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Turn Grozny to Rubble!



  1. Are Chechens white? Asking for a friend.
  2. Will the United States ever cease its strong support for Russian imperialism in the Caucasus?
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  • Literalreddy

    If they are Muslim, then the answer is no, because as we all know there are no white Muslims.

    • Anonymous

      Want to put money on a Caucasian v. European distinction popping up in the right wing, so that they can keep their Notions about Muslims?

      • One of the Blue

        How cute! Caucasian v. caucasian.

      • John

        What about Albanians and Bosniaks?

        • sibusisodan

          Bosniaks! Like that’s a word! It’s the kind of thing you’d imagine Joe Biden coming out with…Derp &c.

        • They are Balkan like the Greeks and Bulgarians.

    • Mondfledermaus

      Chechens are as Caucasian as anyone can possibly get. The Chechen language is classified as member of the Northeast Caucasian family . (There is also a Northwest Caucasian family and a South Caucasian Family all urelated).

      • გამარჯობატ! დიდი მადლობა!

      • I could use some elation today, doesn’t even have to be Ur-elation.

      • Pseudonym

        Don’t forget the Caucasian wingnuts!

  • Assuming that (1) these are the marathon bombers, (2) they are Chechen, and (3) their purpose was something like revenge against the U.S. for sitting around fat and happy* while Chechnya was pounded into rubble, I still don’t get it. This isn’t going to make a single person in the US who didn’t already care about Chechnya care about it. This is going to make a lot of idiot-Americans** hate Muslims more. This is possibly an excuse for yet another Russian pounding of Chechnya.

    *Or at least one out of two.

    **I know, I know.

    • I have to say I can’t recall a terrorist action to which my response (or anyone’s) was “Gosh, now that you’ve killed a bunch of people, I really care about the particular cause that resulted in you killing a bunch of people.”

      But then I have a weird theory that terrorist attacks come from the same mental set up that gives you sociopaths such as serial killers. (And in the case of the Beltway Snipers, there can be overlap.) They just want to kill people and Cause X is the justification for doing so.

      • I’ve never developed sympathy for mass killers (or wanna-be mass killers), but I usually understand their grievances and sometimes understand their logic. This one escapes me.

        • It’s not sympathy so much. When terrorism works, it’s because there is a lot of it and it forces a negotiation.

          The British, for instance, didn’t sympathize with Irish nationalism, but they did want the violence to end.

      • But yeah, sociopathy explains a lot.

      • Weren’t the Madrid bombings responsible for Spain getting out of the Iraq War?

        • OK, and …?

        • rea

          It was a lot more complicated than that–you could look it up.

          • I have to say I don’t recall it happening as “We’re out of here because some fucks blew shit up.”

            For one thing, our domestic chicken hawks would have had a conniption fit that made their anti-France antics look cute.

            • rea

              It was more like: (1) whether joining the Iraq War made any sense was already an issue between the conservative government and the socialists, (2) the cnservative government mishandled the bombing (trying to blame the Basques, for example), causing them to lose the election, and (3) the new government, as it planned before the bombing to do if elected, got out of Iraq.

        • Ethan

          Not particularly, no. The Madrid bombings didn’t change the PSOE’s stance on Iraq, they were already against it. It’s certainly POSSIBLE that a party that had been in power for eight years couldn’t have lost the election to the largest opposition party, which had formed the government for 14 years before the present government was elected without the terrorist attack. It’s POSSIBLE that even though the only reason they elected the PSOE was because of the attack in order to leave Iraq, the Spanish re-elected the PSOE four years later, with no prospect of returning to Iraq, with another few dozen seats. It’s also POSSIBLE that a swing against the government, if it had anything to do with the attack, was entirely based on blaming the war in Iraq for the attack, and not on blaming the government for failing to prevent it, or on the government’s ham-handed attempt to pin it on Basque separatists. But the case as really never been particularly strong, and on the level of political leaders, as opposed to voters, not leaving Iraq would have been precisely changing policy in response to a terrorist attack.

          • Yeah, that’s probably a more accurate picture than whatever media reports I was getting at the time.

        • The Irish

          The Socialist party winning an election was responsible for Spain getting out of the Iraq war. They won the election in part because the incumbents fucked up the handling of the Madrid bombings.

          • joe from Lowell

            …which suggests than an effective response, and some smart politicking by the incumbents (like the Repubicans after 9/11) would have entrenched the Conservatives, and lengthened Spain’s stay in Iraq.

            • rea

              It’s true that if the GWB administration had reacted to 9/11 by blaming the Basques, we probably wouldn’t have invaded Iraq.

              • The qualifier made me LOL.

              • mds

                It’s true that if the GWB administration had reacted to 9/11 by blaming the Basques, we probably wouldn’t have invaded Iraq.

                Eh, we would still have invaded in order to keep ETA in Iraq from operating with impunity in the ethnic Basque no-fly zone.

        • wengler

          Their government lied to them and tried to blame Basque nationalists.

        • Pseudonym

          Yes, I believe they took their armada and went home, but I think that the bombing was only one contributing factor.

    • If they wanted to get the Americans who sat around fat and happy, they shouldn’t have targeted a marathon, is all I’m sayin’.

      • the original spencer

        Football season was just too far off, I guess.

    • Karate Bearfighter

      Even if they are part of an organized group, you can’t assume the message is aimed primarily at Americans. Successfully conducting a terrorist attack can be a recruiting tool, a domestic political power play, a morale boost for supporters, or a little bit of everything.

      • Good point. I assumed, without evidence, that this was meant for US domestic attention.

    • Chatham

      Even if the reports that they are Chechnyan are correct, I don’t think we can assume that they did this on behalf of Chechnya, just like if they turned out to be from Tennessee we couldn’t assume that the motive was a pro-Tennessee one. There are plenty of possibilities. They could have been hired to do this. They could have started to view the Chechnyan war as part of a larger Christian against Muslim war, joined one of the militant groups with a similar view, and got sent to the US on a mission. They could be the equivalent of the school shooters, just pissed off at society and trying to strike out against it.

      It could be a mix of all three, or none. But I don’t think we have a whole lot of evidence right now to show that this 19 and 20 year old, if they are indeed Chechnyan and if they are indeed responsible for the bombs, acted in order to further some geopolitical goal.

      • hickes01

        C-man, I was thinking the same thing. These might be contract killers. A way for Chechen groups to raise funds to fight Russia.

    • Barry

      This does give Russia carte blanche for just going in an making the Next Chechyn War pretty much a war of extermination.

      • Russia basically had that carte blanche anyway. They are a nuclear power and they have a sphere of influence.

  • RPF

    They are certainly Caucasian…

  • Airborne Simian

    1.Yes (So are Iranians. Not sure why people refer to all Muslims as “brown people” so much)
    2. I assume that’s tongue-in-ccheek.

    • Matt Stevens

      1.Yes (So are Iranians. Not sure why people refer to all Muslims as “brown people” so much)

      I believe, according to the US Census, that Iranians are “white” because they’re of “Middle Eastern descent.” Cross the border into Pakistan and the folks you see will be “Asian.” No, I didn’t say it made sense.

      • Airborne Simian

        “Hindu” used to be its own racial category on the Census, believe it or not, and it included anyone from the Subcontinent inlcuding….Muslims.

        But Iranians really are caucasians. Give the Ayatollah a clean shave and a western suit and most Americans on the street would peg him as Greek or Sicilian.

        • DrDick

          Indians and Pakistanis are also Caucasians, though not in US law.

          • medrawt

            So are Arabs and North Africans, if you get down to it. This notion of Middle Eastern “brownness” doesn’t have anything to do with consistently distinguishable (hope I’m using this word correctly) phenotype.

            • Jeffrey Beaumont

              Arabs are semitic, not into-european (caucasian). North Africans are many different things.

              • divadab

                Chechens are Caucasian, but not Indo-European. The Chechen language is non-indo-european, but rather part of the ancient Caucasian language group. It’s hypothesised that it is related to the Hurrian and Uarartian, languages of the ancient fertile crescent and points north.

                • Total

                  Uh, is there a reason that people think that race-labels in the US have any connection with reality?

                • Because they’ve proven to be so incredibly accurate and useful, so many times?

              • DrDick

                Semites are also Caucasian, as are all the Middle Eastern and South Asian peoples.

              • medrawt

                Indo-European is a linguistic classification. Groups relevant to this discussion that don’t speak Indo-European languages, aside from those who speak Semitic languages: Basques, speakers of Uralic languages (Finns, Sami, Hungarians), Turks.

                With the possible exception of the Turks, it would take a truly iconoclastic racist of the modern era to argue that Finns and Basques aren’t, for the purposes of crude racial distinctions in the 21st century USA, white or Caucasian. (And the ancestors of the people living in Turkey spoke an Indo-European language prior to their conquest by the Turkish speaking folks, who got their start on the Eurasian steppe – Uighur, e.g., is also a Turkish language.)

                There’s no good reason to introduce language as an additional tool in attempting these large-scale ascientific classifications (after all, how many of the world’s black people are native speakers of an Indo-European language?) – the study of this stuff is the study of cultural attitudes. A hundred years ago the cultural attitude was that my ancestors (Portuguese and Spanish) weren’t white in quite the same way as British and Germans. Fifty years ago the idea that Arabs were white was uncontroversial in an educated “scientific” context. Today they’re Other.

                • John

                  People of Lebanese or Syrian Christian descent in the United States are certainly still considered white.

                • Jay C

                  Actually, believe it or not, Finns were considered as “non-whites” in US racist racial classifications for a long time, based on their supposed “Mongolian” ancestry. It wasn’t until, I think, 1903 or so that a judge ruled that their “Mongol” blood had become so diluted over time that Finns could indeed, be classed a “white folks”.

                • medrawt

                  Jay C – in defense of my knowledge of historical pseudoscience on the subject of human ethnicity, I was trying to hedge that by saying “iconoclastic … modern era” rather than going into a digression about the Finns, who at least have been speaking Finnish for most of recorded history, except for the part where lots of them speak Swedish. I wanted to save my digressions for the Turks, since they’re a more potent problem for the “linguistic identity indicates an ongoing genetic allegiance” prong of the “white = Indo-European” notion. And I bet a lot of contemporary Americans would consider the Turks something other than white, just because. Whereas the idea that Finnish people aren’t white would be absurd to anyone who didn’t already know the history you mention. (Or who watched that one episode of Community where it was mentioned.)

              • John

                What does being Indo-European have to do with being white or “Caucasian”? Basques, Finns, and Magyars are certainly white, but do not speak Indo-European languages.

            • Karen

              This is a subject that deserves more attention. The suspects have brown hair and brown eyes, making them look like just about anyone who isn’t East Asian or subsaharan African. This is why racial profiling always seemed stupid to me. Arabs, Hispanics, anyone from around the Mediterrean, all look remarkably similar, and similar to anyone from northern India, Pakistan, and large parts of northern Europe. It isn’t a useful description without information beyond physical appearance.

              • Karate Bearfighter

                This is an excellent point.

                • Karate Bearfighter

                  Just to clarify, you presumably mean “physical characteristics associated with those ethnic groups are remarkably similar”, and not anything else.

                • Karen

                  Exactly. Having brown hair, brown eyes, and an olive complexion, characteristics which are shared by the Iranian ayatollahs, Nicholas Maduro, Carlos Slim, the presidents of Spain and France, and about a billion other people.

              • And then you get into the fact that in the U.S. the designation “African-American” usually tells you the person isn’t blond/blue eyed, but beyond that good luck.

              • mds

                Arabs, Hispanics, anyone from around the Mediterrean, all look remarkably similar, and similar to anyone from northern India, Pakistan, and large parts of northern Europe.

                So … what you’re saying is, we’re completely hemmed in by terrorists.

                • Hogan

                  Lt. Tirebiter: What about the gooks?

                  Cpl. Pico: Bad news, Lieutenant. There are gooks all around here.

                  Cpl. Alvarado: They live here, Lieutenant — they got women and pigs and guns and everything.

                  Cpl. Pico: I was talkin’ to this one little gook…

                  Lt. Tirebiter: That’s swell, Corporal, but we’ve got orders to surround these little gooks!

                  Cpl. Alvarado: That’ll be easy, Lieutenant, there’s millions of ’em on all three sides of us.

                  Lt. Tirebiter: Hah! That means we got those little gooks right where we want ’em, right?

          • timb

            not all Indians. People from the South of India are very dark, owing to a Dravidian or Tamil ancestory

            • DrDick

              Tamils are Dravidians (which is a linguistic classification) and are generally classed as Caucasian. Some tribal populations are sometimes classed with Melanesians and Australian Aborigines.

      • See also people from the northern end of the African continent.

  • William Burns

    Turn Grozny to rubble? Hasn’t that already been done?

    • Kurzleg

      Then we’ll make Grozny “rubblier.”

      • Why make the rubble bounce?

        Because we can.

      • joe from Lowell

        It’ like, how much more rubbly can Grozny be? And the answer is, none. None more rubbly.

        • Kurzleg


        • the original spencer


    • calling all toasters

      Hasn’t that already been done?

      So had invading Afghanistan….

    • PSP

      Somehow, I can’t see Putin letting us send in the BUFFs to bomb Russian territory. All bouncing ruble must be dancing to Russian music.

      • Scott P.

        bouncing ruble


        • Hogan

          “Thank you, Bullwinkle, here’s a kopek for your trouble.”

          “No sir! Not one red cent!”

          • oldster

            Did they really get that into the script? That’s awesome. Why don’t they make shows like that any more?

      • Barry

        And at this point the Russian government can do as they please there.

      • Karen

        I wish I had the HTML chops to embed a video of explosions set to the Nutcracker music.

        • herr doktor bimler

          1812 overture not good enough?

          • Karen

            I was thinking of the rubble bouncing. It’s better to bounce to ballet music.

  • c u n d gulag

    CHECHENS?!?! – thinks I!!!!

    If you asked me, out of all of the f*cking countries that we’ve f*cked with over the f*cking decades, I’d have put f*cking Chechnya right around dead @!$%#ing last – after all, they’re Russia’s favorite whipping-boy.

    And vice-versa.

    I’d have put New Zealanders ahead of Chechnians.

    What, Moscow doesn’t have any @!$%#ing marathons?
    (Btw – I was chaperoning a college trip to Moscow, back in Jaunuary of ’95, when Chechen rebels were threatening to set off nuclear irradiating devices in parks around the city – fun times —NOT!!!)

    What’s their beef with us, the US?
    Couldn’t get dates for some prom?

    I can “get” terrorists from the Middle East coming here and killing people – even foreigners running a marathon.

    But people from the former USSR’s, or, now Russia’s, sphere of influence?





    Cue the flying-monkey’s!

    There goes immigration reform!

    Our Conservatives will blame any and everyJaun!

    • JL

      What’s their beef with us, the US?
      Couldn’t get dates for some prom?

      Possibly. The younger of the two, at least, went to Cambridge, MA’s public high school and was class of ’11 there, according to USA Today. The older one complained about having no friends in the US.

      These weren’t guys who came over from Chechenya in order to commit the bombing, though it sounds like they talked about Chechen stuff on social media. They were legal permanent residents who’d been living in the US for years. If the reports that they immigrated in 2002 or 2003 are accurate, the younger one has lived most of his life in the US.

      • So this could be Columbine: Bigger, Longer & Uncut.

      • c u n d gulag

        Well, in the last 3 or so decades, I’ve become pretty disappointed in this, the country of my birth.

        And I heard they’ve LOCKED-DOWN the entire city of f*cking BOSTON?
        BOSTON, AND SORROUNDING TOWNS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

        FOR ONE F*CKING GUY?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

        Hopefully, they’ll catch the surviving brother, alive.

        But, I doubt it.
        Everybody in authority is better off with him dead.

        They’ll say, ‘Well, it’s one thing to approach an armed suspect. It’s another kettle of Islamic terrorist fish when you have to approach an armed suspect, who might have a bomb strapped to him.”

        This guy’s a goner.

        I’m more nervous about this lock-down, than I am about anything else in this story!

        I think we’ve gone completely overboard in our over-reaction.


        Welcome to the “New” America:
        Where the only thing that will match the level of fear, is the number of camera’s.

        • Mondfledermaus

          They locked Boston to keep the population safe from the cops!!.

          Just lika in LA a few months ago, when the cops went apeshit and started ‘confusing’ just about anyone with the suspect.

          • JKTHs

            “Old Hispanic ladies should stay from windows lest they be mistaken for a 19 year old kid.”

        • Charlie

          Um yes, thanks for saying this. I am from Boston and have a lot of friends freaking out and tragedy-whoring on Facebook.

          Look, I’m sure it’s scary if you’re there. But they are shutting down the whole city to find one 19-year-old who is probably out of bullets?

          It all feels like a huge case of CYA on the part of law enforcement who let him get away, so they’re holding the city hostage.

        • Rhino

          Cundgulag, did a nine year old appropriate your pseudonym this morning?

          Your posts are not normally quite so exuberantly and hysterically punctuated.

          • c u n d gulag

            I’m just channeling my inner-child. ;-)

      • Brandon

        A classmate, teammate and friend called into NPR a bit ago. He considered him a close friend and has known him for years.

        It was the nephew of Robin Young, host of NPR’s “Here and Now,” and she’s on the air right now and also knew him a little bit.

      • In fact, the younger of the two is a second-year student at the Dartmouth, MA, campus of the University of Massachusetts (according to sources including the New Bedford Standard-Times, in a story which is eminently well-sourced). Being as that’s about 15 miles from here, I now am beginning to feel personally involved, however irrational that may be.

        Yeah, Columbine++ is what it is looking like from here.

        • the original spencer

          I still remember the radio jingles for that school back in the mid-1990s:

          “Make the most of you – at U-Mass Dartmouth!!!”

        • Interesting, one of the foremost western experts on Chechnya, Brian G. Williams teaches there.

  • Johan Friedrich Blumenbach

    Are Chechens white? Asking for a friend.


    • DrDick

      Definitely, under every “scientific” racial classification in the last two centuries, though nobody uses those classifications any more since there are no biological races.

      • Matt Stevens

        Sure there are! There are San bushmen in one race, and everyone else in the other.

        • DrDick

          Nope. The consensus among geneticists and physical anthropologists is that human beings simply do not have races, as there is too little genetic diversity in the species and there is more variation within populations than between them.

          • Matt Stevens

            a) You missed the irony by a wide mark
            b) To the extent that we can trace these things, the first discernible split within the human race occurred between those who settled southern Africa — ancestors of the San — and everyone else.
            c) The whole point was to satirize racial classifications, but again, it went over your head completely

            • DrDick

              I am aware of that distinction, but the problem is that there are people in this thread who do not understand that and it can be difficult to catch irony in text from people you do not know well.

          • Vance Maverick

            On the one hand, I get that. On the other, what fraction of Americans don’t “know”, for example, whether they are black? The social phenomenon is mutable, chimeric, fuzzy, inconsistent, invidious, etc., etc., but extremely strong.

            (The hash of categories upthread shows in a way how strong — people are using everything they pick up to scratch the same classificatory itch.)

  • Kurzleg

    I’m starting to get the feeling they didn’t wait for the goddamn signal.

  • Karen

    There was a movie on SYFY a couple of years ago about a giant snake under a prison in Antarctica where one of the bad guys was Chechen. It wasn’t very good.

    • They need to bring back MST just to tackle the SciFi movies, and then they can move on to America’s Most Haunted Underpants or whatever.

      • witless chum

        That’d be no fun, because Sifie isn’t really trying. The makers of The Giant Spider Invasion and Manos:Hands of Fate seemed have been attempting to make real movies.

        • sparks

          Doesn’t matter if SyFy isn’t trying. Sometimes we need to pick up some small crappy little film and throw it against the wall.

          Well,someone had to toss in a Ledeen reference.

  • Since when do we actually attack the country responsible for the attack?

    Who’s next on our hit list? Iran or North Korea?

    • c u n d gulag

      Nah – Iraq!
      We know the terrain.

      Or, some Central or South American country.
      We’ve had a lot of experience there, too.

      • One that just happens to have oil perhaps.

        • Snarki, child of Loki

          Hmmm….I hear Venezuela is very nice this time of year.

          No doubt it’s a Zombie Chavez/Friends of Hamas operation.

          • Maybe we should send a bunch of soldiers down to check on the local weather conditions.

          • Uncle Kvetch

            I hear Venezuela is very nice this time of year.

            And also too, those people have a fucking nerve, letting their Eeevil Dicktater die before we had a chance to take him out. Let’s roll!

    • bexley

      North Korea surely. I supply ready made reasoning for the wingnuts:

      1. Those commie Russkies were behind the attack.
      2. We need to attack some commies to get even.
      3. Commie North Korea looked at us kinda funny recently.

      Added bonus – revenge for North Korea’s sneak attack in Red Dawn.

      • Kurzleg

        Don’t forget that Kim Jong Un gave them the signal.

      • Mondfledermaus

        Nope, not North Korea, nor Russia.. those guy can fight back you know?

        Panama or Venezuela are much easier to bully.

        • JKTHs

          Can we rematch Grenada?

    • Anonymous

      You guys lack imagination. Bush & Cheney would be gunning for Venezuela. Or maybe Guinea-Bissau. What the hell, might as well roll the dice, right?

      • oldster

        Sweep it all up. Related as well as inter-galactic. Commence bombing the Crab Nebula.

        • Uncle Kvetch

          The more I think about it, Guinea-Bissau is really annoying, what with the two names an all. It’s like they couldn’t decide. Well, make up your fucking minds, dudes…or there’s about 50,000 jarheads ready to make it up for you…

          • oldster

            You know what’s worse than that?


            Can’t even make up their minds between the same thing twice!!

            Baden-Baden. Grrr. Might as well name your damned town, I don’t know, “New York New York.”

  • Slocum

    Why is everyone surprised its is Chechens? (Assuming it actually is, of course.) That they’re Chechen doesn’t say anything about their motivation, which might be more-or-less non-political. They could have done it out of nihilistic boredom, or because someone paid them or otherwise put them up to it. Or maybe their reasoning is political but rather convoluted (anyone with experience with people from Eastern Europe and Central Asia should be familiar with some fairly complicated political imaginations).

    Anyway, speculating now about why Chechens (again, assuming, etc.) is pointless.

    • Maybe some psychotic dicks just happened to meet and the result was a bloody bromance.

      • JL

        They were brothers, aged 26 (the now-dead one) and 19 (the living one). Big Bro could have recruited Little Bro (or the other way around, but I’d expect the older to be the lead).

        • Karate Bearfighter

          WBUR interviewed a high school friend/acquaintance of the younger suspect this morning. He described him as a friendly, popular, outgoing kid.

        • Dear God, I hadn’t caught that. Their poor family members.

      • Unsympathetic

        Although it would be irresponsible not to speculate, I don’t think robbing a convenience store at gunpoint and jacking an SUV is part of a well-planned plot, terrorism, international intrigue, or anything other than 2 disconnected crazy people.

        • Davis X. Machina

          That’s a slow night in a lot of neighborhoods where a lot of poor people live.

        • BigHank53

          My lovely spouse, the project manager, texted me: “Didn’t these idiots have a plan for getting out of Boston?”

          Just be glad most terrorist wannabees are dumb young men.

          • joe from Lowell

            Their plan to get out of Boston was probably the same as Harris and Klebold’s plan to get out of Columbine.

    • Snarki, child of Loki

      “Never go against a Sicilian Chechian when death is on the line!”

  • The Russians have already pounded Grozny into rubble twice since the end of the Soviet Union. Some estimates are that the Russians managed to kill close to 100,000 Chechens or about 10% of the population during these two wars. Then of course there were the genocidal deportations of 23-29 February (it was a leap year) 1944 in which the NKVD sent almost the whole population to Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan and close to a third of the population, about 125,000 people died in less than five years due to poor material conditions. I do not think the US can top the Soviets and Russians in this matter, but since Chechnya is legally still part of the Russian Federation doing so would require going to war against Moscow. I don’t see that in the cards.

    Chechens like other Caucasian people are of course White. That is where the term Caucasian to describe White people comes from. But, White groups can be racialized by other White groups and there is a fairly long history of this in Europe. The whole history of anti-semitism in fact falls into this category. Since race is a constructed category it can be constructed along the lines of cultural including religious signifiers. It does not have to be constructed along genetic and biological lines like Francine Hirsch insists. So White groups like Jews and Bosnian Muslims and of course Chechens have been racialized on the basis of ancestral religion and culture. Of course the orthodox academic position in US academia as represented by Hirsch is that there was never any racial politics in the USSR.

    The US does not appear to have any policy with regards to the North Caucasus other than to recognize like every other state continued Russian sovereignty over the region. This position is a tacit support of Russian rule and repression in the region. But, it is not like Palestine where the US is the only thing keeping the occupying regime from going the way of the British and French empires.

    • Anonymous

      “But, it is not like Palestine where the US is the only thing keeping the occupying regime from going the way of the British and French empires.”

      Tell that to the Israeli Armed Forces.

      • joe from Lowell

        Seriously. This isn’t 1980.

      • If the US stopped using its UN Veto to protect Israel it would be slapped with international sanctions like South Africa was. Unlike South Africa Israel is not self sufficient in everything except oil and is far more reliant upon international trade for its economic existence.

        • MPAVictoria

          “If the US stopped using its UN Veto to protect Israel it would be slapped with international sanctions like South Africa was. Unlike South Africa Israel is not self sufficient in everything except oil and is far more reliant upon international trade for its economic existence.”

          I think you are dreaming if you think Europe and the US/Canada are going to blockade the only Jewish state on earth into starvation only a couple generations after the holocaust.
          /At least I hope you are dreaming.

          • ajay

            I think you are dreaming if you think Europe and the US/Canada are going to blockade the only Jewish state on earth into starvation only a couple generations after the holocaust.

            If you don’t know the difference between sanctions and blockade, you should.
            If you do, you’re deliberately dissembling.

            • MPAVictoria

              “If you don’t know the difference between sanctions and blockade, you should.
              If you do, you’re deliberately dissembling.”

              Oops. Substitute sanctions for blockade there. My mistake.

    • Robert Farley


      • MacGyver

        you forgot to hashtag that.

    • rea

      The US does not appear to have any policy with regards to the North Caucasus other than to recognize like every other state continued Russian sovereignty over the region.

      In fact, we just recently announced that a number of Russian officials were banned from travel to the US due to human rights violations, including the president of Chechnyan and two other Chechnyans:


      • Anonymous

        Minus a few mild complaints about human rights violations, the Clinton and Bush administrations were unconcerned about Russian actions in Chechnya.

        • rea

          Putin has long complained that the US was insufficently supportive of Russia’s efforts in Chechnya, and that we ought to regard Russia vs. Chechnya as another front in the War On Terror (TM), rather than an ethnic struggle.

          • rea

            In fact, in terms of public expressions of being pissed off at the US, there is more of that on the government side.

    • The Irish

      White groups can be racialized by other White groups and there is a fairly long history of this in Europe.

      Fookin tell me about it.

      • Who is Fookin?

        • mds

          Fookin Toole, the nineteenth-century Irish philosopher. His devastating rhetorical style is immortalized by the habit of responding to an irrefutable argument by saying “‘Fook’, you.”

  • bluefoot

    Local NPR station is interviewing someone who went to high school with one of the suspects here in Cambridge. So he’s been here in the US (and in Cambridge) for quite a few years. Maybe we’ll invade Cambridge? It is after all, socialist…

  • Airborne Simian

    Their digital footprints reveal both are religious Muslims.

    Muslim terror. again.

    • It must be the PLO.

      Pancake Liberation Organization

    • c u n d gulag


      WTF have we ever done to them?

    • In light of Paul Kevin Curtis, may we start Gitmoizing white people, Mississippians, conspiracy theorists, etc.? I’m suspecting you won’t enjoy getting your testicles wired up to a car battery, will you?

      (No, of course we’re not going to go after Elvis impersonators. They’re God’s most holy children.)

      • Airborne Simian

        What makes you think I support GITMO or civil liberties violations?

        • witless chum

          I’m sorry, we’ll wait until a Republican is back in the White House so you can support those things again.

        • Depends. Which party is currently in the White House?

        • Rhino

          I’m not sure why he thinks you have any balls to worry about… As far as I can see you have been neutered by fear in every post you ever made.

    • rea

      And you know, by all reports, their digital footprints do NOT show that they are relgious Muslims.

      • Malaclypse

        Flying Monkey only knows what Malkin and Pammycakes tell him.

        • the original spencer

          Pammycakes sound disgusting and bitter.

          Stick with waffles. Much safer.

    • DrDick

      Unlike the vast majority of terrorist attacks in the US since 1950, which have been committed by white, Christian, rightwing extremists. Indeed, they have committed more than everybody else combined.

      • Airborne Simian

        could have something to do with the fact that white Christians are, well, a hell of a lot more numerous than Muslims. per capita, however….

        • Malaclypse

          Those are some fast-moving goalposts.

        • joe from Lowell

          could have something to do with the fact that white Christians are, well, a hell of a lot more numerous than Muslims.

          And yet, when faced with a bomb attack in the US, your mind immediately goes to a group that you now acknowledge is less likely to be behind it.


        • DrDick

          Nope. Not even close. The white conservative Christians are far more likely to commit terrorist acts in this country than everybody else combined by any meaningful metric (i.e., excluding the voices in your head).

          • joe from Lowell

            per capita?

            • DrDick

              The problem with that metric is what is the comparative population. For domestic terrorists, the metric would be the size of the groups in the US population, where conservative Christians still win. To include either World Trade Center bombing the comparison is conservative Christian American terrorist/Conservative Christians in US versus Muslim terrorists versus the global Muslim population, where the margin is even larger.

              • joe from Lowell

                If the denominator is “global Muslim population,” should the numerator be “global Muslim terrorists” or “Muslim terrorists in the U.S.?”

                • DrDick

                  Since the metric was “more likely to commit terrorist acts in this country”, it is actually attacks by Muslim terrorists in the US, which are negligible. Even when you add in “plots” (an amorphous and dubious category) the numbers are insignificant.

                • joe from Lowell

                  Since the metric was “more likely to commit terrorist acts in this country”,

                  …the it doesn’t make any sense for the denominator to be “global Muslim population, since Muslims in India and Pakistan can’t carry out anything “in this country.”

                • joe from Lowell

                  Anyway, for both sets – Muslims in the U.S. and white Americans in the U.S. – we’re talking about vanishingly small percentages that are involved in terrorism.

                • DrDick

                  since Muslims in India and Pakistan can’t carry out anything “in this country.

                  Are you being deliberately dense here? The distinction is between domestic Muslim and international Muslim terrorists. 9/11 (and the earlier World Trade Center bombing) was not carried out by American Muslims, but by Saudis and Egyptians here on temporary visas, so yes, Indian and Pakistani Muslims could easily commit terrorist acts here. We thus have two, related metrics, comparing per capita attacks in the US by domestic rightwing conservative Christians and American Muslims on one hand and comparing attacks in the US by domestic rightwing conservative Christians or ALL Muslims. The comparative base for the former is the American Muslim community and for the latter it is the global Muslim. community.

                • joe from Lowell

                  You lose your temper when you get cornered.

                  It’s a good way to tell when the argument is over.

                • DrDick

                  Cornered? What the fuck are you talking about? You just shift the goal posts when you lose, just as you have done here.

                • joe from Lowell

                  Deep breaths.

                  It will be ok.

                  Not interested in talking to you more.

      • John (not McCain)

        It makes more sense to be worried, if one wants to be worried, about religious conservatives generally than about any particular flavor of religious conservative.

        • BigHank53

          All flavors of theocracy taste bad.

          • Dead burnt bodies and veins in my teeth.

        • DrDick

          So true and they afflict every major religion.

    • Chatham

      Well, angry young men again. Though to be fair, it’s not always angry young men. Sometimes it’s angry middle-aged men.

      • Angry old men have been known to cheerlead this type of thing.

      • E.g. John Allen.

    • Anonymous

      Tweets reveal the borthers smoked a lot of weed.

    • Karen

      You do know that most people type with their fingers, and “digits” comes from the Latin word for fingers, so it would be more accurate to say they left digital fingerprints. Leaving digital footprints is really awkward, so if they had to type with their feet they likely couldn’t make bombs.

      I know that paragraph makes very little sense, but neither did your comment.

  • witless chum

    1. Nope, assuming they’re Muslims.
    2. Seems likely they’re either Al Qaeda types of Ryan Lanza types, so targeting the U.S. would make “sense” in either case.

  • Decrease Mather

    Listening to a local radio show for about 2 minutes when in a convenience store(and this was not right wing talk), I heard:

    1. Probably Muslims
    2. “Chechnya sided with the Nazis during WW2, which is all you need to know about these people”
    3. caller complaining about why we let these people in.
    4. The kid is updating his Facebook page, these kids today…why don’t they ever sit down and talk to Mom and Dad?

    • Two is false. This was the official justification given by the Stalin regime to deport the Chechens, but there were never any Chechen military units organized by the Germans. In fact the Germans never occupied Chechnya and there were very few Chechen POWs for the Germans to recruit. Rather there was a massive anti-Soviet insurgency in Chechnya under Hasan Izrailov starting in 1940 when the Soviets were still allied with the Nazis as a result of the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact of 23 August 1939.

      • Woodrowfan

        Croatia, Chechnya–to-MAY-toe, to-MAH-to.

        • Well Bosnia was under the rule of the NDH and the Ustashe considered Bosnian Muslims to be Croatians that had converted during Ottoman rule.

      • joe from Lowell

        The ever-reliable Wikipedia sez:

        German support

        On August 25, 1942, nine German-trained saboteurs from Abwehr’s Nordkaukasisches Sonderkommando Schamil landed near the village of Berzhki in the area of Galashki, where they recruited 13 local Chechens for their cause. Later in August in September, a total of 40 German agentswere dropped in various locations. All these groups received an active assistance from up to 100 Chechens. Their mission was to seize the Grozny petroleum refinery in order to prevent its destruction by the retreating Soviets, and to hold it until the German First Panzer Army arrived. However, the German offensive stalled after capturing only the ethnic-Russian town of Malgobek in Ingushetia.[5] The Germans made concerted efforts to coordinate with Israilov, but his refusal to cede control of his revolutionary movement to the Germans, and his continued insistence on German recognition of Chechen independence, led many Germans to consider Israilov as unreliable, and his plans unrealistic. Although the Germans were able to undertake covert operations in Chechnya—such as the sabotage of Grozny oil fields—attempts at a German-Chechen alliance floundered.[2]
        That the Chechens actually were allied to the Germans is highly questionable and usually dismissed as false.[10][11][12] They did have contact with the Germans. However, there were profound ideological differences between the Chechens and the Nazis (self-determination versus imperialism), neither trusted the other, and the German courting of the Cossacks angered the Chechens (their traditional enemies with which they still had numerous land disputes and other conflicts). Mairbek Sheripov reportedly gave the Ostministerium a sharp warning that “if the liberation of the Caucasus meant only the exchange of one colonizer for another, the Caucasians would consider this [a theoretical fight pitting Chechens and other Caucasians against Germans] only a new stage in the national liberation war.”[13]

        • At most 100 collaborators out of a population of almost 400,000 people is pretty small and not a good reason to brutally punish 387,229 (official recorded number of Chechen deportees) people. That means that at least 387,129 of these people were completely innocent of the false charge of collaborating with the Nazis.

          • joe from Lowell

            Good job reading your own little story line into a dry recitation of facts.

            • It is called interpretation. It is what historians do. But, nowhere does it say there were more than 100 collaborators and we know that over 387,000 people mostly women and children were deported for the alleged crime of helping the Nazis.

      • Decrease Mather

        This is the morning show (Kimberly was the one who made the Nazi reference).

        That top story is out of date, isn’t it?


    • the original spencer

      2. “Chechnya sided with the Nazis during WW2, which is all you need to know about these people”

      “And don’t even get me started on those fucking I-talians …”

      • Data Tutashkhia

        Init “eye-talian”?

    • 2. “Chechnya sided with the Nazis during WW2, which is all you need to know about these people”

      The only way this could be better is if the caller had a German accent.

  • Kurzleg

    WHDH had an interview with a car mechanic who said that they brought cars there for repair with New York plates. The mechanic described the cars as belonging to their friends. I wonder if there’s concern that they got involved with a larger cell?

    • Woodrowfan

      AHAH! Yankees fans! I KNEW it!

  • kg

    I hear this guy was an interior decorator!

    • Decrease Mather

      But his house looked like shit.

    • past contingent

      Yes, what did happen to that anthrax mailerinterior decorator anyway?

      (sadly in researching the decorator I drilled to Chase interviews and beyond for sourcing)

  • Anonymous

    Apparently, the First Chechnya War attracted former Mujahedeen fighters, led by Ibn al-Khattab and financed by wealthy citizens of Gulf States. Al-Khattab stayed after the war and pushed a “pan-Islamic Jihadist ideology,” aided by the fact that he could provide food, shelter, and work to a destitute Chechnyan populous (that being said, many Chechyan rejected his views, creating internal turmoil).

    Source (See Sections 18-26)

    • Mujahadeen. Those guys were Reagan’s “moral equivalent of our founding fathers” as recall.

      • Hogan

        Also the contras in Nicaragua.

        I don’t think much of the Founding Fathers, but I would never go so far as that.

      • Chatham

        Keep in mind that at the time they were like us, good God fearing people that we could relate to, as opposed to the strange God-less USSR that we couldn’t understand. Post-Cold War, the USSR is talked about as being rational and secular, as opposed to the strange religious fanatics we now face that are incomprehensible.

        The enemy of my enemy is someone like me, or something.

        • Brandon C.

          The enemy of my enemy is someone like me, or something.


    • joe from Lowell


  • oldster

    The older, Tamerlan, is pictured on a site linked to at Balloonjuice. A lot of his quotes there are standard fundamentalist puritanical religious nut: he is very devout, and he will not take his shirt off around girls, because they will think impure thoughts.

    So it’s your familiar steaming vat of religious extremism, sexual repression, and anti-feminist women-hatred.

    I say we round up Pat Robertson first, then lay siege to Fat Tony Scalia’s compound. He fits the profile, too, and he has caused a lot of American deaths.

    God I hate religious extremists.

    • I won’t take my shirt off around girls either.

      It’s too painful watching them try to gouge their eyeballs out with their car keys.

      • Keaaukane

        I was also afraid (hoped) taking my shirt off caused women to swoon into impure thoughts, but they reassured me this was not the case.

      • BigHank53

        You should move to the South, where manners are still practiced. Here they just smile glassily, then find a nice bush to throw up behind.

      • DrDick

        Yep. Me, too.

      • rea

        The line about not taking his shirt off around women accompanies a pictue of him, with his shirt off, boxing a woman.

        This photo gallery is about him as a golden gloves boxer:


        • oldster

          Yeah, I hope the girlfriend is now having a heart-to-heart with the FBI. Her life just got a lot more complicated, and probably not in a you-won-the-lottery sort of way.

    • DocAmazing

      You name your kid Tamerlan, then you wonder why he’s trying to amass a mound of skulls…

      • oldster

        And name the younger kid “Joker,” spelled funny. They were off to a bad start.

        Yeah, we should round up everyone who shares a name with a genocidal maniac.

        Josef Scarborough, to begin with. And then pretty much all of the Pols, of both parties.

      • witless chum

        Genghis Charlemagne Stalin Napoleon Saladin the Lion-Hearted was apparently taken.

        • joe from Lowell

          Genghis Charlemagne Stalin Napoleon Saladin

          …Percival Wulfrick Brian…

  • ironic irony

    Listening to the interview of their uncle, realizing that his nephews did this, is heartbreaking.

    “People who do this do not deserve to be alive on this earth.”

    He admitted that he hasn’t had contact with them in years, but that the youngest was a quiet boy.

  • Gepap

    The fact that someone who looks like a white guy might be a Muslim will shock many of the mouth-breathers…

    That said, the reality that the older brother looks to have done this for Islamist reasons is going to give the wingers all the evidence they need to claim a round of “victimization” by the hands of the insidious evil lefties who wanted to blame this on them, and to some extent it will be deserved, guys. While I also thought it very likely to be domestic terrorism based on the date of the event, the possibility was always there and significant that it could be someone self-identifying as an Islamist. After all, we had the example of the attempted Times Square bombing two years ago to show that local disaffected people could grab on to the Islamist cause.

    So I know that the instinct will be to speak of delicious breakfast foods, but anyone claiming to attempt to form opinions based on reality and not ideology needs to own up to having wanted the perpetrators to fit some stereotypical enemy – in this case, the right-wing loon.

    • jim, some guy in iowa

      i won’t “own up” to that at all. let law enforcement do its work and make an arrest (preferable to the scenario that seems likely) and go from there, is my thinking

    • Walt

      Speak for yourself, motherfucker. My attitude the whole time has been “I don’t know who did it.” Feel free to engage in showy hand-wringing, if that’s your thing, though.

      • Uncle Kvetch

        My attitude the whole time has been “I don’t know who did it.”

        Same here.

      • DrDick

        Exactly. It is also the case that these young men do in fact seem to be ” right-wing loons”, i.e., conservative religious extremists. I fail to understand people’s inability to understand that all religious fundamentalism is a conservative ideology, regardless of the religion.

    • joe from Lowell

      While I also thought it very likely to be domestic terrorism based on the date of the event, the possibility was always there and significant that

      it could be someone self-identifying as an Islamist.

      Would it be overly-pedantic to note that this was both domestic terrorism and carried out by someone self-identifying as an Islamist?

      These two came here as kids, grew up in Cambridge, and went to school there. Domestic Islamist terrorism: it’s a thing now.

      • Gepap

        Yes, it would be overly pedantic in this case. After all, that attempted Times Square bombing suspect lived in the US, but I didn’t see him being put on lists of domestic terrorists.

        • joe from Lowell

          The Times Square bomber moved to the U.S. after college, while these two grew up here. He also traveled to Pakistan – North Waziristan – before the attacks, and trained in explosives there. According to the FBI report, his car-bomb plot was hatched there.

    • oldster

      “anyone claiming to attempt to form opinions based on reality and not ideology needs to own up to having wanted the perpetrators to fit some stereotypical enemy”

      That is really, really, stoopid.

      A) In fact, I did not form any opinions, and I did not want the perps to be one thing or another.

      B) Even if I had, in fact, wanted them to be Mitt’s sons Tagg, Thagg, and Dagg, my wanting something does not prove that I let it interfere with my opinion-formation. I want there to be milk in the fridge in the morning: I form my opinion by opening the door and checking.

      So long as I didn’t form my opinion until actual evidence emerged, then what I “wanted” has nothing to do with anything.

      So go off and apologize for your own irrationality, if you want to, but I have done nothing other than basing my opinions on reality.

    • joe from Lowell

      I didn’t want the perpetrators to fit some stereotypical enemy. I considered it likely that they were American Patriot-Movement types based on the evidence, but wanting didn’t come into it.

      • rea
        • joe from Lowell

          A better headline would have been “Lowellians Fight Terrorists,” or perhaps, “Terrorist Fought in Lowell.”

        • From the article:

          “When I heard, it was shocking because Lowell boxing helps them along in life,” he added. “Unfortunately, some kids get left of center and get themselves in problems.”

          Left of center? What?

    • Karen

      No. If my wants had any ability to influence anything, there would be no bombs. These things wouldn’t happen at all. If I wanted anything about this specific incident beyond hoping no one else died, it would have been that the perps couldn’t be forced into some category useful for wongnuts loons to squawk about. As it is, if these kids are responsible, then I hope the survivor is arrested.

      • Anna in PDX

        I endorse this view. Thanks.

    • BobS

      I think there’s a difference between what I wanted and what I expected, considering the symbolic significance this week holds for right wing extremists, i.e. tax day, the Waco anniversary, the OKC anniversary. Plus the fact there was a 26 second silent period and mile 26 of the race was dedicated to the 26 Newtown victims while gun control is resisted by that same domestic right wing.

    • wengler

      Jesus Christ, the only thing the bombings ever pointed toward was rank amateurs.

      I will own up and say that I thought it was only one guy and it ended up being two guys.

      The ideology behind it doesn’t prove a fucking thing. This was a domestic terrorist attack by (maybe?) rightwing religious fundamentalists.

  • Woodrowfan

    One of my students in my morning class (on immigration of all things) is Ukrainian. Boy, she had some choice words about Chechens.

    • oldster

      But–foreigners harboring stereotypes of foreigners??

      That’s unpossible!

      • Walt

        My stereotype of foreigners is that they spend all of their time talking about their stereotypes of other foreigners.

        • oldster

          Hah! That’s typical of people from your village. People from my village would never behave that way!

          • Walt

            The people in my village only act that way when they’re drunk, which is all the time, since we’re a fun-loving people. The people in your village hate life.

            • Woodrowfan
            • oldster

              My village preserves the austere pride of its ancestral customs! A noble though hardy manner of life that the gods gave to us when the world was made!

              Not like your village, in which any pig will sleep with his sister, and eat foods that we would not touch with our feet!

              Go, you and your foreigners, you disgust me with your uncleanness! Also, you are too fastidious, about the wrong things!

              • Walt

                Our pigs have attractive sisters, because they’ve never mated with any of your men.

                • oldster

                  That’s not what our men tell me.

                  Nudge nudge, oink oink, know what I mean.

        • Anna in PDX

          This is what I always say about the French.

      • joe from Lowell

        I was once tasked will selling off a little strip of city-owned land between two houses. One was the residence of a Portuguese immigrant, the other an apartment house owned by a Cambodian immigrant.

        I went out to meet with the former, and it took me a little while to understand him through his accent. When I puzzled out what he was saying, I realized that he was complaining about Cambodian immigrants.

        “Dey should-a go home!”

        • Walt

          During the Internet bubble, there was a woman interviewed in the newspaper complaining about all of the new people moving into the Mission District in San Francisco, ruining for the long-term residents. It came out that she’d been living in the Mission District for all of 2 years.

          • This is why I LOL when the Megan McCardigans of the world bitch about conditions in D.C.

            Do shut up you sad, annoying parvenus.

    • DrDick

      One of my Ph.D. students is a Georgian, though I have not spoken to her recently, as she is in Georgia conducting research.

      • Woodrowfan

        Athens or Atlanta?

        • DrDick


          • Woodrowfan


            Seriously, recently I watched a movie about the Russian-Georgian War. Horrifying…. I missed the name of the film, just happened to catch it while channel-surfing..

            • ironic irony

              5 Days of War, perhaps?

              • Woodrowfan

                That’s it. ty

            • Pseudonym

              So who was Russia’s Sherman?

          • medrawt

            As my college roommate and I used to say, “Oil, not peaches. Stalin, not Carter.”

            • rea

              Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out
              They leave the West behind
              And Moscow girls make me sing and shout
              And Georgia’s always on my my my my my my my mind.

            • UserGoogol

              Well, one of those people is history’s greatest monster.

      • Karen

        My younger son’s piano teacher is from Tblisi. He looks like Walter Koenig and has a Slavic accent, meaning that my husband and I call him Ensign Checkov with each other and live in fear of son hearing us.

        • Could be worse. He could look like Walter Koenig and not have a Slavic accent, so he’d remind you of Bester.

          • Karen

            True. Still, it is a challenge to avoid saying “Aye, aye Keptin” when he gives me instructions about practice records.

    • More proof that America would still be a cluster fuck of bigotry even if you took out all of the brown[ish] folks.

      You’re welcome Non-Brit, Germanic Americans!

  • ironic irony

    Reich wingers on terrorist acts carried out by Muslims:

    “Deport all Muslims in America! They’re terrorists! It’s liberals fault- they are too tolerant,”

    Reich wingers on terrorist acts carried out by fellow reich wingers:

    “Lone wolf! They were acting alone! They don’t represent me! It’s liberals fault- they are intolerant of my intolerance!”

    And on it goes.

  • Data Tutashkhia

    Are Chechens white?

    Well, in Russia they, and all other ‘Caucasians’ (people from the Caucasus), are often called ‘blacks’. Or ‘black-assed’. Doesn’t matter if they are Muslims or Christians (‘you, Georgian black-assed ugly mug…’). A social construct, as they say.

    • Anna in PDX

      I hear that “Grozny” is Russian for “Dirty”

      • Data Tutashkhia

        No, ‘Grozny’ means something like ‘terrifying’, ‘fearsome’. Like, Ivan the Terrible is ‘Ivan Grozny’ in Russian.

        But these guys were born nad grew up far away from Chechnya, apparently. In Kyrgyzstan. And lived in the US for the last 6-7 years. Weird story; hard to imagine what had happen with them.

        • Anna in PDX

          Thanks for the correction. Russian is not one of the languages I know anything about so I am sorry I got it wrong.

          Yeah, I don’t even. The article from Mother Jones linked two posts above this one was actually kind of upsetting. I was wanting them to be caught so we can have some answers but it seems to just bring more questions.

      • Lurker

        Actually, it means “stern” or “fearsome”. Ivan the Terrible is, in Russian, Иван Грозный​, just like the city, Грозный.

        • Anna in PDX

          I sure learn something from this blog every day. Thanks

      • You are thinking of griaznyi which does mean dirty.

  • Chesternut

    You guys are obsessed by so called race — which doesn’t even exist.

    The potent fact about those murderous jackasses is that they’re MUSLIM, and islam, being an evil political supremacist death cult, is not related to race.

    • joe from Lowell

      Right, our objections to the reports about “dark-skinned male” show that we’re the real racists.

      Of course they do.

    • I’ll have mine with maple syrup please!

      • Anyone have any good carb-conscious pancake recipes?

        • It is not carb conscious, but here they often use instant fufu mix (cassava) to make pancakes.

    • DrDick

      And the vast majority of terrorist attacks in the US have been committed by white, CHRISTIAN conservatives! Christianity is clearly the ” an evil political supremacist death cult.” Thank you for playing.

    • Data Tutashkhia

      islam, being an evil political supremacist death cult

      Well, it’s kinda big for a cult: a quarter of the world population.

      As for ‘evil’: that may be, but apparently not as much a Christianity, at least in some cases:

      The number of Rwandan Muslims increased after the 1994 genocide due to large numbers of conversions.[8] Many Muslims had sheltered refugees, both Hutu and Tutsi.[citation needed] Some converts state that they converted to Islam because of the role that some Catholic and Protestant leaders played in the genocide.[9] Human-rights groups have documented both incidents in which Christian clerics permitted Tutsis to seek refuge in churches, then surrendered them to Hutu death-squads, as well as instances of Hutu priests and ministers encouraging their congregations to kill Tutsis.

    • Warren Terra

      The amazing thing is that civilization has survived so long, given your assertion that there are a billion members of “an evil political supremacist death cult”, and that millions of them hide among us, hidden by their pretense of being our friends and neighbors.

      The other alternative is that 99.99% or more of Muslims don’t resemble your description – just a Tim McVeigh doesn’t represent all midwestern White Protestants.

    • Pseudonym

      The problem Chesternut has isn’t that they’re part of an evil political supremacist death cult, it’s that they’re part of the wrong evil political supremacist death cult.

      • jb


        Chesternut is the kind of “Christian” who thinks that 99 percent of the world is going to hell. He essentially thinks that people who don’t share his exact beliefs are inhuman devils. He thinks the modern world is evil, and that we should go back to the Middle Ages, when women were chattel and “heretics” were burned at the stake. He’s also the kind of fundamentalist who believes that his religion has the right, nay the duty, to dominate the world and force everyone to follow its laws. He might not be capable of blowing up a mosque, or shooting Muslims, but he would have no problem with those that do.

        In short, everything that he accuses Islam of, applies to his version of Christianity.

  • Chesternut


    See the “worldview” section of the thug’s Facebook page.

    • Woodrowfan

      change a word here and there and he’d be welcome at CPAC and you’d happily read his blog.

  • Chesternut

    Now you guys should understand that islam as nothing to do with race nor skin colour.

    Criticizing islam is not “racist”. Since there are murderous Muslims hellbent to actualize the caliphate of every pigments.

    • Like Christians?

    • witless chum

      And yet you guys manage to make it seem a shitload like racism, somehow. For instance, tarring an entire religion because some members of it say it requires them to bomb marathons.

      • jb

        Strictly speaking, that isn’t racism, but raw religious bigotry.

        *So obviously its perfectly ok* *Sarcasm*.

    • Uncle Kvetch

      “The caliphate of every pigments” sounds like a pretty cool place, actually. I think it was one of the deleted sequences in Yellow Submarine.

    • DrDick

      Except that the primary terrorist threat, according to the DoJ, is white, conservative Christians. You know, asshats just like you!

    • Jaime

      I’ve often thought that with all the sophist carping over the word ‘racist’ by folks like Chesternut, there should be a revival of the word ‘bigot’ in all its cromulence.

    • OmerosPeanut

      If we’re going to go around judging groups by their biggest assholes, God help the rest of any group you associate with.

    • Pseudonym

      Is actualizing the caliphate better or worse than imminentizing the eschaton?

  • LOVE how you have all the gifts wrapped – so pretty! Your swap partner was a lucky gal!!

  • Thanks for finally talking about > Turn Grozny to Rubble!
    – Lawyers, Guns & Money : Lawyers, Guns & Money < Loved it!

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