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Let’s not argue and bicker about who killed who

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For Trump, I suppose this counts as subtle:

President Trump said he condemns hatred and bigotry on “many sides” in Charlottesville, Virginia, in remarks from New Jersey, his first since white nationalist group protests turned violent and resulted in at least one death on Saturday.

“We’re closely following the terrible events unfolding in Charlottesville, Virginia,” Mr. Trump said. “We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides.”

In his remarks, the president failed to mention the displays of white nationalism or Nazi symbols present in Charlottesville Saturday.

“It’s been going on for a long time in our country,” Mr. Trump said of the hatred and bigotry in Charlottesville. “Not Donald Trump. Not Barack Obama. It’s been going on for a long, long time.”

Anybody want to take a crack at translating the last three sentences from Trumpspeak into English?

The bottom line here of course is that fascists and anti-fascists are both to blame. (To be fair, the mainstream media seems much less prone to both sides do it ism than they were six months ago. To be just, that is literally the least they can do after all they did to bring this situation about).

This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

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  • the word is “Nazism”, Donald. say it.

    • Bub, the cynical zombie

      He’ll never say it. He knows whose side they’re on. That is Trump’s base, in all their rancid, racist glory.

      • CrunchyFrog

        Not an exaggeration. Without the white supremacist vote he doesn’t get the GOP nomination. This is his base.

        Our fucking media won’t admit this to themselves, let alone acknowledge it. Nor will they acknowledge that these bigots believe 1000 things that are provably untrue (like: Blacks don’t have to pay the costs of college) because of a massive right wing propaganda organization with Fox News as the keystone.

        • JMP

          Look, racism is really awful, so to acknowledge that we must never, ever call anyone racist no matter how extremely racist they are.

          • SpiderDan

            The only thing worse than racism is calling someone else a racist.

        • Yestobesure

          Think of the reaction to the “deplorables” diagnosis

    • raypc800

      Nazism Trump cannot say it or condemn it or he would be attacking his own family as well as himself.

    • Aaron Morrow

      Trump can’t afford to lose antisemitic AND fascist voters.

      • ExpatJK

        Wait, there’s some who aren’t both of those things??

        • farin

          I’m sure he got a strong majority of the American Kahanist vote.

          • ExpatJK

            Fair point. Though kahanists generally despise most other Jews, so there’s some overlap.

            • Manny Kant

              Plenty of anti-Semites who aren’t Fascist, I’d think. On both left and right.

              • ExpatJK

                That’s true. I would guess that a lot of fascists are anti-Semitic though.

            • Kahanists think most other Jews are self-hating, in other words anti-semitic, so it’s complicated. (There’s a joke that anyone who thinks someone else is self-hating is an antisemite, but I can’t get the wording right so it’s funny.)

              • (((realinterrobang)))

                Funnily enough, while I was offline on Saturday, I dug into the books I haven’t seen in months and decided I was going to reread _Never Again_, which is one of my collection of historically influential books (I also own _The SCUM Manifesto_ and a bunch of other things.). Coincidentally, that was a bad choice. Right now, Kahane’s looking like a prophet, and that’s a bad thing.

    • brad

      Oh, he does.
      Just not in ways we’d like, not in public.

  • rhino

    In any fight between nazis and anti nazis, there are clear good guys and bad guys.

    I literally don’t care if the antifa movement is burning nazis alive for S’more fuel. Because nazis.

    • NeonTrotsky

      Yeah I’ve been pretty critical of antifa in the past, but when the other side starts plowing down peaceful protestors and the police just sort of stand there, self defense seems pretty damn justified.

    • Drew

      Extremism in fighting Nazis is no vice.

  • Unemployed_Northeastern

    ” “Not Donald Trump. Not Barack Obama. It’s been going on for a long, long time.” Anybody want to take a crack at translating the last three sentences from Trumpspeak into English?”

    I’ll take a stab at it.

    1) NOT MY FAULT. ALSO TRUMP THAT’S MY NAME: TRUMP. DID YOU KNOW I IS PRECEDENT AND A BULLIONAIRE? TRUMP.

    2) Obvious dogwhistle to his base who froths at the mention of Obama’s name and will naturally blame this on 44 because reasons.

    3) “Did you know that before there were H2B visas available to exploit low-skill foreign workers like I do at my hotels and vineyards, bigly business owners used to use slaves as employees? It was strong stuff or whatever. That’s back before regulations killed the free market. MAGA”

    • randykhan

      I think the entire translation really is “It’s not my fault,” which following the inversion principle of Trumpspeak, means that, of course, it is his fault.

      • BiloSagdiyev

        No single Nazi raindrop believes it is responsible for the riot.

    • BiloSagdiyev

      “That Obama, he’s so divisive. We didn’t used to have all of these racial problems until he showed up and made those people get all uppity.”

      • Hogan

        Saw on Twitter that this is all the fault of BLM and antifa. Which, you know, just sprang up out of nowhere for no reason.

  • Trump cannot denounce the Nazis without seriously damaging support for both his presidency and the Republican Party. The GOP is the party of White nationalists, segregationist, bigots, misogynists, and every other social troglodyte still slithering along the American landscape.

    • D. C. Sessions

      Have a peek at Paul Ryan’s twitter. He tried to mealymouth and unlike Trump isn’t cutting off everyone who disagrees with him.

      Shorter: It bought you, Dude, so now you own it.

  • Unemployed_Northeastern

    OT: Charlotte Law’s state license got yanked two days ago.

  • NeonTrotsky

    Also, lets not forget all the republican legislatures that have literally been trying to make it legal to run protestors over in vehicles

  • That was absolutely fucking pathetic. I’m so angry right now I can barely think.

    Just to keep my sanity I have to joke:

    “Today, Donald Trump became president.”.

    • Bizarro Mike

      Today Donald Trump awoke to discover that he had been transformed into a giant cockroach.

      (It would be an improvement.)

    • aab84

      This isn’t even good strategy! The media is, to a person, beyond appalled, and will hammer him on this for days. And while his deplorable base will love this, most Republicans don’t want to be associated with literal Nazis. That’s why they say the quiet part quiet! If you’re gonna play this game, you condemn the Nazis by name, then condemn antifa. This is literally the easiest possible statement to handle, even if you want to be evil with it. And they completely fucking failed because the entire administration is just three children standing on each other’s shoulders and wearing a trenchcoat, pretending to be an adult.

      • There were fucking swastika flags for Christ’s sake! This isn’t hard!

        • ExpatJK

          “But but those flags are just a misunderstood Buddhist symbol” – would this be too stupid for even the dumbest pundit/Cillizza?

        • Joe_Bob_the_III

          I wonder what it feels like to be Jared Kushner today. Your own father-in-law can’t bring himself to make a clear statement against actual fucking Nazis. I almost feel sorry for the little prick.

          • ExpatJK

            I don’t. He willingly and knowingly shames his grandparents, who actually fucking fought the Nazis as partisans and escaped the ghettoes in Belarus. Fuck him, he’s truly a shanda fur die goyim.

          • D. C. Sessions

            He’s keeping his side of the bargain. Was it worth it?

            There’s a reason there are so many stories about people who sell their sould and what comes of it.

          • Drew

            If today is the day that Kushner realized his father in law is an awful bigot, then he’s dumber than dogshit.

            • farin

              The consequent of that statement has never, in the past 30-odd years, been in any doubt.

          • Hypersphericalcow

            But it’s the Sabbath, so he and Ivanka are completely offline. He won’t find out about it until later tonight.

            One might suspect that these two things are related. “I mean, don’t know. Maybe. We’re looking into it.”

            • psychobroad

              Yeah, the idea that those two are religious is laughable. Pious, yes, religious, no.

              • D. C. Sessions

                Frum but not tzadek

                • psychobroad

                  Take it that means style not substance–Google translate Hebrew and Yiddish had nothing!

                • D. C. Sessions

                  “Frum” means pious, and can mean observant. “Tzadek” means righteous, or specifically keeping the Commandments with or without appearances. It’s a pretty subtle distinction.

          • psychobroad

            Not me baby, he went in to this with his eyes wide open.

      • D. C. Sessions

        The media is, to a person, beyond appalled

        Well, with some notable exceptions. I’m sure you all know which.

        • farin

          “Person” is doing some work there.

      • Hogan

        the entire administration is just three children standing on each other’s shoulders and wearing a trenchcoat, pretending to be an adult.

        Beautiful. Just beautiful.

        • Sentient AI From The Future

          We deserve a thread composed entirely of metaphors like this for the administration, like Jezebel did with their pre-election coverage.

        • That explains why he fidgets like that when he talks.

      • Drew

        This is a vile slander on Vincent Adultman

      • Daniel

        the entire administration is just three children standing on each other’s shoulders

        I wish people would stop slandering children. I like kids.

        • ExpatJK

          It’s also incorrect. I have a toddler, and kids are fundamentally honest. This is not something that can be said of pretty much anybody in the administration.

        • (((realinterrobang)))

          I don’t, and I still think that’s a damnable libel on children. :D

    • farin

      “Today, Donald Trump became Reichskanzler.”

  • Bub, the cynical zombie

    Donald J. Trump is a liar, a con man, a racist boor, an ignorant, narcissistic asshole, a sexual predator, a hypocrite, a physical and moral coward and a foul, vaguely human shaped lump of ambulatory elephant smegma. With weird hair, and no dick.

    Other than that, he isn’t so bad…

    • D. C. Sessions

      Say what? Look, he has faults, too.

    • Sentient AI From The Future

      In other words, an ambulatory YouTube comment section

  • wjts

    To be Scrupulously Fair, it’s linguistically possible that “many sides” means both the Nazis and the Neo-Confederates along the lines of, “both kinds – country and Western”.

  • Unemployed_Northeastern
  • McAllen

    I mean, he’s Trump. Of course his statement’s going to be as cowardly and mealy-mouthed as possible. That’s who he is. He’s not going to suddenly turn into Obama.

  • Damon Poeter

    Cue Alex Jones calling Charlottesville a false flag operation in 3 … 2 … 1 …

  • brad

    I really, I hope, mean this without any antisemitism, but I think part of the media’s response is there’s just plain a lot more Jewish reporters than there are black or latinx. This is a face they know they can’t ignore.

    • ExpatJK

      Uh, no. For one, lots of the pundits are doing the “but why was he so vague? not helpful” thing, instead of overlooking what’s a fairly obvious dogwhistle. I am not sure what you mean by the “media’s response” here.

      Furthermore, I don’t think it has anything to do with Jewish reporters or not. Are most reporters talking about this Jewish? Why are you even going here with this?

      I would say that most people in the US know from whatever basic history they were taught that Nazis were bad, and importantly, Americans defeated them. This does not happen with the Confederacy. I would not be surprised if overwhelming majorities think “Nazis bad, Confederates possibly misunderstood” or something. So, regardless of reporter ethnicity, it wouldn’t be surprising to see more media reporting on Nazi activity rather than Klan or neo-Confederate activity.

      • Technocrat

        This is a great point. On the other hand, the Right sure did a 180 on Russia pretty quick. I’m not taking anything for granted.

    • Gator90

      “I don’t mean this in a racist way, but …”

      Sentences that start like that seldom end well.

      • humanoidpanda

        I’m not sure I agree with Brad re: journalists, but it is an observable fact that pretty much all remaining nevertrumpers are Jewish. There is no antisemitism in noting that yeah, Jewish people might have a bit more sensitivy to what is Trump peddling than others.

        • D. C. Sessions

          It’s just a matter of timing. There are still some people left alive with the tattoos on their arms. Another couple of generations and the new Dunning School would have had time to work its wonders.

        • Gator90

          That isn’t what Brad said, and I didn’t say his comment was antisemitic. Other than that, your reply is spot on.

          I do think that when it is necessary to preface a sentence with a denial of bigoted intent, the sentence should probably be reconsidered. Including when its theme is that news coverage is shaped by the alleged prevalence of Jewish reporters.

        • ExpatJK

          I don’t think most of those nevertrumpers (eg Rubin, Frum) are journalists, aren’t they mostly op-ed writers and (former) political consultants?

          And anyway, as Gator90 points out below, it is awkward to say the least to suggest that the media is treating this differently because of all the Jewish journalists.

          • brad

            That is not what I said and a very unfair gloss.

            • Gator90

              The words you used, in the order you arranged them, mean exactly what ExpatJK says they do. What else could “part of the media’s response is there’s just plain a lot more Jewish reporters” possibly mean?

              • brad

                It’s an industry where Jewish people are proportionally more common than in the country at large, so Nazis are going to strike home a bit more. It’s an existential threat, not just an old grudge. I’m not saying Jewish people in the media are in any way a problem, I’m saying it’s just something that is.

            • Gator90

              You had to know you’d get some flak. Jews, after all, are almost certainly over-represented in the LGM commentariat, and you know how they are.

            • ExpatJK

              I don’t think you were being antisemitic, but I do think it was awkwardly worded and as a result certainly open to a problematic interpretation. You don’t need to apologise.

              I am not sure that today would necessarily be a turning point. I suppose the march brings it home in a more visceral way, but Trump was endorsed by David Duke ages ago. I think people who are still “unsure” about Trump’s real base will probably just keep putting their fingers in their ears and yelling ‘lalala’

      • brad

        Thia is true. I took the hit because especially considering the things happening this very moment not so far away it’s worth being overabundantly clear that I mean nothing accusatory or conspiratorial. I’m not saying it to find any fault specifically or generally with any journalists. I just mean that especially considering the economic backgrounds of many in the media a bit of a bubble effect can be in place leading to blind spots for some, by no means all. But Nazis, as mentioned, are just too real in too many ways to ignore.

  • randykhan

    When even the Republican candidate for governor in Virginia has a better statement on what’s happening in Charlottesville than the President, he’s sunk pretty far.

    • Technocrat

      Ted Cruz had a better statement. How bad do you have to be to make Ted Cruz look good?

  • WaltWhitmanSampler

    “Loser fans of the losing side in WWII protest to protect the remaining hate kitsch of the losing side of the Civil War.” Got it.

  • Philip

    The rumor is that the murdered protestor was a Wobbly; I haven’t seen it confirmed, but it wouldn’t be surprising since I know a bunch of DSA people were in the crowd the Nazi attacked.

    • NicknotNick

      Do you mean a member of the IWW? Or is there an up-to-date meaning of ‘wobbly’?

      • Philip

        Yes, an IWW member.

      • I assume he means IWW member, yes. I have known some in the late 20th century.

        • humanoidpanda

          We give a lot of shit to the leftier than though/ anarchist types a lot of justified shit. But when shit comes to shove, these guys are willing to put their bodies on the line.

          • ExpatJK

            Cosigning this.

    • NeonTrotsky

      The DSA Facebook page seems to be implying this

  • Amadan

    Gosh, I wonder if the person crushed by a fascist driving at them in the same way that ISIS does it might not have been an angel.

    • BiloSagdiyev

      I heard he was frequently seen jaywalking and walking through parking lots on foot! So this is obviously some kind of thing with him!

  • Amadan

    “If I had a son – shuddup Uday and Qusay, Barron, go play with the cyber – if I had a son, he would have looked like the guy driving that car”

  • aab84

    I am furious with myself for being genuinely surprised at the depths to which this man is willing to sink.

    • WaltWhitmanSampler

      Many depths.

  • This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

    Oh I hope so. My patience is at an absolute end.

  • AMK

    I look forward to the Federalist essay on the wisdom of Hilter’s pro-growth tax policies

    Also RE the photo: It’s amazing that there wasn’t a more robust Nazi presence in the US in the 30s and 40s, particularly in the South.

    • humanoidpanda

      Never going to happen: Hitler was used Keynesian deficit spending to trigger growth, and therefore worse than a Nazi.

      • ExpatJK

        Yes, the TVA – to name one example – is evidence of the widespread anti-Keynesian sentiment in the South at that time…

    • humanoidpanda

      and re: the South: one of the things that really astounded me in Katznelson’s Fear itself is that Southerners were major proponents of agressively confronting Nazi Germany in the late 1930s. It was really a stopped clock thing..

      • farin

        Back in the good old days when ethnonationalism wasn’t an international, multiethnic movement.

    • Sebastian_Flyte

      Cf. the chapter in To Kill a Mockingbird in which Scout’s racist teacher passionately condemns the Nazis’ treatment of the Jews.

    • billcinsd

      Weren’t the best known Nazi-enablers big business people like Ford and Bush’s relatives, who weren’t well liked during the depression?

      • D. C. Sessions

        I don’t know of any social psychology on the whole phenomenon, but it wouldn’t surprise me that people who had plenty of nggrs to kick didn’t need (or have time to) add Jews to the list.

        • osceola

          I once attended a talk by a historian who wrote a bio of Gerald L.K. Smith, a semi-fascist American of the Depression era. This historian (Jeansonne? I forget.) said you’ve got to have a minority that’s big enough to be perceived as a threat, but not big enough to organize on election day, and you can’t pick a minority so demographically small no one perceives a threat. This is why no Louisiana demagogue ever ran an anti-Catholic campaign (too many, they’ll swamp you on election day), and no one in the South ever ran against Jews (statistically not threatening enough).

      • Spot Letton

        Interesting piece in the Daily Beast about 1930s sympathy for Hitler in the mainstream American press….
        http://www.thedailybeast.com/the-american-papers-that-praised-hitler

    • Unemployed_Northeastern

      The real Nazism is taxing our munificent corporations and plutocrats so as to fund a sparse safety net for everyone else.

      – The lede for a thousand conservative op-eds being written right now

    • Spot Letton

      The South of the the 1930s and 1940s didn’t need Nazis.

  • boy this has been a hard and terrible day. I am profoundly frightened that our country will unravel, will not hold.

  • Joe_Bob_the_III

    Find and watch the video of Trump making this statement. He’s clearly reading prepared remarks, right until he says “on many sides…” I think he ad-libbed that part and the sentences after it. Given the chance to make an unambiguous statement against racist violence – he chose to say something else.

    To look at it in crass political terms, events of the day teed things up quite nicely for the POTUS to make some high-minded statements about bad people. It would have been very Presidential, which would surely please Donald, and the remarks would be have been well-received. Instead, Trump chose not to even take a swing at a slow pitch thrown right down the center of the plate.

    I don’t know what one concludes from this other than that Trump shares the views of the Nazis, Confederate sympathizers, Klansmen and other assorted deplorables parading around Charlottesville the past two days. He doesn’t just pander to white supremacists for votes; he is one himself.

    • LosGatosCA

      Of course.,I thought this was well known by, say, year 2 of the birtherism.

      Just like his misogyny was well known by, say, his acquiescence to Stern caliing his daughter a sexual object.

      Just like his sexual aggression was well known when he admitted to visiting undressed underage girls in their pageant dressing room.

      He’s not some secret criminally minded racist bullying ignoramus grifter, he’s completely open and proud of every bad intent and worse character trait he has. That he won telling everyone exactly who he is and what he promised to do, is a stain on America, not a deceit by him.

      • Drew

        +1,000,000

    • Hogan

      Reminds me of Bobby Hill being thrown out of T-ball because he struck out looking.

    • SpiderDan

      “He doesn’t just pander to white supremacists for votes; he is one himself.”

      You’re ascribing an actual, static set of political values to him. I don’t think he has any. His only value is winning or losing, and he knows people identify him with white supremacists. Therefore, for him to unambiguously denounce the white supremacists means he is taking an L by association. He doesn’t like to lose, so he denounces… everyone? all the sides? …so as to distance himself from accountability.

      Notice the well-timed mention of Obama. This is also part of the attempt to distance himself: if you blame Trump, you also have to blame Obama, and so it’s not Trump’s fault.

  • randykhan

    It appears that the official right wing talking points on this are (1) Trump condemned white supremacists today; and (2) Obama never condemned Black Lives Matter violence.

    Just so everyone’s ready to respond.

  • Joe Paulson

    As was mentioned by various people, Trump is sure to single out people he calls out or calls “sad” so vague comments stand out. For instance:

    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/896504109670567936

    • farin

      wtf
      e: Oh, in an unrelated incident a police chopper crashed today. What an abject, irredeemable glob of waste Donald is.

      • BiloSagdiyev

        They were above the fray of fighting protestors, quite literally. The police on the ground who didn’t intervene, merely figuratively. Since when were protests allowed to turn into pepper spray fight club? The first I heard of the police just letting two groups they probably don’t like go at it was the Berkeley/Milo demonstrations. Is this a new thing?

  • “It’s been going on for a long time in our country,” Mr. Trump said of the hatred and bigotry in Charlottesville. “Not Donald Trump. Not Barack Obama. It’s been going on for a long, long time.”

    Yes, this has been going on for a long time. But right now the white supremacists and Nazi retreads feel particularly empowered. I wonder why.

  • brianm0122

    “Radical, Racist Facism”, if he would just say the words, it would all be over.

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