Guilty In Steubenville
The equivalent of a guilty verdict, given the overwhelming evidence, shouldn’t be a sign of progress, but in a sense it is. The rape culture was in evidence throughout the trial:
Throughout this trial, the two defendants and a parade of friends who wound up mostly testifying against the defendants expressed little understanding of rape – let alone common decency or respect for women. Despite the conviction, the defendants likely don’t view themselves as rapists, at least not the classic sense of a man hiding in the shadows.
“It wasn’t violent,” explained teammate Evan Westlake when asked why he didn’t stop the two defendants as they abused a non-moving girl that Westlake knew to be highly intoxicated. “I always pictured it as forcing yourself on someone.”
And, as Travis Waldron points out, it’s remarkable in an awful way that the coach still has his job.
If Westlake had come up with a slogan like “If the condom doesn’t fit, you must acquit!” he might have gotten off (pun not intended).
Speaking of rape culture:
Stay classy, Donalde.
The fact that it happened and the way it has been debated and discussed as if there were some ‘controversy’ shows that there hasn’t been much progress. I suppose that expecting people, even young people, to behave with decency and respect is naive.
Rape is what happens when “a chick gets pissed…or, whatever.” The things I wish I could stick in his tenure file, had I a time machine.
Imagine if, in the middle of sex, a woman stops consenting. She no longer wants to continue engaging in sexual activity, and wants it to stop. Think about what that really means, in terms of what she’s doing, what she’s feeling, what she’s going through. Maybe something hurts, or maybe you did or said something that put her off, or maybe she just thought of something that spoiled the mood. There are a million possibilities, but bottom line, she’s not into it anymore – and not just “not into it,” but so not into it that she wants the sex she was into just a moment ago, which had proceeded along for a while, to a certain point, to stop.
Donald wouldn’t notice until afterwards. That’s what he’s saying – that such a change in her would be a technicality that he’d have no reason to be aware of, or to alter his behavior towards.
Having sex with a woman who wants to have sex with him, and one who does not, would not seem any different to him.
Hurry, ladies!
Maybe we’d be safer if someone pointed out that animals can’t bring rape charges.
Course, me, I’d like then to start the rumour that wolverines are really good at fellatio…
“Course, me, I’d like then to start the rumour that wolverines are really good at fellatio…”
hurry to CPAC!
Imagine if, in the middle of sex, a woman stops consenting.
That has actually happened to me.
You know what? I stopped.
It didn’t make it rape. It made it consensual sex where the woman withdrew her consent. What would have made it rape? If I had continued.
In my youth, someone who wasn’t me was having vigorous sex with a woman outdoors, when she slipped and gashed her head open on a rock. She was barely conscious, and this person who wasn’t me was “in the heat of the moment,” but instead of allowing his “animal instincts” to compel him to “relieve” his “extreme sexual tension,” he stopped and attended to his partner’s wounds. Moreover, even though his “extreme sexual tension” went unrelieved, his balls didn’t explode, nor did they turn blue and cripple him.
It’s almost as he cared more for the well-being of his partner than his own sexual gratification, a situation which the Donalde seems incapable of imagining. Were he in a similar situation, I imagine he’d tell her to mop her brow with some leaves, because he’s almost there, damn it, almost there…
…or, given what we know about him, seeing a woman injured would’ve been enough to finish him off. In either case, it’s just more of the Donalde’s typical dehumanization of women. He’s no better, nor different, than some kid on 4chan who doesn’t think cumbuckets have a right to give, much less revoke consent, because they have a duty to fulfill their function.
This is why everyone who isn’t SEK should refrain from having sex outdoors but should pick somewhere safer, like SEK’s office.
Seems like you should include a link
It’s either not as bad as you’re suggesting or much worse: I suspect strongly that he defines ‘sex’ as ‘what happens between penetration and his orgasm’, and therefore the time period in which his partner would be asked to tolerate his disinterest in her consent would be…seconds.
Not that I’m excusing his assholery, just that the context matters.
With some bonus pro-rape arguments from everyone’s favorite neoconfederate!
These young misogynistic sociopaths will be free again, when they turn 21.
Still young enough for the “Young Republicans,” who can juse a few new misogynistic sociopaths, to recruite to replace the ones that are dying off.
It’s surprising the black perp wasn’t tried as an adult, and the white perp tried as a youth.
Well, on the one hand it’s awful if they feel free to do these things again and don’t change in any way as a result of the experience. On the other, just because the crime is awful and misogynistic doesn’t mean we should be eager to throw away the entire lives of teenagers who make (really, really, really) bad decisions. There’s a reason that people are prosecuted as juveniles before they reach a certain age, and it’s illiberal (not to mention unconstitutional) to suggest that they should be locked up forever for a non-lethal crime.
I’ve taught in Maximum Security Prison, so normally, I feel bad for anyone but the most hardened of sociopaths, who ends up there.
But considering neither one was overly remorseful, if they were remorseful about anything except being caught, I don’t mind that they’ll serve time.
I’m not ready to throw them in jail forever, or assume that they’ve thrown their lives away, since I hope they can be rehabilitated, and lead productive lives.
My point was that once they get out, they currently have the qualities that that creep, O’Keefe, and the other ratfeckers on the Conservative side, want.
I interviewed a kid once… well he was 24 at the time … but he’d been locked up since he was 17 for selling crack. He was hoping to get his sentenced modified from IIRC 16 years down to eight. Kid wasn’t a kingpin, was barely a baller, but he got to spend a decade locked up.
If that’s an acceptable sentence for what he did, then throwing away the key should be acceptable for these sick little scumbags from Steuvebville.
BTW, the kid got the sentence reduction, and it was a great excuse for the county’s criminal justice apparatus to congratulate itself on how progressive it was.
Is it?
Should we treat the sentencing in that case as the standard by which we measure the justice of other sentences?
I would answer in the negative. It’s a hard question as to what a teenaged rapist
deservesshould get as far as a sentence, but I feel really, really confident that drug sentencing laws aren’t a worthwhile guide to anyone, other than the Marquis De Sade.If that’s an acceptable sentence for what he did,
Except, of course, that should not be an acceptable sentence. It is pretty fucking appalling, actually.
These young misogynistic sociopaths will be free again, when they turn 21.
Human psychology being what it is, they will by that time be justifying their behavior to themselves so thoroughly that they are likely to be VIRULENT woman-haters for the rest of their lives, possibly sexually twisted in some way, and take every opportunity to loudly and aggressively defend any aspect of rape culture that arises in their vicinity. They’ll be pretty active on Men’s Rights message boards and get their kicks from trolling women’s forums.)
They were just having a little fun, see, and okay, they might have got a LITTLE carried away, but this bullshit criminal case and time in juvie! is an outrageous over-reaction to something that really wasn’t all that serious, gaudammit!!
:: mutter mutter SLUT mutter mutter ::
In other words, this verdict might teach other young men to have more caution, but it’s likely to make these particular young men even more sociopathic. People, they suck.
I wasn’t addressing People, I was talking ABOUT people.
God, that’s depressing.
These are teenagers. They’re still growing. They are not yet fully-baked.
There are some pretty good empathy programs for incarcerated people in this country, depending on where they’re doing their time. Maybe they’ll grow during their time inside.
If we don’t have any hope of that, then why have a distinct juvenile justice system at all?
I’m hoping they learn, and grow.
But when they’re released, they will go into their new communities as acknowledged sex offenders, so they can be monitored closely – which may bring about some other psychiatric problems, for them, and their neighbors.
Still, they won’t have as hard a time as the young woman who was raped, who’ll face the consequences of our culture’s male-centered idiocy – which, to be honest, is not as bad as it is in some other cultures.
In some countries, she’d have been killed, for being raped.
That makes us look practically enlightened, in comparison.
We still have a long, long way to go, but at least we’re not executing rape victims.
I’m not worried about the psychological security of their future NIMBY neighors,but the registered sex offender thing gives me pause, especially given that these are juveniles and the increasingly inhumane treatment meted out more or less indiscriminately to “sex offenders”:
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/building-tiny-parks-to-drive-sex-offenders-away.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
Only in comparatively recent times has incarceration been viewed as a potentially successful method by which the state (or, often, a private entity) rehabilitates someone. That theory has yet to be proven. You know this, so please stop feigning naivete and, perhaps, direct your sympathies towards the actual victim.
I’m fairly certain that lamenting that a couple of teenage offenders probably won’t learn any empathy and may even become more monstrous as a result of all this doesn’t quite make you Candy Crowley.
Hoping that this is not inevitable:
and supporting incarceration and in-prison treatment programs aimed at avoiding it plainly makes me history’s greatest monster, lacking sympathy for the victims.
Cuz tonight I’m gonna party like it’s 1982.
Thank you, Morton Downey, Junior Junior. I’m going to stick with the actual, liberal position of supporting rehabilitation, believing in the difference between adult an juvenile offenders, and otherwise dismissing your cheap-shot, “soft-on-crime,” “victim’s rights” blather as the retrograde, reactionary, illiberal, authoritarian bullshit it is and has always been.
Anonymous,
Ed Meese is fascinated by your ideas about rehabilitation and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. He says so in this speech he gave in support of federal mandatory minimum laws.
That Ed Meese: now there’s a good progressive, ever vigilant about the looming threat of believing in rehabilitation.
The most depressing thing, Joe, is that this sort of thing is going on right now, and most of the rapists won’t even get charged. This case was an exception.
I’m the sort of broad-minded person who can be depressed by more than one thing at a time.
It’s a gift.
I was comparing, not excluding. Hence ‘most’.
Great, now I’m mildly disappointed that I missed your point.
Some men do change and learn about this stuff as they grow up, most famous example being John Lennon. Whether these particular little shits will or not, is of course impossible to say.
It’d be nice if we would start teaching Johns to act like Yokos are people from the start and then maybe this girl wouldn’t have to go through horrible shit I can’t imagine. But that’s not yet who we are as a culture.
I think the other thing to remember is all we know about group psychology. It’s real easy for a mob of people, probably especially young, drunk ones, to become as bad as the group’s worst member. That’s a terrible shame, but it seems to just be how we are. What seems less-forgivable than standing by and watching this happen are the after the fact excuse-makers, who have the benefit of hindsight and not being under as strong a pull of those psychological dynamics, and are still just disasters of human beings. I mean, even Winchy didn’t want to defend this straight up.
Yeah, rape culture was discussed during the trial-as a defense! Christ on a cracker.
No, not really, but the second hand reporting of the trial has been so bad that pretty much everyone thinks it was. Although I’m not too broken up about everyone having the matter incorrect if it does serve the purpose of making people reconsider rape culture.
So the defense did not say that the girl had given her consent by not affirmatively saying no? Because that’s rape culture as a defense.
No. Multiple national outlets took a very poorly written account from the Plain-Dealer and ran with the idea that they did, but in fact that does not seem to be the case. And given that a) the plain letter of the law in the state says that an explicit “no” is not required to show lack of consent and b) juvenile court (in Ohio, at least) does not use juries, only judges, the idea that the defense was using this argument is pretty ridiculous on its face.
But, again, I’m not going to be too broken up about the misreading of it all if it does some good.
That’s good, at least in a way. Obviously it says bad things about the quality of our journalism, but sadly that’s not news. I guess I’ll just join you in being glad for any good that came out of the conversation.
I think it was an easy mistake to make not knowing that there wasn’t a jury trial. Indeed, I initially assumed it was true because I assumed the defendants were being tried as adults.
FWIW, my understanding is that the defense claimed that the victim had consented earlier in the night, had not subsequently said “no,” and had done other things (like remembering her phone’s passcode) to give the defendants reason to think she was lucid. It’s a pretty ridiculous defense, but to the extent it’s being put forward by the people with an actual obligation to defend the accused, at least it’s a claim of innocence (or non-guilt) as opposed to “yeah they did it, but she had it coming.”
I meant in the sense of “these poor boys didn’t know what rape was! society!” That’s what it seemed like to me, but I haven’t put much effort into parsing the reporting so I don’t know.
Ah, gotcha. Thought you meant the actual defense.
Yeah I phrased that very poorly.
Also-her friends testifying against her. They cut her off (friend-wise) after the incident. Basically blaming the victim because she was drunk and not listening to them. Women so used to taking precautions in situations like this that they turn around and blame the victim when something happens. Classic rape culture.
Although, my original comment was rape culture as a “defense,”-this is just rape culture. But this sort of mindset/social norms are a sort of implicit defense to situations like this.
Yeah, no argument on that front. I guess I just made the assumption because most of the discussion I’ve seen focused on here is the defense team’s argument, which seems to be both flawed and pretty pointless even if it wasn’t (sixth amendment and all that).
If it hadn’t been for the persistence of a couple of semi-local bloggers, and then being picked up in the NYT and blowing up nationally, this while thing would have been quietly dismissed.
Also, here’s some more rape culture for you: “I would truly like to apologize to [girl's name], her family, and the community … No pictures should have been sent around, let alone taken,” Mays told the courtroom.
Not sure what the ellipsis is skipping over, but it sounds like he thinks the mistake he made was tweeting camphone pics and not, y’know, the whole rape thing. Nice. Lesson learned – the next time his buddies decide to gang-rape a roofied teenager with some household objects, they’ll make sure everyone puts their cameras away first.
The ellipses merely indicate a pause. Nothing left out. The other kid starts to give more of an apology, but then breaks down.
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=50142999n
Saw that Republican AG Mike DeWine wants a state grand jury to look into the case.
I was pleasantly surprised that the point is *not* to somehow exonerate the guilty kids, but to determine if anyone else should be prosecuted.
Though I suppose DeWine could be trying to shield the coach, or others.
Yes, clearly as Faux Noise would have it, it’s foolish to teach young men what rape is and how not to do it, because DUH everyone knows that rape only happens from skeevy guys who hang out in bushes, leaping on night-time passersby in short skirts or who are showing cleavage, thus clearly advertising that they wanted it.
“…short skirts or who are showing cleavage….”
You mean like the women who host FoxNoise shows? Or Ann Coulter?
No, I’m sure they’re Good Girls who never do any of the things those Bad Girls do to get themselves raped by Strange Scary (usually Black) Men.
Auntie Toms?
Can we not, for once, merrily engage with the slut-shaming and body-policing of other women? If you want to attack journalists for their heinously stupid ideas, have the fuck at it. Their bodies, hairstyles, and dress is not up for debate and does not prove your point for you–it does make you look like a fucking asshole when you pounce on it gleefully, however.
Seconded.
You, also, may want your sarcasm detector recalibrated. Seems to be on the fritz.
Hey…ewer heard of sarcasm? Brand new thing, all the rage on the Internet.
Tool.
Frakkin’ Poe.
Dude. I get it. You’re still talking cleavage and those Baaa-aad FauxNews ™ Ladies like there’s a connection there. Auntie Toms, motherfucker? Look in the mirror.
Learn to Internet, pinhead.
The cleavage remark? Wasn’t by me. See those little lines in bold? Those are people’s handles. They’re attached to their comments, for people who don’t feel the need to hide everything about themselves.
Then I sarcastically (look it up, I’m fairly sure you don’t get the concept yet) said, as I’m sure they would (that’s the sarcasm bit, don’t worry, they cover it when you get to Grade 3), that they’d likely blame it on victims.
You can’t fucking read, don’t fucking comment.
Excuse me – was by me, but was part of sarcasm. The one who said it was part of how specific reporters presented themselves? THAT wasn’t me.
Done with this silliness now, enjoy your mental wankery on the high horse.
You are arguing with someone who doesn’t even have the guts to associate their comments with a pseudonym, let alone a name.
Ignore anything that comes from such people, is my advice to you.
Besides, Rule 34 shows that it really doesn’t matter how you dress or what you look like. Nuns, grandmothers, women in burkas, women judges in robes, sixty-year-old fat bald male judges in robes – there’s someone out there fantasizing about you.
You seem a little unduly shocked that some people might find (culturally) unconventional men sexy.
Only if they’re drenched in maple syrup.
Why is the concept of no sex without consent really that hard to understand? Why do so many people think that rape has to involve physical force or violence of some sort? These aren’t difficult concepts. No sex unless all parties involved want it and are capable of giving informed consent.
Because they’re making shit up now to make themselves seem like less willing participants in the act, I’m guessing.
Because they honestly seem to believe that the world is full of women who are just waiting to get them alone for five minutes so they can press false rape charges. They believe this is a real thing that men, in general, need to be very worried about, and that this concern is much more important than a woman’s concern that she might be actually raped.
They live in a very strange world, but they keep trying to make us move there.
Because that is the only “legitimate” rape, according to them.
It’s absolute nonsense, but there it is.
Amanda Marcotte pointed out back in February that these guys that claim the social cues involved in consent to sex are so hard to understand are full of shit, given that they seem to manage all sorts of other complex interactions every day. We might get dumber when we’re horny, as people are fond of pointing out, but not that much dumber.
I don’t understand why the conviction was for digital penetration only. From that horrific youtube video, I had the clear impression that they had penetrated her in other ways (and, no, I do not have the stomach to watch it again to be sure). Was the problem a lack of evidence?
That is rape, in Ohio at least. The level of the offense is the same, so from a legal point of view it doesn’t really matter what was used to penetrate the person.
Also remarkable: that Candy Crowley still has a job.
I can believe that, but apparently Mays had enough understanding to text the victim repeatedly in an attempt to get her not to press charges. I wouldn’t take all of this “Gee, we didn’t know it was rape” stuff entirely at face value.
Even during the end of the trial, Mays didn’t apologize for the rape he committed or the continued rape he helped set up.
The only thing he apologized for was basically just that people other than his friends found out that a rapist (him) was bragging about a rape.
re: the “rape culture”
Let’s not forget about the *rap* culture as well !!
This rap and hip-hop trash is filthy and degenerate; it’s rotten to the bone ; and it is satanic to the core. The rap and hip-hop culture is one of the most brutal, disgusting collections of foulness ever seen on the face of the earth.
It encourages rape. When one looks back at history and sees that men in benign and stable cultures turned to rape as soon as the Rule of Law disappeared and they knew that they could get away with it, pangs of dread in the pit of one’s stomach begin.
Remember: rape is a quasi-universal phenomenon in war, particularly among non-Christians and anti-Christians.
Now add to this the hip-hop culture — which is basically a foreign exchange program from hell !! Those rap-trash people are demonically influenced ; their humanity is reduced — so that they are virtually ravenous animals just waiting behind a grate to be loosed on the folks — and this culture has all been cultivated and brought to its satanic fullness before the Civil War II even breaks out.
When you listen to rap music, with its pornographic lyrics and culture of animalistic, bestial sex (bestial, in that everyone is reduced to an object, a pack of meat), and you combine that with the fact that many rap/hip-hop culture “men” who have spent time in prison are already very comfortable with sodomite acts and sodomite rape, then you realize that everyone will be a rape target – women, children and men.
there’s no way you’re for real
Seriously. This is boring.
It’s blasphemy, threatening violence, braggadocio, atheistic materialism, drug use and trafficking, and the vilification/objectification of women.
But it’s great to let a woman know in advance what acts of sodomy you expect her to perform during your bestial, soulless “hook-up”.
Rape has been common since long before the advent of hip hop.
He’ll, just last week LGM posted a quote from Shakespeare in which rape was threatened as a weapon of war by good ol’ Henry V.
Indeed; rape is a nearly-universal phenomenon in war. My point was that the hip-hop culture and the prison culture will fuel the use of rape as a weapon in the coming civil war.
…he typed, and reached for his semen-stained copy of The Turner Diaries.
Please, I think such things should best be shared with your spiritual adviser and/or psychotherapist.
Huh?
Your fantasies, Chesternut.
Wait, something doesn’t quite add up about this one.
Let’s try…a remix.
I’m aware that I’m incredibly white, so I doubt that’s much good, but there’s something lyrical about your denunciation of rap music – an attention to cadence and internal rhyme, an awareness of the public nature of the message – which makes it possible to rewrite it as rap.
That’s odd.
I was a male teenager once. No part of me ever thought it was OK to stick my dick and/or other things into another person without their consent. The amount of people in that town identifying with the rapists is the sickening part of this story.
Some of your young football players are horrible people, Steubenville. They don’t get a pass. Good work by the people that kept this story alive.
http://truth-out.org/news/item/13878-how-anonymous-hacking-exposed-steubenville-high-school-rape-case:
Before the ruling was handed down, Melissa-Harris Perry (guest hosted by someone) had a good discussion of various issues in this case on Saturday.