop a broader understanding. Some of them try to prove it “scientifically”.

It is main inner container footer text