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Gosnell

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Guilty on three counts of murder.

My position on what this means obviously hasn’t changed. The summary is that using the Gosnell case as a pretext reason to restrict or ban safe abortions makes about as much sense as banning appendectomies because a surgeon committed Medicaid fraud.

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  • sharculese

    The good news is we now know we only have a week or so to go before anti-choicers stop pretending to care about low-income women.

    • DrDick

      Or any other women for that matter.

  • If you want to be grossed out, check out the Twitter page of that finance writer who’s basically a hip, male, French K-Lo.

    • commie atheist

      Who he? And he’s relevant how?

      • mark f

        I dunno, but he’s very popular with all the DC/NYC political types I follow.

  • …makes about as much sense as banning appendectomies because a surgeon committed Medicaid fraud epidural pain injections because some patients died from tainted steroids.

    No need to stop with fraud. (In fairness, some not very bright people did suggest banning epidural injections because of NECC. That never went anywhere because the vast majority of people recognized it was a dumb fuck argument.)

    Note: Never read complaints against long term care facilities unless you want to gag and cry.

    • anthrofred

      Oh, Christ no, especially if they largely subsist on meager public funds. Once you’re born, you’d better be able to pay for an in-home nurse. Value of human life why I never-

      • DrDick

        They are only “pro-life” from conception to birth. After that you had either be rich or have the grace to die as quickly as possible.

    • Another Anonymous

      “Never read complaints against long term care facilities unless you want to gag and cry.”

      The ones filed against my clients tend to be very poorly written in that regard. It usually takes a motion to dismiss or for summary judgment to get the rhetorical juices going.

  • Liberals always wanted to make abortions be safe and legal.

    Conservatives just want to make it illegal, and don’t care about safety at all.

    So, somehow, instead of waging the War Over Choice on those clear battlegrounds, some “Liberals” decided to add “rare,” to safe and legal.

    And the right took that and ran with it, added all sorts of restrictions.

    And, because of those restrictions, what should still be safe, is now rarer, and people like this Gosnell guy found a niche where he could make some money – the money that used to go to back-alley abortionists, back before Roe make abortions legal, making them safer.

    Words matter.

    • Words like “… before Roe MADE abortions…”

      OY!

    • Bill Murray

      I would include legal within safe. IIRC, it has been estimated that botched abortions were the 3rd leading cause of death for teenage girls prior to RvW

  • And like clockwork the cuckoos come out. (From my inbox, will provide links if required by people wielding pointy sticks.) Note the jaw dropping attempt to make the abductions in Ohio part of the anti-abortion narrative because as you know, when some brutal shit locks you up and rapes you and then beats you until you miscarry, that is exactly the same as when a doctor performs a medical procedure.

    Tomorrow, King will join host Star Parker of CURE along with Day Gardner of the National Black Prolife Union, Catherine Davis and other African American leaders of the National Black Prolife Coalition in Washington, D. C. for a press conference and briefing. The leaders are asking the question: “Abortion and the impact on Black America…is there a Gosnell in your community?” Like King, the Black Leaders say that Gosnell isn’t an exception, that there are abortion horrors happening in 2013 in abortion facilities all across America. They blame lack of regulations and strong arm lobbying efforts of Planned Parenthood and other abortion advocates for allowing Gosnell and “others like him” to operate and commit horrors that are now being exposed.

    King also believes that “once the Cleveland abductions by the Castro brothers are investigated, America will begin to clearly understand that women are often victims of coerced abortions and should be protected from predators. These rescued girls are not the only ones in America who have been forcibly subjected to abortion. Abortion by coercion should be thoroughly investigated and outlawed. For instance, in the Gosnell situation, there is a case of a teenage girl who claims to have been forcibly taken to Gosnell’s clinic and held down by force during a traumatic abortion,” King said, referring to the reports that the abducted girls in Cleveland were hit in the stomach until they aborted babies conceived during their brutal captivity.

    “Cases like the Gosnell case and now pending Castro case all go to prove that there is a dehumanization of women and children not just across the globe but here at home that has been swept under the rug for far too long,” King told a group today at a conference on human trafficking held in Atlanta. “Let’s just pray that this Gosnell conviction will spark more justice for women and babies in America as time goes on.”

    • sharculese

      They really are fucking ghouls.

      • avoidswork

        They just have no “soul”:

        You say rape? I say “Duke Lacrosse!”

        You say prevention? I say “Keep your legs closed, slut!”

        You say violence against women? I vote *against* VAWA.

        You say pregnancy due to rape? I say gift from God.

        Their soulless words/actions never know any boundaries.

      • DrDick

        You flatter them.

      • I actually hope they go dancing into traffic with the Ohio comparison. The results will be almost as satisfactory as my fantasy. Which involves this crew of fucks and a massive sewage backup.

    • joe from Lowell

      women are often victims of coerced abortions and should be protected from predators

      …and the best way to accomplish this goal is to turn the whole industry into a black market.

      Obviously.

  • Uncle Ebeneezer

    Cue the wingnut response: “You see? Abortion IS murder!!1!”

  • Yeah, I’m upset that the murder charges were all focused on the fetuses and not so much on the Nepali woman who they killed outright while essentially pretending to give her medical care.

    • Anonymous

      Very upsetting, but hardly surprising.

    • Hogan

      I was thinking we shouldn’t start charging anesthesiologists who screw up with first-degree murder, but then I went back to the grand jury report to read about that episode and RAGE.

      RAGE.

      OH MY FUCKING.

      110 POUNDS.

      RAGE.

      So yeah.

  • Sebastian H

    A key pro-life discussion point about the case is that you shouldn’t have 3 counts of murder and 1 count of non murder just because of the location of the baby at the time of the killing. That is a point that resonates with quite a few people.

    • sharculese

      You’re not supposed to brag about the fact that your talking points are dishonest equivocation, fyi.

      • sharculese

        “Location of the baby” as an alien mass growing inside you is some cutesy abstraction. And then you have the gall to get all pissy when we point out the obvious fact that you don’t care about women.

        • Sebastian H

          If you think of babies as alien masses, maybe you’re the one with problem. It isn’t an abstraction, it is a reality. Gosnell killed viable fetuses. Some of them in the womb some of them not in the womb. But viable nonetheless. You can call them ‘alien masses’ but you’re the one getting pissy over the obvious fact that you don’t mind baby killing…

          • sharculese

            Except it is an alien life. You can romanticize biology all you want, but your romantic ideals don’t amount to arguments.

            you’re the one getting pissy over the obvious fact that you don’t mind baby killing…

            Nobody said anything about baby killing. A fetus is not a baby and no amount of desperate word games will change that, Mr. Dumpty.

            • Sebastian H

              We are talking about the Gosnell case. If you don’t know that the Gosnell case is about baby killing you shouldn’t bother commenting on the thread. The desperate word games are being used by those in denial about the fact that killing fully viable fetuses IS baby killing.

              • sharculese

                killing fully viable fetuses IS baby killing.

                noooooope!

                • Sebastian H

                  Your opinion is not shared by the majority of the US and European population.

              • Anonymous

                We are talking about the Gosnell case.

                Right. In which women sought abortions to remove fetuses from their bodies. Gosnell killed and injured these women in the process. Had they sought abortions elsewhere, the fetuses would still have been “non-viable,” because they would have been successfully aborted. Stop playing dumb, shithead.

            • David M. Nieporent

              Sounds like you’re the one desperate to play word games.

              Mothers don’t “feel the fetus kicking.” They feel the baby kicking. Why is that? Because only in the context of abortion does any person try to use euphemisms like that.

              • Malaclypse

                While we are playing interesting word games with language, people don’t pay taxes because they fear “men with guns.”

                What’s that, you want to distinguish ordinary and technical uses of language now?

              • witless chum

                Why is that? Because it’s vanishingly rare for a pregnancy to get far enough along for the woman to feel kicking and then have an abortion. That’s why they don’t say they “feel the fetus kicking.” I bet every woman who’s ever said that wanted the kid and, if she had an abortion later, it was because something went terribly wrong.*

                Context mattering continually fools the must control the wombs brigade.

                * The womb control brigade’s response to this is to pile on and try to increase the woman’s misery, because that’s the kind of people they are.

      • Sebastian H

        I realize baby killer is an overused phrase, but in this case it is strictly descriptive. Gosnell killed actual babies which were actually viable. Some of them were outside of the womb. Some of them were inside the womb. The pro-choice argument is that fully viable babies inside the womb can be killed and have it not be murder. That you aren’t “trusting the woman” if you say otherwise.

        That argument is delusional.

        • sharculese

          I realize baby killer is an overused phrase,

          You mean because it’s infantile and deceptive?

          The pro-choice argument is that fully viable babies inside the womb can be killed and have it not be murder. That you aren’t “trusting the woman” if you say otherwise.

          Who would have guessed that Sebastian H would invent pro choice arguments nobody made, in order to paint pro-choicers as extremists.

        • A lot is concealed with the geography argument, but it is very true that “baby in the womb” is not like “baby in the crib” or “baby in the pram” or “baby on my lap”.

          In the former case, translocation involves fundamental physiological changes (after all, baby in the womb is immersed in fluid…don’t try that with babies outside the womb). In the latter case, it does not. In the former case, the “location” is, in fact, being physiologically and anatomically embedded inside another person. In the latter cases, well, not. Even “on my lap” is not embedded.

          A viable fetus is not a baby. (“Viable baby” is weird.) It is, of course, something which is sometimes convertible into a baby. The conversion is rarely trivial for either mother or fetus.

          Viability is generally a technologically dependant notion. Concpetuses can survive outside the womb (cf IVF). It’s a minor stable of science fiction since at least Brave New World that the entire gestational cycle could occur artificially which would mean that “viability” per se is not a very interesting boundary.

          Thompsonian arguments, of course, are the first hurdle for the anti abortion advocate.

          • witless chum

            It’s the “embedded inside another person” part that people like Sebastian don’t seem to be able to grasp. I’m uterusless myself, but it sure sounds like a pretty big deal to me.

            As to where you draw the line in the tiny percentage of abortions that aren’t in the first trimester, between life or health of the mother and the vague idea that a fetus gets more and more human as it develops, that’s a hard question.

            I’d rather deal with the easy ones first, which will put concern trolls’ minds at ease (assuming they are forthright about their actual concerns and it’s not just horrified at the sluts).

            1. Contraception free and available to anyone who wants it.
            2. Abortions easily available everywhere and covered by medicaid.
            3. No waiting periods, no watching stupid videos, no scripts for doctors, no vaginal ultrasounds or other abuse of the woman seeking an abortion.
            4. Fair regulation of abortion clinics by state authorities. Less Kansas dicking around trying to harass clinics out of existence, more inspecting them to make sure they aren’t full of cat shit, for instance.

            Do that and there will be less hard cases to worry about.

    • Phil

      1 count of non murder

      Wait, they actually charged him with “1 count of non murder?” Can you link to that in PA state law for me? What’s the range of penalties for non murder?

      Don’t you claim to be some kind of legal professional?

      • T. Paine

        It’s a new crime in Sebastian-land. Only women can be charged, and penalties are the same as for jay-walking.

        • Malaclypse

          I ask you, do they give out Nobels for attempted chemistry?

  • Unsympathetic

    For once, Slate got the real story exactly right.

  • T. Paine

    But Saletan continues to be a dick! He’s half right, pointing out that Gosnell isn’t representative of abortion providers, but then continues his bullshit stigmatization of “late-term” abortions and providers. Christ, what an asshole.

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