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On Hipster Hate

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Hipster-326202

If you want an academic discussion of hipsters and the problem of hipster hate, here’s one for you. Mostly it makes good points.

All jokes aside, there is a point to be made here. That is, while there are plenty of people who fit the above description, it’s a satirical construct, not a research demographic. It is perfectly acceptable for writers and scholars to deconstruct complex cultural notions of hipster semiotics and praxis, but I have serious concerns when I start seeing urban geographers, sociologists, and economists scapegoating and critiquing a media-constructed trope for gentrification, sexism, racism, and cultural appropriation. These are real issues that deserve ongoing critical research and policy development. Rather than talking about hipsters, we should look for the synergies in the research of people like Markus Moos (“generationed” space and “youthification”), Heather McLean (feminist critique of the creative city), Sarah Dooling (ecological gentrification), Phil Hubbard (“studentification”) and other scholars of the city. These academics are conducting sound demographic analysis, applying critical theory, and proposing meaningful policies. They are doing real research, but hey, maybe it is being dismissed as “too mainstream.”

In the end, denouncing hipsters as the source of all things wrong with Austin has become a lazy habit in this city, and we should think about the reasons we default to “die hipster scum” every time we see a bearded ukulele player on a fixie. When we do, we play into social media essentialization and pop-social commentary. At best, we add faux legitimacy to a modern day folk devil. At worst, we condescendingly make light of inequality, marginalization, and privilege in a city that all too frequently markets itself as a progressive utopia.

Which is a completely hipster thing to do.

It is pretty dumb for academics to actually take “hipster” seriously as a category of analysis, especially when it really means “people younger than me who do things I find weird.” On the other hand, while it’s hard for me to justify being annoyed by a bearded ukulele player on a fixie, I find him annoying nonetheless. Damn kids need to get off my lawn.

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  • Amanda in the South Bay

    Hipsters are mostly harmless, but I’ve noticed the pseudo working class flannel wearing persona adopted by quite a few Silicon Valley techies who are displacing actual working class people. *That* annoys me.

    • MaxUtility

      Thank god no one in my generation wore flannel or took on other “working class” markers to try to signal our authenticity and ability to see beyond the privilege of our upbringing. I’m glad hipsters invented that. (But sure – it is annoying.)

      • sam

        Seriously. Hipster certainly wasn’t a term that existed when I was my younger self, but if it had, my crowd of alterna-hippie-goth-punk-weirdly pierced coffeehouse* nerds would have probably fit the bill to a tee.

        *we were in Buffalo in the early/mid-90s – all the variations on ‘alternative’ hung out together because there weren’t enough of any particular group to reach critical mass.

        • TribalistMeathead

          Those poor goths, cursed to not be born in Tampa.

    • Crusty

      Flannel? Like Pearl Jam?

      • Bill Murray

        I think you mean like Husker Du

        • jim, some guy in iowa

          or CCR

      • nixnutz

        When I moved to S.F. in ’88 the girl who put up me and my friends had just spent a year at Evergreen (or was it Reed?) and she’d coined the word “hipneck” for the flannel and Carhartt crowd that I would only get to know a couple years later.

        In my day we wore our flannels around our waists, dammit.

    • Adam The K

      Like real “mostly harmless” or Hitchhiker’s Guide “mostly harmless”?!!

      • Amanda in the South Bay

        Considering I’ve never read the book or see the movie, the former?

      • Mostly harmless in the Hitchhiker’s Guide really does mean just “mostly harmless.” It’s just funnier. (The entry for earthling was changed in modern nuclear times, from “harmless” as it was thought back in caveman days.)

    • Brian

      To be fair, the only defining characteristic of ‘hipster’ is that nobody thinks they are one.

      • kped

        I don’t believe that. The guy with a full beard and a mustache that he spends 15 minutes carefully applying was too to get the right upwards turn on the ends, and who wears pants that he rolls up mid calf surely acknowledges he’s a hipster.

        Nothing wrong with that, but some of them just can’t even pretend they aren’t.

        I don’t blame hipsters for anything, they’re just people with a particular aesthetic style. I may find many of them insufferable, but that’s hardly a reason to hate them, or at least hate them any more than I hate most people (I’m kind of a hater…so there’s a baseline level I usually hold for everyone).

        • Brian

          I think he would only acknowledge it ironically.

    • Dennis Orphen

      Said it before, will say it again: Much like animal rights activists pour blood upon people wearing fur and leather, we should consider covering ‘lumbersexuals’ with dirt, grease, pine tar and sawdust. Just for laughs, of course.

      • Bruce B.

        Why?

        It’s this kind of reaction that really shocked me into active antipathy toward hipster hate. And it very vividly reminds me of being on the receiving end of bullying as a child.

        • eh

          Subcultures necessarily exist in opposition to a mainstream, so that tells you something about those who feel antagonistic toward people in the cultural margins: they’re squares.

    • JL

      Odd, I mostly associate flannel these days with urban queer women and nonbinary people.

      • tsam

        Well, ’round these parts, it’s associated with being dirty, NASCAR hats, and those giant plastic coffee cups from the gas station.

    • DrDick

      Agreed. I do find them a bit pretentious and precious, but I more than suspect a lot of folks said the same about me, in my hippie stage, when I was their age. Mostly I just quietly smile and occasionally giggle, reflecting back on my own youth (says the straight old white man with pierced ears).

      • eh

        You can ignore 99% of people who say that any element of appearance is “pretentious.” Typically it’s just a complaint that the complainer wouldn’t make themselves look that way.

  • Denverite

    My spouse drove me into work today. We played a game called “homeless person or hipster?”. She won.

    • TribalistMeathead

      Oh, how fucking whimsical of the two of you.

    • dl

      how did you know who won? did you stop the car and ask each person?

      • Denverite

        Further observation.

    • Dennis Orphen

      Homeless people wear baseball caps, ride bicycles and need a shave. Dennis O. wears a baseball cap, rides a bike and needs a shave. Therefore Dennis O. is a homeless person.

      My life since leaving Portland OR for rural CA in one sentence.

  • Right. Scapegoating and critiquing should only be directed people who aren’t young, attractive, talented, rich, and morally earnest (and heavily represented in the community of professional opinion-makers). I mean, seriously.

    “While We’re Young” was pretty good (especially if you like Baumbach, which I do).

    • Origami Isopod

      Right. Scapegoating and critiquing should only be directed people who aren’t young, attractive, talented, rich, and morally earnest (and heavily represented in the community of professional opinion-makers). I mean, seriously.

      Snicker. Yep.

    • Snuff curry

      “Talented” and “morally earnest” certainly shouldn’t be applied to every Mast Brother and Sister, mostly because it’s become the uniform for a certain kind of fraud, but seriously.

  • njorl

    On the other hand, while it’s hard for me to justify being annoyed by a bearded ukulele player on a fixie, I find him annoying nonetheless.

    We choose to do these things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard

    • thebewilderness

      I don’t know what a fixie is but if I saw the d00d in the picture playing a uke at the pike street market I would guess that he was a laid off logger and look at the pantlegs to confirm. If they were intact I would guess a grunge aficionado. I can only conclude that hipster means something entirely different here in the Puget Sound area from what it does in Austen.

      • DrS

        It is a ‘ten speed’ style bike but without shiftable gears, i.e., a ‘fixed gear’ bike.

        Amazingly enough, some people ride these things in San Francisco. Those are the real people who have calves the size of cantaloupes.

        • thebewilderness

          Thank you!

        • Michael Cain

          Some people manage to do Colorado’s “Ride the Rockies” on fixies. Easy days on the route will have 3,000 feet of climbing; hard days have over 7,000 feet.

      • eh

        Do you have any cultural reference points younger than 25 years?

  • Thirtyish

    I reject hipster hate because, to me, it comes from the same set of assumptions that have spawned hatred of hippies, “beatniks,” bohemians, and other such people before them–basically, the fear and hatred toward any deviation from societal conformity (especially with regards to young people who are not following the timeline of the collective script with regards to marriage and childbearing), and it shares a lot in common with suspicion of cosmopolitanism and The City.

    • I feel like we need some DFW quotes here.

    • solidcitizen

      Hmmm…I guess I can’t speak to beatniks and bohemians, but hippies have always brought a “I’m better than you” vibe to the the deviation from social conformity that I do not get from hipsters.

      With hippies there is a strong notion that anyone who does not tune in, turn on, and drop out is a sell-out who is living a sad life of conformity. That anyone who was turned on would be living the hippie lifestyle, rejecting material things, communing with nature, smoking grass, and just being, man.

      I don’t get that from hipsters. In fact, I get a much more inclusive vibe. The bearded ukulele player on the fixie doesn’t really care what do, although he’d probably be happy to listen to you tell him about it, if you want to listen to him talk about his bike. He’ll pickle the hell out of some cherry tomatoes, you buy a car, it’s all good.

      I guess this is just a long way of saying hippie hate is well justified. (Actually hippies, not “hippies as leftists” as in hippie-punching.)

      • Origami Isopod

        It really depends on the hippie. There are some who are as mellow and laid-back as their reputation has it; there are others who are just as you describe.

        • gusmpls

          Some hippies are, indeed, self-righteous. What makes it more infuriating to so many is how often they’re right. Who popularized environmentalism and organic food, who was against the war in Vietnam? What I like about hippies over hipsters is at least hippies took a countercultural stand. Today’s hipsterism is largely a series of fashion statements.

          • Thirtyish

            What I like about hippies over hipsters is at least hippies took a countercultural stand. Today’s hipsterism is largely a series of fashion statements.

            The thing is, your statement about today’s hipsters is also what a lot of the usual suspects complained about with yesterday’s hippies*. So much of the griping centered around young men who wore their hair long or going without shoes.

            *I wasn’t there, but I’ve read up.

      • Thirtyish

        I’ve always gotten the opposite impression. The hippies who “tune in and drop out” don’t really give a fuck what you do, whereas I’ve encountered some truly holier-than-thou hipsters in my time. I’ll take either over someone who thinks that getting married, moving to the ‘burbs, and popping them out is mandatory and everyone’s highest life mission, though.

      • asifis

        Rejecting excess material things would go a ways toward helping the environment, if not the economy. And I don’t see the problem with communing with nature, smoking grass or just being. Your hippie hate could be guilt or shame.
        I comment to avoid dealing with the mountains of stuff making it hard for me to function. I wish I could live down to my hippie ideals.

      • njorl

        I distrust people who don’t attempt to claim that they’re better than me. Am I not worth claiming to be better than or something? Well to hell with you!

      • eh

        hippies have always brought a “I’m better than you” vibe to the the deviation from social conformity that I do not get from hipsters.

        How many times is “always?” What do you think you did to earn their attention and, apparently, ire?

    • Mac the Knife

      The entire hatred for them is strange – I mean, even the word “hipster” predates whatever youth subcultures the people using it to denigrate the current generation of young people grew up in. You’d think anyone who was ever young and thought of themselves as cool within the last 60 years would think twice.

      Another thought – it seems like “hipster” and its attendant trappings have lasted an awfully long time as the default culture for youth who are the least bit non-conforming. Am I wrong, or have beards and good coffee outlasted bell bottoms and white kids listening to bebop by quite a bit at this point?

      • AcademicLurker

        “Hipster” seems to have replaced “slacker” sometime around 2000 (just about when the earliest millennials were in college), although many of the characteristic features carried over.

        You’re right that the hipster stereotype has lasted and remained relatively stable for a remarkably long time, as stereotyped youth cultures go.

      • eh

        The word itself doesn’t matter. Squares have always labeled outsiders, it’s a form of othering.

    • searcher

      My problem with both hipsters and hipster hate is that if I’m a midwesterner living in exile in Brooklyn, wearing the flannel stylings of my youth, drinking the beer of my father [PBR], and sporting traditional midwestern stylings [Ambrose Burnside was a Hoosier, doncha know], suddenly I am being derided not as the midwestern hick I am but as a “hipster”.

    • nixnutz

      What I would say is that I have a lot of respect for genuine freaks and oddballs but the notion of “hipster” implies a corruption of non-conformity, “hip” only exists in relation to a community who judges which things are in or out. Back in the 40s and 50s, and for some time afterwards, this represented a genuine counterculture but it’s now nothing but a consumer choice which is not incompatible in any meaningful way with the dominant culture’s values.

      Now that critique has its own problems but it’s quite different from what you propose, and is also basically the same (get off my lawn?) attitude that was implicit in beatniks’ use of “hippie” back in the 60s.

      • eh

        So you’re saying it’s been commodified? Let me introduce you to Hot Topic and any number of Action Sports retailers.

    • Dennis Orphen

      + whatever the unicode for infinity is (which I’m not going to look up right now).

  • DilbertSucks

    The people who complain the most about hipsters tend to be hipsters themselves. I’ve always seen it as an extension of middle class self-hatred/self-deprecation, a la “Stuff White People Like.”

    • AcademicLurker

      I remain puzzled by the pearl clutching that SWPL inspired. Random dude makes a web page poking light hearted fun at his demographic: ZOMG!!!!

      • Ronan

        Afaict, the problem is it’s reverse racism. Make of that what you will.

    • NonyNony

      IME the people who hate hipsters the most fall into two camps:

      Young people who aren’t hipsters themselves but have friends or acquaintances who are, and older people in my own Gen X age group.

      I suspect people in my age group mostly hate them because they remind us that we’re now old and that we’re no longer the group doing things that annoy our elders. In fact now our elders are moving in with us and talking about getting tattoos and that’s also bizarrely making us feel old.

      (I don’t hate hipsters. I’m amused that they must spend hours grooming their beards to get them to look like they’re heading out to do some Sherlock Holmes cosplay. But I figure that one of the perks of being old is that I get to be amused by the affectations of the “kids these days”…)

      • Denverite

        ding ding ding

      • As I understand it, “hipster” is kind of code word for what used to be the white suburban types who liked to hang out in jazz clubs and pretend to be “down.” Now they live in the city, but I imagine that if you’re an artist or musician and you’d really rather they went back on the MetroNorth at 5 AM, you’d be annoyed.

        I don’t hate hipsters (I don’t know any hipsters), but I think it’s perfectly reasonable to make a distinction between, say, artists living in a cheap district, and rich people wandering in and out of galleries and buying stuff, or going Martha Stewart.

        • eh

          As I understand it, “hipster” is kind of code word for what used to be the white suburban types who liked to hang out in jazz clubs and pretend to be “down.”

          I love this construction. Hearsay presuming to identify when other people are “pretending.” On what side of the line are/were Nat Hentoff and Clement Greenberg?

          Walter Benjamin is here, he’s just not very evenly distributed.

      • DilbertSucks

        Just my opinion, but tattoos are by far the worst fashion trend of the past 50 years, if not longer. The previous poor fashion choices had the mitigating factor of being easily reversible, usually just requiring a trip to the barber or a new wardrobe. Tattoos are permanent without expensive surgery and scars. I will never understand the appeal.

        • NonyNony

          To put on the pop sociology/psychology hat – I suspect that the permanence might just be part of the appeal. Because when no other choice and no other part of your life feels permanent, maybe there’s something comforting about there being something in your life that promises to be there forever.

        • As a generic white guy who looks like someone asked for a nerd from central casting, I totally see the appeal. I’ve avoided them them because I imagine some few lines on a form somewhere “identifying marks, scars or tattoos” and I want that to say “none”. Since I’ve had a few knee surgeries, that’s no longer the case and I probably should get that steampunk jetpack tattoo I’ve been daydreaming about for a decade. I’m never going to be James Bond, if I’m ever a fugitive, I’m already boned, so I no longer see the point in staying ink-free.

        • DrS

          I’ve seen some people who really wear them well and who have some amazing artistry to their tats, so I can understand some of the appeal.

          But I can’t commit to a bumper sticker, so no tattoo for me.

        • Thirtyish

          Tattoos are permanent without expensive surgery and scars. I will never understand the appeal.

          I’m sure you don’t. On the other hand, you also recently let us know–in a thread about the many ways that women are body-shamed–how little you care for the “natural body” when it happens to have fat, so you’ll understand if I take your aesthetic opinions with a grain of salt . I also say this as someone with a permanent tattoo that I’m sure will horrify you.

          • Denverite

            with a permanent tattoo that I’m sure will horrify you.

            Is it an image of Ted Cruz naked?

            • Thirtyish

              No, that would horrify even me.

              • The Temporary Name

                December 24th shopping list on the inside forearm?

                • Thirtyish

                  Inside forearm? I may be many things, but I’m not a masochist. (Outside forearm’s fine and dandy, and where mine is placed.)

                • The Temporary Name

                  Tattoo of inside forearm on outside forearm?

                • BigHank53

                  Tattoo of forearm insides on outside of forearm. I was too squeamish for the surgical inspection, so we just used a picture of somebody else’s forearm with the skin off.

                • rhino

                  If you’re trying to say that the inside of the forearm is an incredibly painful place to tattoo, I can assure you it isn’t. It was the least painful of my tattoos.

          • DilbertSucks

            On the other hand, you also recently let us know–in a thread about the many ways that women are body-shamed–how little you care for the “natural body” when it happens to have fat, so you’ll understand if I take your aesthetic opinions with a grain of salt .

            If you’re fat and tattooed, then no, I won’t care about your opinion on aesthetics either, so the feeling’s mutual and nothing of value is lost. “The trauma of fat people” is pretty much the definition of a “First World problem.” Completely trivial and a distraction. There’s absolutely nothing morally wrong with finding overweight and overly tattooed people unattractive. I’m impervious to these guilt games.

            If you’re truly confident in your fashion choices, then you shouldn’t need or seek my validation anyway.

            • delazeur

              If you’re fat and tattooed, then no, I won’t care about your opinion on aesthetics

              Didn’t anyone ever tell you that it’s now the 21st century and you have to be dicreet about your chauvinism?

              As someone who would never get a tattoo, I can’t imagine why you would feel the need to judge people who have them.

              • ChrisTS

                I have mixed feelings/thoughts about this. There are people I find genuinely unattractive; am I to never acknowledge that? I wouldn’t say mean things to them, but I might say mean things about them in private.

                Example: neck beards. I just find that look awful. Is that chauvinistic?

                • tsam

                  Example: neck beards. I just find that look awful. Is that chauvinistic?

                  No.

                  Look, there are things people choose to do to themselves (or not do in the case of grooming). Opinions you have about them are ok to say–though saying that having a tattoo means you’re stupid is pretty stupid…

                  It’s really wrong to pick on someone for things they can’t choose or change.

                  I mean–I think anybody who speaks with a southern accent sounds like an idiot fucking toolbag. I say that with a clear conscience. But it’s a different thing to say they SOUND stupid and to say they ARE stupid.

                • Thirtyish

                  There are people I find genuinely unattractive; am I to never acknowledge that?

                  As always, context matters. There are a lot of opinions I have that I would not necessarily broadcast to just anyone, at any time. And it also matters how one announces their preferences–anything that smacks of arrogance and absolutism is going to put me off, personally.

                • delazeur

                  It’s one thing to say that you aren’t attracted to tattoos or neckbeards, either in the sexual sense or the nonsexual aesthetic sense. It’s another thing to say that someone else’s opinions on aesthetics are invalid because they have tattoos or a neckbeard.

        • The Temporary Name

          One of my favourite hipster things is a premature end to the tattoo phase accomplished by, you know, running out of space when you’re 23.

          • postmodulator

            A young lady of my acquaintance recently shaved the side of her head so that she could immediately tattoo it, her canvas being otherwise full.

          • Dennis Orphen

            There’s always the ‘bacon strip’, or as our friends across the puddle in Old Blighty call it, ‘the taint’ (cuz it ain’t yer arse and it ain’t yer fanny).

        • Dennis Orphen

          Packaged rebellion. Also, confusing the map with the territory.

      • Now that pretty much everybody has a tattoo, my total lack of them makes me the edgy rebel.

        Ha! Take that conformist hipsters!

        • The Temporary Name

          I’m fairly certain my unblemished skin* just makes me a chicken.

          *not counting various disgusting blemishes

          • ColBatGuano

            No one has to know your reasons.

        • I’m holding out for LCD tattoos. What’s the point of a static image when I could have a movie playing under my skin 24/7?

          • N__B

            I want invisible-ink tattoos. All the pain, none of the visibility!

        • Moondog

          I’m still very impressed by people who get face tattoos — especially the forehead — and neck tattoos.

    • CP

      Yeah, this. I wasn’t even aware of the generational thing Loomis brings up – the hipster-haters I know are all fellow millennials (I don’t think my parents even know the word). And it seems to be an incredibly vague and fuzzy term that might have a few characteristics attached to it but overall adds up mostly to “person I don’t like.”

      • Spiny

        Yeah, I hate on hipsters knowing full well if I was in a millennial lineup, I’d probably be fingered as one. Self-deprecation is how we signal we’re not that kind of hipster. Which is obnoxious, I know.

        • I think if the linked article has a point, it’s that the critique is actually that kind of self-deprecation. It’s a kind of exoticism. It sometimes feels like what’s said to the writer is something like, “we’re not that interested in you or your generation as people, but would you write up some stuff about your weirdest friends, so we can feel superior?” (Probably a DFW essay on this subject too.)

          • Anna in PDX

            Gosh I am now sad all over again that there will be no new DFW essays.

          • Spiny

            Yes, that sounds right. Articles about millennial consumer choices, even if they are written by millennials, always seem to carry a note of “Christ these dumb hipsters love distressed wood and Edison lights so much you’d think they were cosplaying Bonanza wtf we’re in the 21st century you don’t need artisanal suspenders”.

            And I get it. Sometimes you see a guy wearing glasses frames with no lenses and you want to poke him. But it’s really not that big a deal.

            • sam

              As noted in a much earlier comment, I probably would have been described as a hipster in my younger days if the word existed back then, so I try not to get too worked up about them.

              But I do find guy at the incredibly hipster coffee joint I now go to in the morning, who wears a baseball hat that has built-in cat ears, to be too twee for words. But they have really good coffee, so I will not actually say anything or stop going.

              And I say this as someone who, for a period of time in college, wore a propeller beanie on a regular basis, until my parents’ dog demolished it.

              • Thirtyish

                And I say this as someone who, for a period of time in college, wore a propeller beanie on a regular basis, until my parents’ dog demolished it.

                That’s awesome. I hope you told anyone who questioned it that it was your preferred mode of transportation.

              • Dennis Orphen

                Did you see your parents dog demolish it or did they tell you that?

                • sam

                  Oh, it was the dog. The dog was notorious for destroying everything. He chewed up my glasses one thanksgiving. That was fun. There was no way my parents could imitate that level of mangling.

                  Plus, silly expressions of personality through clothing didn’t bother my ex-hippie/artist parents. The only thing that would have bugged them was something permanent like a tattoo, but that was because of lingering religious sentiment from their Jewish upbringings. And they even got over that when my younger brother started turning up with them.

            • ColBatGuano

              Always remember: Hating on the 18-29 year old cohort is a time honored tradition.

            • Snuff curry

              Christ these dumb hipsters love distressed wood and Edison lights so much you’d think they were cosplaying Bonanza wtf we’re in the 21st century you don’t need artisanal suspenders

              It also just seems like an exhausting, finicky existence plagued not by actual ethical quagmires but by whether or not you’re ruining the authenticity because you’re not winnowing and hulling your own grains. Getting lost in the pretty, time-consuming details in order to avoid and insulate yourself from more complex modern dilemmas where the stakes are real. Also, the gender essentialism and the white supremacy, which aren’t always at the forefront but linger in the background of a lot of old-timey wankery hankering for olden things, cf steampunk Victoriana; the careful excising of black influences from rock’n’roll by metal dudes who think they belong to an uninterrupted and pure classical line; wealthy pre-Raphaelites boys’ preoccupation with pubes ‘n’ apolitical Luddism divorced from labor issues, et al.

              • The Temporary Name

                I don’t have the mental space, time or money for the attention to the finicky consumption, so I kinda think their consumption patterns are more defensible than mine, even when a delusion is involved on either of our parts. More power to them if they have the resources to support the smaller providers who make life interesting.

                • Snuff curry

                  Life’s always interesting for gentrifiers and when it’s not they take up with underworld spies or summat, I’ve heard tell, and no doubt they take comfort in equating “handmade” with ethically-sourced and “artisanal” with the training and protection offered by a guild, even when it’s obvious neither can be true. After all, it takes a lot of dough to hire “small businesses” to make your waste for you so you can proclaim your off-the-gridness purity.

  • DilbertSucks

    Speaking of the middle class, the following words could only have been said by people who’ve only known comfort and security for most of their lives and have had their brains warped by mass media consumption:

    Polls show that an increasing number of Sanders supporters say they will not vote for Mrs. Clinton in November’s general election. It’s a position not unlike that held by many of her supporters in 2008 before they eventually rallied around Barack Obama. And while Mr. Sanders has said he will do all he can to defeat Donald J. Trump, the level of vitriol for Mrs. Clinton coursing through Mr. Sanders’s audiences lately — where “Bernie or Bust” signs are commonplace and the mention of his rival prompts boos or shouts of insults like “corporate puppet” — suggests that party unity might be even more difficult to achieve this time.

    Ms. Peters, who makes a living selling goods online, said that she would not vote for Mrs. Clinton under any circumstance — and that she would blame the Democratic Party for a Trump victory in November.

    “If the D.N.C. wants to go ahead and put out the candidate who can’t win and we lose in November, it’s not because I didn’t vote,” she said. “It’s because they were looking out for their interests and not for the better interests of the country.”

    Victor Vizcarra, 48, of Los Angeles, said he would much prefer Mr. Trump to Mrs. Clinton. Though he said he disagreed with some of Mr. Trump’s policies, Mr. Vizcarra said he had watched “The Apprentice” and expected that a Trump presidency would be more exciting than a “boring” Clinton administration.

    “A dark side of me wants to see what happens if Trump is in,” said Mr. Vizcarra, who works in information technology. “There is going to be some kind of change, and even if it’s like a Nazi-type change. People are so drama-filled. They want to see stuff like that happen. It’s like reality TV. You don’t want to just see everybody be happy with each other. You want to see someone fighting somebody.”

    Jackie Becerra, 28, an executive assistant who lives in Lake Forest, also said she was leaning toward voting for Mr. Trump if Mr. Sanders was not the Democratic nominee. She said that she doubted Mr. Trump would keep his promise to build a wall along the border with Mexico, and that, even though his proposal to bar foreign Muslims from entering the United States made her “nervous,” she did not believe he could stop people from coming into the country based on their religion.

    “Everyone is like: ‘Trump has these terrible social issues. He hates Muslims and he hates the L.G.B.T. community,’ ” she said. “But our world is big enough that he’s not actually going to implement any of those changes in a realistic way. But what he will do is potentially audit the federal government, and he will try to break up some of the banks and try to at least influence government that way. However, with Hillary, it will just be a complacent, run-of-the-middle-of-the-road presidency.”

    http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/05/28/us/politics/bernie-sanders-hillary-clinton-fbi.html

    If I were a rational Bernie holdout, I would feel embarrassed by any association with these people.

    There really should be a punishment for being this stupid.

    • Philip

      I’ve started just replying with links to articles about the presidency of a certain George W Bush and then ignoring the thread.

    • CP

      “A dark side of me wants to see what happens if Trump is in,” said Mr. Vizcarra, who works in information technology.

      Yes. A very, very, very dark side. Shit-for-brains.

      • NonyNony

        He’s 48 years old and apparently learned nothing from the presidency of George W Bush.

        That’s kind of impressive in its awfulness.

      • Randy

        Because after we see what happens, we can just all decide to stop it and get a another President, right? Don’t we get do-overs in electoral politics?

        • ColBatGuano

          What’s the trade in value on a President? Do we just get store credit or do they hand over the cash value?

        • Moondog

          Just change the channel.

      • DocAmazing

        an executive assistant who lives in Lake Forest, also said she was leaning toward voting for Mr. Trump

        said Mr. Vizcarra, who works in information technology

        Now there’s a surprise.

    • People with the last names Vizcarra and Becerra probably shouldn’t be so goddamn complacent and trusting. When a white supremacist says he wants to deport every undocumented resident, the smart money would be on every Hispanic person in the country getting thrown out or shot, regardless of actual citizenship.

      • jim, some guy in iowa

        the leap of (something) taken to go from fierce advocate of Bernie Sanders to passive acceptance of Donald Trump is just weird. If I were Bernie Sanders, and I read those quotes, I’d be horribly depressed because they mean on some level I *haven’t* gotten through

        • DilbertSucks

          I want to ask Miss Becerra how Trump “will try to break up some of the banks.” He’s never proposed a single policy which would do that or even stated it as a goal of his. If ever there were proof that someone was talking out of her ass…

          It’s really hard to not hold this level of ignorance in contempt.

        • We expect nihilism from conservatives. It’s depressing to see it present in people who are actually supposed to care about their fellow citizens.

          • tsam

            If they cared, they wouldn’t act that way. Calling yourself a liberal and being a liberal are two very different things. Part of the appeal of Sanders was that he wasn’t a well known name, and his economic justice message was easily proven to be something that far pre-dated his presidential run.

            The problem is that many of the people who decided he was just the bomb diggity are dumb bastards who should probably not use sharp knives, let alone talk about politics.

          • so-in-so

            I wonder if they would have identified as conservative/supported the GOP in an earlier era, before it became sort of an embarrassment.

            • tsam

              I’ll bet some of them did.

        • tsam

          Nah–I would never blame myself for someone else acting like a crazy bastard. It’s not Bernie’s fault that his dead-ender fans are dumber than shit. It’s also not his fault that the Ron/Rand worshipper types stuck to him like gross little leaches.

          • Thirtyish

            But it is his fault when he continually plays off of them and feeds into batshit stupid conspiracy theories. Bernie’s not blameless.

            • tsam

              He sure has lately–I don’t feel like he used to until recently. But they came along after he got into the race, and now they’re nothing but a boat anchor tied around his neck. He’s passed on way too many opportunities to throw them overboard.

        • NonyNony

          the leap of (something) taken to go from fierce advocate of Bernie Sanders to passive acceptance of Donald Trump is just weird.

          Not really. It appears to be around 27% of Sanders supporters if polls are to be believed (something like 70% of Sanders supporters say they’ll vote for Clinton in the general if she’s the nominee). That’s crazification factor levels – I’m not surprised at all that in a population the size of Sanders supporters 27% of them might be nuts.

          And to put it another way – not all Sanders supporters are liberals. They have a variety of reasons for voting for Sanders. As I’ve said – one of my acquaintances is a big Sanders supporter this year who will be voting Libertarian if Clinton is the nominee. But he voted Ron Paul last time around and was disappointed that Rand Paul turned out to be “just another Republican tool”. So he’s not voting for Sanders because of Sanders stated policy goals, he’s voting for Sanders because Sanders is “not a typical politician” and his voting record is all about that.

          • jim, some guy in iowa

            sure- they aren’t really representative of anything other than their own particular- quirks, to be charitable

          • erick

            The rule of 27% never fails

        • I don’t get the support for Trump among some Sanders supporters.

          “If I can’t have the guy who’s to the left of Hillary I guess I’ll take the full blown Fascist”

          Just doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.

          • wjts

            I have been assured by commenters on this very site that Trump will at least keep us out of any wars, unlike a certain history’s blood-thirstiest warmonger.

      • Dennis Orphen

        The shooting part sounds like the kind of dirty, thankless job that should either be hired out to undocumented immigrants or outsourced offshore in it’s entirety. Ok, maybe interns, temps or H-1B workers.

    • sharculese

      Oh cool, it’s the same dumb arguments Ron Paul supporters were making in 2008.

    • Rob in CT

      It’ll be a new, exciting, SHINY shit sandwich.

      Nutpicking, of course, but there are so many nuts to pick.

      I was reading a TBogg article and of course Tbogg being Tbogg he wasn’t all that diplomatic, but he was keying off a very diplomatic attempt by Robert Reich to reel in some BoBers and… man, some of the comments are exactly like the people quoted in that article.

      I did come across this gem, though:

      I know you guys think everyone needs to unzip and compare the size of our liberalness…

      • Anna in PDX

        He keeps me sane. Off to find his article to cheer myself up.

        • Rob in CT

          That line I loved was actually in the comments. The TBogg post was pretty much mailed in.

  • Crusty

    “people younger than me who do things I find weird.”

    This is as good a definition of hipster as there is. Alternatively, I’ve also used hipster- someone who likes different things than you like, or also, someone who has moved into your neighborhood and who, by definition, did not previously live in your neighborhood and who looks a little different than you.

  • Anna in PDX

    I live in a hipster capital, and I guess I think a lot of the hipster hate in my city is really financial anxiety on the part of the locals who are seeing the cost of living, particularly housing, go completely out of our reach and then lash out at the thousands of new residents who are apparently contributing to that. The critiques of clothes and tattoos and stuff are just a distraction or a just so story.

    • Origami Isopod

      Yeah…. anxiety over gentrification fuels most hipster hate IMO.

      • AMK

        What’s the difference between a “hipster” and a “hippie?” A trust fund. The hate comes from the obvious authenticity gap that comes with choosing to wear rags while your parents buy you a luxury apartment.

        • Anna in PDX

          Yes, it is not a coincidence that the term “trustafarian” is very popular here. (Coined by Chuck Pahlaniuk, who lives here and looks like a “hipster” himself.)

        • ColBatGuano

          The hate comes from the obvious authenticity gap that comes with choosing to wear rags while your parents buy you a luxury apartment.

          How many “hipsters” do you imagine fall into this category?

          • AMK

            Well just about all the millennial hipsters I know are variations on this theme (and I know quite a few).

            I don’t think the hatred is hard to understand. People get mad when, say, traditional Native American dress “inspires” catwalk fashion, because it trivializes native culture and uses the past and present suffering of native people as a commercial aesthetic. Fair enough. But “hipster” culture does exactly the same thing on a much larger scale by appropriating the trappings of working class poverty to sell expensive clothes, beers, shoes etc to rich kids.

    • DocAmazing

      We have a winner. I have no problem with hipsters as such; they don’t even register, and if they’re actually riding fixies, they’re not adding to our insane automotive problem. I do have a problem with the children of orthodontists displacing Guatemalan refugee families and with artisanal cupcake shops pushing out panaderias.

  • N__B

    It’s still okay for me to hate everybody, right?

    • CaptainBringdown

      Absolutely. Although if I were you, Inuit would be a lot higher on my hate list than hipsters.

      • DocAmazing

        I imagine he doesn’t hate Inuit if they’re served with the right side dishes…

    • tsam

      As long as you don’t have a reason to do it, yes.

    • NonyNony

      Misanthropy never goes out of style.

    • Thirtyish

      As long as it’s all inclusive, absolutely.

    • The Temporary Name

      Hipsters = new reasons!

      • efgoldman

        One thing you learn with age, is: It’s OK to be annoyed by annoying things, but the world’s not coming to an end, no more than it did in the 60s when we annoyed our elders. Some people grow up, some don’t. Good luck.

    • Dennis Orphen

      Yes, Mr. Rickles.

      • Randy

        Listen to this hockey puck!

  • JS

    I am most disturbed by the fact that Joshua Long considers it OK to use “synergies” non-ironically.

  • tsam

    To me, a hipster is someone who is just trying WAY TOO HARD to be something. Like they’re bucking conformity by dressing like all their friends. It doesn’t have to be douchy beards and flannel, it can be juggalo makeup, cowboy hats and boots, etc…

    It’s fine when someone wants to have a look, it’s less fine when they think everyone else is doing it wrong because we don’t worry about our persona so much.

    • DrS

      juggalo makeup

      Insane Clown Posse will be in town Monday, and I’m trying to determine how many blocks away I should stay.

      I wish there was an app like that site that shows you the prospective blast radius if the train hauling oil goes Lac-Mégantic on ya.

      • tsam

        Just DROP EVERYTHING AND RUN

        • DrS

          I’m totally fascinated by them and I think it would be great people watching.

          Not sure if it’s a great place for the gheys tho.

          • tsam

            I’ve been around them. They’re really not fun. Too much of that tough guy shit among them.

            • DrS

              That’s exactly what I was thinking.

              I’ll just go to the drag show if I want to see people in wild makeup this weekend.

              • tsam

                Yes–MUCH better crowd.

    • Anna in PDX

      When I was in high school my boyfriend and I actually called people “try-hards.” I see that as a different group though. They are like hangers on who want to be hipsters but aren’t doing it right.

      Although as I said above the term really does not mean much, “hipster” has a connotation of that guy who says he liked x band before they sold out, the person who tries to be more-esoteric-than-thou. It also goes together with my image of the type of guy who “mansplains.”

      As a naturally judgmental person I catch myself mentally eye-rolling at people a lot. And I think it’s really unfair and wrong. They are younger than me, they moved to my city because it is a beautiful place and it’s not their fault I am projecting judgment and fear of the future on them.

    • so-in-so

      Isn’t that part of the complaint about every young, “non-conformist” group, that they are really conforming to their own group and just not to the preceding generation? I recall the same comment in the hippy era; they want to be non-conformist by all looking alike.

      • NonyNony

        Yes. This is the same complaint that every generation has about other members of their own generation. There are people who are trend setters, people who are trend followers, and people who are anti-trend altogether.

        It’s the circle of life. I’m pretty sure that every generation back to at least WWII has had all of these groups.

        • LWA

          I recall reading something written in 18th century France, talking about how a gentleman should dress, and just how to convey an air of dashing sophistication and rakishness.
          With minor modification, it could be reprinted today in Esquire.

          • burritoboy

            Lots of complaints in the 15th century about the young fashionables with their long pointed shoes and luxurious sable-trimmed doublets. Clearly signs of severe moral decline.

            • The Temporary Name

              Back then, we could chop their heads off, now all we get to do is shake ours.

          • Bruce B.

            And before that, Julius Caesar was as a young man totally part of a hipster scene.

      • tsam

        It is–but then it’s almost always young people trying to find their own voice. You can’t be angry with them, that’s just part of adolescence. When you’re ostensibly and adult and still go out of the house in a costume of sorts, you have a problem. But that doesn’t mean you can’t do your own thing with clothes and style. It just means that doing and wearing things that are specifically designed to attract controversy isn’t being a non-conformist, it’s being a narcissist.

      • Anna in PDX

        There was also a very funny South Park episode about the goth subculture.

    • Randy

      Like they’re bucking conformity by dressing like all their friends.

      Historically, this is something that has been said about any kind of coutercultural or quasi-countercultural group–beatniks,hippies, etc. “They sneer at us for being conformists, but look at them! They’re conformists, too!”

      http://www.songlyrics.com/guthrie-woody/little-boxes-beatnik-version-lyrics/

      • Anna in PDX

        That Zappa song, “does my hair look good in the back?” Too. I was trying to articulate why that song kinda pisses me off to my Zappa-worshipping partner. Had no luck at all.

      • JL

        Yep. And it seems to come from people who don’t understand that subcultures are a thing and there’s nothing wrong with dressing or otherwise presenting in the fashions of a subculture that you connect with more than mainstream culture.

    • Joe Bob the III

      Mustache wax. That’s where it crosses the line for me.

      • tsam

        Yeah, me too. Kinda makes me want to grab those handlebars and steer them into a toilet bowl for an epic swirly.

        But passing memes around about how sexy beards are makes me a bit irate. If they’re so fucking sexy, why you gotta make a meme that says so? I CALL BULLSHIT.

        • LWA

          So…your gravatar is ironic, but in an unhipster sort of way?

  • NewishLawyer

    The interesting thing to me is that Hipster has been the dominant form of white, youth, sub-culture since the late 1990s when I was a freshman and sophomore in college.

    Williamsburg started becoming cool around 1999. I graduated college in 2002 and a lot of my friends from college were looking for apartments around Williamsburg and in Brooklyn instead of moving to Manhattan. We wore flannel shirts, skinny jeans, some (but less so) had piercings beyond the ears. I don’t think tattoos were a thing yet. We listened to indie rock. We rode bicycles. Etc.

    The look for 20-somethings of that milleu has largely remained unchanged since then. Maybe there is just something timeless to that semi-scruffy Bohemian look. Maybe it just changes name and slightly changes music styles but I since very little different in terms of look and cultural changes between someone who was in their 20s in 1989 and listening to Nirvana as a pre-famous club band. Someone who was in their 20s in 1996 and listening to Sunny Day Real Estate and Guided by Voices and Helium. Someone who was in their 20s in 2002 listening to Sleater-Kinney and Henry’s Dress/Aislers Set/Spoon, and someone in their 20s today listening to Pond, Goat, whoever.

    In contrast there were real aesthetic and cultural and look changes between someone being 20 in 1969 and listening to Hendrix to someone being 20 in 1977 and listening to Disco or Punk Rock.

    So there have been a lot of elements in youth culture that have remained frozen since sometime in the 1990s. I am 35 now. The guy in the photo you shown could have easily been around in 2002 when I was 22. He was around in 2005 when I was 25 and he is around now. If he is my age, he might have more gray hair but is otherwise the same.

    Maybe some of the first hipsters have kids now. There were definitely people I knew in my 20s who were hipsters to a T and now they are parents and still sort of looking like hipsters.

    Part of this is because business dress has largely collapsed even on the more conservative East Coast.

    • NonyNony

      So there have been a lot of elements in youth culture that have remained frozen since sometime in the 1990s. I am 35 now. The guy in the photo you shown could have easily been around in 2002 when I was 22.

      Get rid of the handlebar mustache and he would have fit right in at a Nirvana concert circa 1992 when I was a youngun. Except he’d have to unbutton the flannel shirt.

      • JonH

        Beards were rather less common in 1992, at least in Connecticut and Philadelphia. And the hair is a bit finicky for 1992.

        • DrS

          Yeah. Goatees had some acceptability about then. But we were considered very strange for growing full beards over winter break in 91-92.

  • JonH

    Really nothing needed to be said about hipsters since Charlie Brooker did Nathan Barley in 2005.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rqfkuc5mawg

  • Dilan Esper

    Isn’t the real issue with respect to criticism of hipsters snobbery?

    I mean, to pick one example, I generally love Amanda Marcotte’s writing, but she’s at her absolute worst when she starts talking about how conservatives are jealous because they were not the cool kids or similar sorts of things.

    The sin isn’t to have tastes and preferences that correspond with those of a particular demographic. The sin is to start assuming that those tastes say something important about you and that people with different tastes just don’t measure up and are inferior. And that being “cool” makes you a superior person.

    That’s what really inspires the anti-hipster screeds. And yes, conservatives do this too, just in the other direction. Hence all the statements about “real America” and “real Americans”.

  • Dennis Orphen

    Yesterday, while toodling around on my bicycle I stopped at a thrift store, found a copy of Eugene McDaniel’s Headless Heroes of the Apocalypse/Outlaw on CD, bought it (for a buck plus tax), treated myself to a vegetarian burger with fries and a Mr. Pibb (Xtra unfortunately, they don’t make the real thing anymore), went home, turned on NPR just in time to catch the 8pm news before Fresh Aire, listened to most of Fresh Aire (with Dave, Yay!), then did 2 double bubbler bong rips of some dynamite Girl Scout Cookies (which I grew myself), and finished Chapter 16 of Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire while listening to the aforementioned Eugene McDaniels CD.

    Am I a hipster?

    • wjts

      I don’t know, but the replacement of Mr. Pibb with Pibb Xtra is the second-worst thing that’s ever happened anywhere. (The worst thing is the discontinuation of Coca-Cola with Lime.)

      • MAJeff

        OK…were you listening to “pairings” on YEP this morning?

        • Dennis Orphen

          What’s YEP? I can google (with logical operators even!) but that’s a little generic for me to parse the results quickly and efficiently (which is how real hipsters like to do things).

        • wjts

          No, I don’t really listen to the radio. Were they talking about Mr. Pibb?

      • Dennis Orphen

        Yeah, that even beats roll-up windows and door locks on British sportscars.

      • Thirtyish

        but the replacement of Mr. Pibb with Pibb Xtra Dr. Pepper in many restaurants with Pibb Xtra is the second-worst thing that’s ever happened anywhere.

    • wengler

      You care about that stuff, therefore you are not a hipster.

      • Dennis Orphen

        When one of my buddies dropped the needle down on side A of Swiss Movement my life changed forever and for the better.

        • jeer9

          That is a phenomenal album. Every cut. And I remember when I first heard it as well.

    • ColBatGuano

      and a Mr. Pibb

      Were they out of goat urine?

  • MAJeff

    It is pretty dumb for academics to actually take “hipster” seriously as a category of analysis, especially when it really means “people younger than me who do things I find weird.”

    Substitute “millennial” for “hipster” and I’m a very happy person.

  • wengler

    Hipsters are like steampunk kids that actually don’t care about steampunk. The problem with the term is that it includes anyone now that goes for a certain look, rather than those that are just trying to mock people that are passionate about something.

  • LWA

    Old Stuffy Hidebound Tradition is whatever my parents did;

    Righteous Honorable Sensible Tradition is what I did;

    Stupid Sacrilegious Affront to Tradition is what my kids do.

  • ninja3000

    Have you ever actually witnessed a praxis being deconstructed? It’s really gross!

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