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The Horror in South Carolina

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EP-141009948.jpg&MaxW=520&q=85Above: a state capitol. In 2015.

 

I don’t think I have anything to tell you about the killings in South Carolina that you don’t already know. I can tell you that the Charleston Post and Courier has been doing absolutely remarkable work, and that Jamelle Bouie’s piece on Emanuel African Methodist Episcopal Church is essential.

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  • ThrottleJockey

    Tragic, tragic, tragic. I can’t help but think that with that name, Dylan Storm Roof, this kid was raised to hate. Whatever sentence gets handed down–and this is one time the death sentence is more than justifiable–his parents should get twice that.

    God help that poor church.

    • Ahenobarbus

      I don’t think his parents are (or should) be given the death penalty. That being said, his father apparently bought him a gun earlier this year. DSR was (in his uncle’s words) a loner, stayed in his room, not shy about his racist extremism. But his Dad thinks it’s a good idea to buy him a 45.

      • StellaB

        Given that I’ve seen at least one pre-capture story illustrated with a mug shot of the guy, there’s an even better reason not to have given the kid a gun.

        • osceola

          I’m waiting for the media to blame it on bad white parenting, or “white fathers need to take more responsibility.”

          And of course kids like that need to pull their pants up and stop listening to that music I don’t like.

          • ThrottleJockey

            For all those things and especially for buying his hate filled son a gun the father, at minimum, should be shacked up with his son on Death Row, counting down the days he has left.

          • rea

            The father gave him a gun for his birthday, while the young man was free on bond for various drug and trespassing charges. I don’t know how it works down there, but ordinarily around here we usually make not possessing firearms a condition of bond . . .

            • trollhattan

              Dad’s ass is going to be in a massive civil court sling the rest of his life. Since he’s doubtless a mamman-worshipper, that will be at least some measure of justice.

      • ThrottleJockey

        True story: My cousin, who has a conceal carry license, was driving down some rural Midwestern highway when a pick up truck drives up alongside him. The truck rolls down its window and the man driving the truck yells out to the boy in the passenger’s seat, “Go ahead, go ahead tell ’em what I told ya.” And the boy leans out the window and shouts out to my cousin, “Go back to Africa you stupid coon nigger!”

        My cousin said he pulled behind the truck and followed them for a distance thinking that he was going to take his gun and shoot the father. After about 10 minutes he said “God got a hold of him” and he pulled off the highway to cool off. Said that’s the only time he’s ever thought to use his gun.

        Hence why I said the father deserves the same penalty. He’s only 21, he hasn’t lived long enough to hate that deeply. Just like Dhokar Tsarnaev, he learned this vile shit.

        • Ahenobarbus

          Of course the father doesn’t deserve the death penalty. Of course not. Some kind of punishment for giving him the gun? Sure.

          • ThrottleJockey

            Its not giving him a gun that caused this carnage. How many fathers give their kids guns? My father gave me a gun. I’ve never killed anyone. Its not giving him the gun, its filling his mind with hate. That poison was surely more deadly. Its like fighting cancer. You can’t cure the sickness by treating the symptoms, you’ve got to kill the cause.

            • Ahenobarbus

              So is it a general rule: whenever a young man (not child anymore, young man) commits murder, the parents go too? Will you support this if it’s not a racist gun-nut who does it?

              What about those who kill in the name of ISIS or radical Islam? Should their parents be sent to jail?

              • ThrottleJockey

                I didn’t mention Dzhokar Tsarnaev by accident. His mother fed him and his brother a heavy diet of anti-semitism and insisted that 9/11 was the US Government’s false flag operation to defame Islam. Everyone’s entitled to their beliefs, but when you incite violence and people die in the aftermath, then there needs to be an accounting.

                • jben

                  Believe me, I understand the impulse, but this is a bad idea.

            • rea

              Although when your son is out on bond for a felony, giving him a gun for his birthday might not be a good idea.

            • The Pale Scot

              Flogging and Castration?

              Probably be safest to sterilize the whole clan.

              Cheney’s 1% rule and such.

        • Rob in CT

          Your cousin might want to consider that having a gun isn’t a great idea, based on that anecdote. He was, apparently, fairly close to committing murder.

          To your main point: I agree that this shit is learned, often if not always from the parental units. I’m not sure how to handle that in terms of punishment, though.

          I’m anti-DP anyway, but beyond that we don’t typically charge enablers/instigators as severely as the actual perpetrators of crimes, do we?

          • KmCO

            Exactly. I’m anti-death penalty also, but I can understand TJ’s anger here and empathize to some degree with wanting justice wrt the fact that Roof was enabled by his parents and our white supremacist culture. But if TJ is seriously advocating death sentences for Roof’s parents, he needs to understand that he’s advancing something way beyond our judicicial system, and that’s not really a good thing.

          • ThrottleJockey

            Yes he was. I don’t think he carries the gun anymore. It was many years ago. He’s changed his life a great deal. Entered the ministry, raised a family, etc.

            What struck me about the story is that we all “know” kids learn racism from their parents. I have examples I’ve witnessed. But to see it in such a brazen way illustrates why we really have to get in under control.

            Despite murder being wrong, if you kick a dog so many times sooner or later it will bite you. That’s just biology.

            • jim, some guy in iowa

              conditioning and/or behavior are not biology

              • ThrottleJockey

                Really? I was taught that the instinct of self-preservation is the strongest biological instinct of all. Like Chris Rock said about those tigers that attacked Siegfried & Roy, “Those tigers didn’t go crazy, those tigers went tiger!”

        • Roger Ailes

          Just the father?

        • Origami Isopod

          He’s only 21, he hasn’t lived long enough to hate that deeply.

          Yet you were arguing the other day for teenagers to be tried like adults.

          • jben

            Trying to expect consistency from TJ in anything but trolling is a fool’s errand.

            • Origami Isopod

              Of course it is. But it’s always useful to point out.

          • ThrottleJockey

            There’s no inconsistency. Say this guy had been 16, I’d still think he should be tried as an adult–even under the horrific parental guidance he got–and given a 30 years to life sentence. Actions have consequences.

            I also added the big caveat that it should be for serious crime like murder and attempted murder…Which begs the question: Why should we sympathize with murderers? Had this guy been in jail instead of out on bail we wouldn’t have 9 dead lives today. That’s what being overly sympathetic gets you.

            • Warren Terra

              Had this guy been in jail instead of out on bail we wouldn’t have 9 dead lives today.

              Yeah, sure, and if a crackerjack squad of time-travelling assassins had only murdered him last week, his victims would have been spared.

              My understanding is that he was on bail for low-level, nonviolent crimes (drug possession and trespassing). We do not want to jail every such person lest they turn out to be an incipient mass murderer; we shouldn’t even want to jail alleged petty criminals until their trial occurs, as we’ve so tragically seen in New York City recently.

              • ThrottleJockey

                Before I address your point: Man, you’ve got to admit that those 2 cases are nothing alike, Warren!

                We have to be careful how much we sympathize with violent criminals. I can’t say that I understand that particular impulse among some people. You want to sympathize with the casualties of the War on Drugs? Fine. I’ve long since thought that pot should be legalized. But criminals proven to be violent? Why should we feel sorry for those guys?

                • Warren Terra

                  He was on bail for drug possession and trespassing. I don’t know the details – and I’ll grant you that actually getting charged with and prosecuted for trespassing is far more likely if you’re belligerent when told to skedaddle – but these really aren’t charges that indicate anyone thought he was a threat to anyone.

                  Maybe he should have been civilly committed – apparently he spent months openly fantasizing about committing a murder/suicide outrage, the sort of thing that might to my non-lawyer mind merit at least a flirtation with civil commitment. But that’s unrelated to the criminal charges he was facing. Someone up for possession and trespassing should be out on bail pending trial.

                  ETA: RE how much we should sympathize with him – he wasn’t charged with being a violent criminal, at least not as the charges are named. Surely you’re not saying you want everyone up for possession and mopery to be denied bail?

                • ThrottleJockey

                  I’m not saying every person facing a misdemeanor should bide their time behind bars before trial. That wouldn’t be remotely practicable nor affordable.

                  In this case he was charged with criminal trespass because he creeped out the mall staff. Based on the comments he made to friends about wanting to kill a bunch of people, it seems the mall workers had good reason to be creeped out.
                  Indicators of violence have to be taken more seriously and if there’s anyone law enforcement is loathe to take seriously its white guys. Its not that sympathy has no place, its that its best confined to the sentencing phase. The first and foremost goal of any criminal justice system has to be public safety.

      • Ahuitzotl

        Please dont acronymize him, it is somewhat seen as a measure of cool.

    • J. Otto Pohl

      Dylan is a name connected to hate? Granted there is Bob Dylan’s support for Israeli aggression during the Lebanese War. But, he could be name after Dylan Thomas.

      • StellaB

        “Storm” because they were too chicken to use “Stormfront”.

        • ThrottleJockey

          Yep, “Stormfront” was the first thing that came to mind when I heard his name. Otherwise why even publish your middle name?

          • Ahenobarbus

            What do you mean, publish it? The media often uses the middle name of killers (presumably there are other Dylan Roof’s in the US who appreciate that).

            • ThrottleJockey

              Fair enough. I was assuming he had published his middle name on Facebook and was thinking who does that? (I certainly don’t). But if this was the newspapers trying to connect him to Lee Harvey Oswald, etc, I see your point.

              • Newspapers usually use the full legal names of killers because that’s what the police tend to report, & it also reduces the negative impact on other people with the same first and last names. I don’t think it’s an attempt to associate the killers with previous ones.

            • KmCO

              Exactly. There’s also John Wayne Gacy, who as far as I know was known as John Gacy before he became famous. And there is absolutely no question that Roof’s parents contributed mightily to their son’s sociopathy and criminality, but TJ’s comment about the name they gave him just strikes me as odd, and not really relevant.

              • The Pale Scot

                Stormfront was the idea,

                The only people with storm in their names are characters in Conan stories (post Howard)

                • Lee Rudolph

                  Josephine Owaissa Cottle begs to differ with you.

                • ajay

                  The only people with storm in their names are characters in Conan stories (post Howard)

                  I shouldn’t have to remind you of the existence of A Child Named Storm. (Now 4 years old and presumably still genderless.)

                  Also Storm Constantine for that matter.

                • Manny Kant

                  But Storm is one of our most prominent black superheroes!

        • Jordan

          yeah, but stormfront barely existed 21 years ago, I think. Unless the fucker is the son of the founders, basically, its not a connection to stormfront.

          • Warren Terra

            Though, they could have been fascinated with Sturmtruppen. Or, for that matter, with Stormtroopers.

          • jim, some guy in iowa

            maybe they just misspelled “Strom”

          • KmCO

            I may be mistaken, but I thought that they are an organization that predates the Internet (but the Internet is what has turned them into the fairly large and hodgepodge community they are now).

      • rea

        “Dylann” rather than “Dylan.” The only other Dylann I’ve heard of is a female soccer player

      • trollhattan

        Never, in the history of ever, has the name Dylan been associated with mass murder.

    • Incontinentia Buttocks

      I don’t think anyone should ever be given the death penalty. This is not the time and place to hash out the case for abolishing capital punishment. But I will note that if one does favor doing so, one doesn’t make exceptions, even for someone like DSR (if he’s found guilty) or even Adolf Eichmann.

      • ThrottleJockey

        To your point, if you can’t make the case now for not killing Roof is there ever a time when you can make the case?

        Your argument seems to imply that grief and emotion should not be taken into account in sentencing. I think grief and emotion are absolutely imperative factors in sentencing. I don’t think they should be the sole factors–depravity and heinousness are equally important–but they are crucial.

  • MeDrewNotYou

    In a TPM article about the shooter, there’s a picture of him in a jacket wearing some odd looking patches. Someone in the comments pointed out that one was the apartheid South African flag and the other was the (a?) flag of colonial Rhodesia. Unfortunately I can’t seem to find it now.

    Meanwhile Guiliani has been on Fox News all morning saying that we don’t know the shooter’s motivations and to speculate would be wrong.

    (I offered my mom a $5 bet that this wouldn’t be labeled a terrorist attack by most media. She wisely refused the wager.)

    • liberal

      Billmon (former blogger and current tweeter) pointed out that there’s absolutely no reason why this guy is labeled a lone-wolf nutjob, with the terrorist label and ideological affiliations missing, whereas the opposite seems true for every “Muslim” attack.

      • MeDrewNotYou

        Of course! Everyone knows that white people aren’t terrorists. Melanin is the stuff that Dr Jeckyl was injecting. When we kill people, we’re just watering the tree of liberty.

      • joe from Lowell

        This is a little out of date. The press and government have been talking about “lone wolf” Muslim terrorists for years.

        TIME

        “It’s always the one we feared, the lone wolf that can come from nowhere and not be on our radar,” said ex-London police chief John Yates.

        • A wolf big enough and dense enough to appear on radar would scare the hell out of me.

          • Lee Rudolph

            “My, Grandma, what a large cross-section you have!”

          • joe from Lowell

            Just wait until they develop stealth.

          • Hogan

            What you got there is a direwolf. Must be a Stark nearby.

    • MeDrewNotYou
    • NonyNony

      If they do stick a terrorism label on it, it’ll be “anti-Christian terrorism”. That’s the angle Fox News has been trying to make stick all morning. They know that if they can get it embedded in their viewers heads before the facts come out then when it turns out to be an act of white supremacist terrorism they can move onto the next story secure in the knowledge that they’ve “already covered it” and their viewing demographic won’t be exposed to any uncomfortable thoughts that might lead them to switch the channel and watch something other than Fox News for a bit.

      • Owlbear1

        If it was “anti-christian” terrorism the killer would have walked into the church nearest his home and started shooting.

        I seriously doubt that is the case. It might prove useful to find out how many churches Roof had to bypass to reach his destination.

        • NonyNony

          Fox is already shilling this narrative and have been at least since this morning.

          It’s either anti-Christian terrorism or it’s a lone nut with a gun committing mass murder. It certainly won’t be white supremacist terrorism because that just doesn’t exist in the US.

          • Malaclypse

            Vox Day posted that it couldn’t be racism, because white supremacists would go after, and I quote, “thugs and welfare queens” instead of churchgoers, therefore Nameless Bastard must either be an atheist or a Jihadi. I guess the whole Rhodesia thing is just a coincidence.

            • Lee Rudolph

              Vox Day is quite a piece of work, isn’t he?

              • Rob in CT

                He’s a pimple on the ass of humanity, and noone should pay the slightest attention to him. Well, except perhaps the Italian police. They might want to keep an eye on him.

              • witlesschum

                He’s a troll who says shit like that to provoke. Not that he isn’t a sincere racist sexist homophobic dumbshit or anything, but he also plays dumb to get a rise out of people.

                • Jordan

                  He plays dumb, but I’m not sure he’s all that stupid. He’s absolutely a troll who says shit to provoke. But he does more than just that, and often seems successful at it.

                  IOW: he’s evil, but not stupid.

            • Hogan

              Well sure. It’s not like there are any white churches in Charleston.

              • rea

                Rev. Clementa Pinckney was rather prominent in SC politics (you will see he called by his other title, Senator), and the church was fairly famous due to its history–either might have made them targets for a white racist.

      • kayden

        And how do we know that Roof doesn’t consider himself to be a Christian, like many other Aryan Christians or the KKK? There are White racists who identify as Christians. His comments before the shooting make it very clear that he was motivated by anti-Black racism.

        • ThrottleJockey

          A lot of racists are Christian. In this country undoubtedly most.

      • DrDick

        They refuse to admit that conservative white Christians are the greatest terrorist threat to this country and have committed more acts of terror than everybody else combined over the last 40 years.

      • Origami Isopod

        Guess who else is playing the “anti-Christian” card?

    • Rob in CT

      Yes, the flags of Rhodesia and Apartheid SA. CBF license plate on his car.

      You know, I was thinking. Some of us like calling that flag The Flag of Treason in Defense of Slavery, which is nifty and all, but isn’t The Flag of Jim Crow even more accurate?

      According to the Balloon Juice comments, Fox is running with this being an attack on Christians/religion and/or it’s a mental health issue. Not really about racism because nothing is about racism. And it is, of course, terribly uncouth to bring up gun culture.

      Re: his name, it does have a “nutbar who shoots up a church” ring to it, dunnit? It’s the Storm in the middle, I think.

      Also, too: he has certain physical similarities to the shame of my State, Adam Lanza.

      edit: also, he apparently said something about black people raping white women and taking over the country just before opening fire. The whole “it’s not about racism” angle Fox is trying is gonna be a tough row to hoe.

      • he has certain physical similarities to the shame of my State, Adam Lanza.

        These murdering assholes are making the bowl haircut a thing of shame, sullying the glory that the Three Stooges covered it with. Or something.

        • KmCO

          I’ll admit that, anymore, when I see a white guy over about 16 with a bowl cut, I have an immediate reaction along the lines of “this guy is either kind of odd in a harmless way or he’s got some revanchist/Dark Enlightenment tendencies and I’d best stay away.” Unfair, perhaps, but there you have it.

    • D.N. Nation

      These wingnut jabronis have whittled and whittled and whittled away at “racism”/”racist” until it means nothing. It’s gotten to a point with all the “I’m not racist, but…” that the only possible definition of racism is:

      1) White hoods, burning crosses
      and
      2) Black people expressing legitimate complaints.

      Well, this guy had Apartheid flag pins and Confederate flag bumper stickers and shot up a black church and said exactly why he was doing it while he was doing it and….it’s just not faiiiiiiir! to question his motives.

      So strike #1 off that list, then. How can we know that white hoods and burning crosses really mean racism? What if they’re just sick of Obama? Legitimate political complaint! Legitimate political debate!

      #2 remains, though. B-b-b-b-b-but Sharpton and all.

    • joe from Lowell

      Meanwhile Guiliani has been on Fox News all morning saying that we don’t know the shooter’s motivations and to speculate would be wrong.

      Nikki Haley can top that:

      “Michael, Rena, Nalin and I are praying for the victims and families touched by tonight’s senseless tragedy at Emanuel AME Church,” South Carolina Governor Nikki Haley said in a statement Wednesday. “While we do not yet know all of the details, we do know that we’ll never understand what motivates anyone to enter one of our places of worship and take the life of another. Please join us in lifting up the victims and their families with our love and prayers.”

      Not only do we not know, Nony; we can never know. Hey, look over there: God!

      • Linnaeus

        Yep. Senseless. Can’t be explained. What ya gonna do?

        • Rob in CT

          Great mystery of the universe, that is.

          • Hogan

            It’s like the square root of a million–no one will ever figure it out.

      • wjts

        Everyone: I guess we’ll never know why he did it.
        Shooter: I did it because I hate black people.
        Everyone: I guess we’ll never know why he did it.

        • Lee Rudolph

          Anyone so mentally ill that he would commit that sort of gun abuse is clearly so mentally ill that you shouldn’t believe a word he says!

    • Richard Gadsden

      Not the flag of colonial Rhodesia, but the flag of the Republic of Rhodesia, which declared itself independent in order to preserve white rule.

      Britain had demanded majority (ie including black people as equals) rule in Rhodesia, and PM Ian Smith declared independence as the Republic of Rhodesia to keep racism in place. If that doesn’t remind you of the Confederacy, then it should.

      The Rhodesian flag he had was this one: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Flag_of_Rhodesia.svg

      The actual colonial flag is this one:
      https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Flag_of_Rhodesia_%281964%29.svg

    • DrDick

      This was terrorism, pure and simple, and he is no more (or less) a “lone wolf” than most of the so-called Islamic terrorists arrested here who were “inspired by” ISIS or Al Qaeda, or whatever. He is clearly connected to and influenced by an organized white supremacist movement in this country and I am willing to bet that anybody with the stomach to wade through the filth will find his racks all over their websites.

  • Fascist Scumbag

    I predict that the Republicans in South Carolina will support giving him the death penalty while the liberals and the ACLU will once again be racist and oppose it.

    • Malaclypse

      Fuck off, Jennie.

      • Rob in CT

        As usual, dumbprints.

        • Lee Rudolph

          It’s comforting, in its way, to know that come hell or high water, Jennie will never fail to deliver the goods.

    • tsam

      What the darn-diddily-doodily did you just say about me, you little witcharooney? I’ll have you know I graduated top of my class at Springfield Bible College, and I’ve been involved in numerous secret mission trips in Capital City, and I have over 300 confirmed baptisms. I am trained in the Old Testament and I’m the top converter in the entire church mission group. You are nothing to me but just another heathen. I will cast your sins out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before in Heaven, mark my diddily-iddilly words. You think you can get away with saying that blasphemy to me over the Internet? Think again, friendarino. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of evangelists across Springfield and your IP is being traced by God right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggorino. The storm that wipes out the diddily little thing you call your life of sin. You’re going to Church, kiddily-widdily. Jesus can be anywhere, anytime, and he can turn you to the Gospel in over infinity ways, and that’s just with his bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in preaching to nonbelievers, but I have access to the entire dang- diddily Bible collection of the Springfield Bible College and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your sins away off the face of the continent, you diddily-doo satan-worshipper. If only you could have known what holy retribution your little “clever” comment was about to bring down upon you from the Heavens, maybe you would have held your darn-diddily-fundgearoo tongue. But you couldn’t, you didn’t, and now you’re clean of all your sins, you widdillo-skiddily neighborino. I will sing hymns of praise all over you and you will drown in the love of Christ. You’re farn-foodily- flank-fiddily reborn, kiddo-diddily.

      • ThrottleJockey

        Your. Best. Ever. Post.

        The only thing missing was a GIF of Ned Flanders wagging his finger.

        A Bajillion points for creativity. LMAO.

        • tsam

          I wish I could take credit for the creativity, but I can’t. I just thought it was hilarious.

          • Jordan

            Very hilarious, still was sad about missing “gorilla warfare” reference.

      • The Pale Scot

        WOW

      • Awesome, bordering on epic.

      • KmCO

        I’m currently having a love affair with the word “witcharooney.” I just thought you should know.

    • socraticsilence

      Don’t want to engage but seriously, opposing the Death Penalty is racist?!?

      • Rob in CT

        Forget it, it’s Jenny.

  • It’s been pointed out that the church is Denmark Vesey’s church and yesterday was the 193rd anniversary of Vesey’s revolt. Either Roof is better read than most of his ilk or that’s a hell of a coincidence.

    • Malaclypse

      I assume knowing what Rhodesia is makes him more well-read that your typical Stormfront PoS.

      • postmodulator

        Some of the Stormfront people are obsessively well-read on topics that they think prove their point. I commented at one point during the Ferguson thing that it was easy to spot a racist online: a racist online is a person with a weirdly encyclopedic knowledge of the Tawana Brawley case. Like, know the names of all the principals, know the evidence backwards and forwards, etc.

      • Lost Left Coaster

        I’m not sure, my first reaction to seeing that was that Rhodesia must have some kind of symbolic importance in white supremacist literature and rhetoric. This is something that is probably easily Googlable but damned if I’m going to wade into that cesspool of shit today.

        • Karen24

          “Because Zimbabwe is badly governed now, Rhodesia was a utopia” would be my guess as to how they think.

          It very disturbing to me that I was able to figure that out without going to their sources.

          • J. Otto Pohl

            More or less although this trope was being supported by some people in the US that were not white supremicists even before the 1980 transformation of Rhodesia into Zimbabwe.

        • Hogan

          White Rhodesians tended to think the whites in South Africa were a bunch of weak-kneed pansies.

          • kayden

            Weak-kneed pansies whose racist dictatorship lasted longer than that of the White Rhodesians. How ironic.

            • J. Otto Pohl

              South Africa was a Herrenvolk state not a dictatorship. That is one of the reasons it did last so long. It provided benefits to almost all, but especially the poorer members of the white population. Apartheid replaced segregation due to the Nats winning a popular election among whites in 1948.

              • kayden

                A country where only Whites get to vote and rule over the Black majority with an iron fist is not a democracy. It’s a dictatorship from the point of view of the Black majority.

                I couldn’t disagree with you more strongly. South Africa became a democracy when Blacks were allowed to vote, which was in the early 90s.

                • J. Otto Pohl

                  I didn’t say it was a democracy. I said it was a Herrenvolk state. It was not a dictatorship. How can you have a dictatorship of four million people? That is an extremely large junta. So large that of course it is not a junta. There is no way to have four million dictators. You obviously don’t understand what a Herrenvolk state is. But, the word is easy to break down. It is a state ruled by a particular ethno-racial group to the disadvantage of other such groups. That pretty well defined South Africa before 1994.

          • J. Otto Pohl

            I suspect that is because the South Africans threatened to cut off support to the Rhodesians if they did not come to a negotiated settlement. Remember whites were almost 15% of the population of South Africa during the height of apartheid. In contrast whites in Rhodesia were less than 3%. That plus the fact Rhodesia was landlocked and had far fewer resources and industry than South Africa.

        • Richard Gadsden

          Rhodesia is a white racist revolt against a wider government that was trying to insist on them treating black people as equals. If that doesn’t remind you of the Confederacy, then you’re not trying.

          Quick summary for those who don’t remember:

          Rhodesia is one of only three occasions when somewhere ruled by the British Empire has unilaterally declared themselves independent and made it stick (the other two are the USA and Ireland). But they did it in 1965 because Britain had announced NIBMAR (no independence before majority rule) and the 3% white population of Rhodesia weren’t going to stand that.

          Britain then discovered that it didn’t have the military ability to force Rhodesia to obey. Rhodesia is landlocked, and none of its neighbours was prepared to let the British army through, either because they were just as racist, like apartheid South Africa (and its colony Namibia) or Portuguese-colony Mozambique, or because recently independent black-majority republics didn’t trust the Brits.

          Rhodesia was diplomatically isolated, and faced a rebellion by the black-majority population that eventually forced PM Ian Smith to the negotiating table, and led to a black-majority Zimbabwe in 1980.

          But it was a racist rebel republic for 15 years.

      • Matty

        Unfortunately not. I’ve been getting the impression that the idea of Rhodesia’s been getting more and more important in White Supremacist circles lately. Matthew Heimbach (sp?), who was briefly notable when Vice did a half-hour documentary on his “White Student Union,” wore a t-shirt with Ian Smith’s picture on it, and if you spend more than a few minutes (which, why would you?) kicking around 4chan’s /k/ or /pol/ boards (weapons and “politics” respectively – the most outright racist parts of 4chan), or the “traditionalist” bits of Tumblr, or white supremacist Reddit, you’ll find a lot of third-hand nostalgia for the Rhodesia and fantasies about the Bush War.

        Edit: glaring typo.

        • J. Otto Pohl

          It might be because at least in Black Africa where I live and work most of the year because Zimbabwe and its leader Mugabe who has been in power since the end of Rhodesia in 1980 have been getting a lot of negative coverage recently. This isn’t new. When I lived in the UK in 2001-2004 he also got a lot of negative coverage. It seems to go in cycles. But, the fact that your average Black African outside Zimbabwe now regards Mugabe as a rather cruel joke means that the previous orthodox narrative of the national liberation struggle against White minority rule is now up for revision in a way it was not before. Had Mugabe acted like Mandela after being elected I suspect the discourse would be different.

          • wjts

            I don’t think White Supremacist nostalgia for Rhodesia is influenced in any way by the opinions of Black Africans about Mugabe.

            • Lee Rudolph

              I (being charitable) read J. Otto as adducing “the fact that [etc.]” as one piece of evidence (and one that he is peculiarly well placed to be aware of) towards the general phenomenon “that the previous orthodox narrative [etc.]”; in other words, his use of “means” in this instance of “A means B” is not meant to imply that “A causes B”, but merely something like “taking note that A is true, one can find it more easily believable that B is true”.

              • J. Otto Pohl

                Well more that there is an anti-Mugabe zeigeist and since it was Mugabe that ended Rhodesia that this opens up the way for revisionist critiques of the national liberaton struggle. I can think of some similar cases. For instance in the 1980s I remember there being a revisionist movement regarding the Vietnam War which was based in part on the poor human rights record of Vietnam and especially Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge. The SOF (see shirt cited below in thread) people were btw involved in both the Vietnam War and Rhodesia revisionism the latter while the war was still going on.

            • J. Otto Pohl

              I think it is influenced by the negative criticism of Mugabe. You don’t see nearly so much nostalgia for apartheid South Africa in part because not even Mandela’s worst enemies (the guys who put him in prison) will critiize him today. Had Mugabe been another Mandela the orthodox narrative of the national liberation movement would have had far more staying power.

              • wjts

                Possibly, but we’re (or at least I’m) talking about the relatively small group of out-and-out Stormfront-style White Supremacists who are in fact perfectly happy to criticize Mandela. Revisionist narratives of national liberation from Black Africans have about as much effect on their thinking about Rhodesia as early 20th century debates about Jewish theology had on Nazi anti-semitism.

              • kayden

                But there are White people who are nostalgic about apartheid South Africa. Just like there are American Whites who are nostalgic for the “good old days”, which equates to longing for the pre-Civil Rights era or for the even better good old days of slavery. Let’s keep it real. It has nothing to do with Mugabe or Mandela. This is about racism.

                • J. Otto Pohl

                  Even racist discourses are influenced by other outside discourses. I would find it highly surprising if the current discourse regarding Mugabe had not influenced the current revisionist thinking on Rhodesia. Certainly it did earlier in the 1980s after the massacres in Matabeleland by the North Korean trained 5th Brigade. At that time it was used not only to rehabilitate Ian Smith, but was insturmentalized to argue against the end of apartheid in the RSA.

                • wjts

                  I would find it highly surprising if the current discourse regarding Mugabe had not influenced the current revisionist thinking on Rhodesia.

                  Except there is no White Supremacist revisionist thinking on Rhodesia. White Supremacists thought White-ruled Rhodesia was great and Mugabe was a monster in 1980 and they think exactly the same things today.

                • Rob in CT

                  I’m with Otto on this: Mugabe turning out to be a total shit enables the racists. Does it make them racists? No, of course not. But at the margin, it helps. Gives ’em metaphorical ammo (the real ammo is even easier to obtain, obviously).

                • J. Otto Pohl

                  The decision to bring up Rhodesia as a talking point by White racists is cyclical. When Mugabe is in the news doing bad things like the Matabeleland massacres in the mid-1980s they emphasize it a lot more. When the popular discourse later changed to how well whites were doing in Zimbabwe under Mugabe they muted their discussion of the issue. Now that Mugabe is being criticized regularly even in the Black African press for being corrupt, incompetent, brutal, and a general joke there is a lot more discussion of Rhodesia by White racists. It is not as if racists can’t see what is covered by mainstream media.

        • wjts

          I don’t think it’s recent, though it may be getting more visible. I remember seeing ads for this t-shirt in the ’90s.

          • J. Otto Pohl

            That shirt goes back at least to the 1980s and was associated with Soldier of Fortune magazine. The founder was a Vietnam vet who became a mercenary fighting for the Rhodesian government in the late 1970s. The SOF staff were not really into the racial angle so much as they brought into the Rhodesian and South African governmentss claims that they were fighting primarily against communism. Given what happened in Angola and Mozambique in 1975 the same year that South Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos went communist this was not entirely without basis. The ANC,MK, SWAPO, and ZANU all did mouth a lot of Marxist-Leninist rhetoric in exchange for communist bloc arms back then.

            • Lee Rudolph

              The eternal Thompson gunner still wandering through the night, now it’s ten years later but he still keeps up the fight in Ireland, in Lebanon, in Palestine and Berkeley, Patty Hearst heard the burst of Roland’s Thompson gun and bought it.

            • wjts

              Yeah, good point.

          • Matty

            Yeah, “recent” was probably not the right word. “Shockingly popular with white supremacists born after the end of Rhodesia’s existence” is more what I was going for.

        • Ktotwf

          I know Matthew Heimbach, as he is a coworker of mine who has explained his ”views” to me at length. I didn’t realize he was famous though.

    • osceola

      The Denmark Vesey angle is pretty cool. I read about his revolt 25-30 years ago in grad school.

    • ThrottleJockey

      IT might have been well covered by the Charleston media, since its on the National Register of Historic places. Wouldn’t make him anymore well read than the Forsythe County racist schmuck who knows MLK was an Atlanta preacher.

    • socraticsilence

      But. but… but.. its a mystery what could have influenced him and what his motives could be!?!

    • Just_Dropping_By

      You do realize, right, that there’s just a 1-in-365 chance of any new event randomly happening on the anniversary of any given historical event? This was a racist hate crime and act of domestic terrorism to be sure, but claiming that it has anything to do with the anniversary of the Vesey uprising (because, seriously, who knows that date off the top of their head?), without some actual evidence that this guy planned the attack to happen on that particular date, is close to tinfoil hat territory.

      • You need to work on your understanding of probability. It’s not the 1/365 chance of it happening on the anniversary of Vesey’s revolt: it happened on that day at a building directly connected with the event.

        Also, seriously, who knows that date? Maybe a racist who’s obsessed with the topic, as a I said.

      • ajay

        I am never quite sure how seriously to take the argument that the 2001 attacks happened on September 11 because it was the anniversary of the Battle of Vienna in 1683 (the defeat of the Ottoman Empire by the Holy League, and the end of a thousand years of armed Muslim expansion).

  • Fascist Scumbag

    Most Aryan Nation type are pagan, yet another consequence of post-Christian America. Are you secularists happy yet?

    • MeDrewNotYou

      I LOLed.

    • Ahenobarbus

      His MySpace page apparently links to a Christian Heavy Metal band (from Slate).

      • NonyNony

        He has a MySpace page?

        MySpace still exists?

      • wca

        a Christian Heavy Metal band

        What is “the most pathetic thing I have ever heard”?

        • MeDrewNotYou

          “You’re not making Christianity better, you’re just making rock and roll worse.” -Hank Hill, “Reborn to be Wild”

        • Ktotwf

          Christian Black Metal is much, much worse.

          • Lost Left Coaster

            And even worse than that is that Christian “black metal” is often referred to as white metal. Ugh.

            • What makes that so great is that traditionally “black metal” is iron and “white metal” is lead. And these guys love their tradition.

              • tsam

                Lead because HEAVY FUCKIN METAL, MAN. ROCK HARD, RIDE FREE.

          • NonyNony

            Christian Black Metal is almost enough evidence to get me to believe in a god.

            And that god is Loki.

            • Malaclypse

              Azathoth, the Blind Idiot God.

    • matt w

      Jennie, on this of all occasions can you find it in your heart to fuck off?

      • KmCO

        In all honesty what the troll is saying is just barely exaggerated on how Fox is spinning the massacre.

    • tsam

      BE IT BREAKFAST, BRUNCH OR BED AND BE YOU A BAREFOOT BURGLAR, BRITISH BANKER OR BEDFAST BOOKMAKER A BASIC BESTIAL BLESSING IS THE BURGER! A BILLION BURGER BANQUET BEQUETH UPON ME FROM A BURGER BASTION OF BEDLAM BARELY BEGINS TO BOIL MY BULKY BURGER BURDEN. YET I MUST BARE BULBOUS BEGGERS BESEECHING BURGERS TO BUILD UPON THEIR BIG BAGGAGE WHILE BREEDING BARBARICALLY. BUT BEFORE THE BURGER BANQUET A BETTER BEGINNING IS OBLIGED. YOU MAY CALL ME BURGER KING.

    • DrDick

      Actually, they are mostly devout conservative Christians, just like you.

  • Malaclypse

    The heart and soul of South Carolina was broken,” said Nikki Haley, while standing underneath the Confederate TIDOS flag, clearly neither knowing nor caring what the heart and soul of South Carolina actually is.

    • ThrottleJockey

      That flag is the heart & sould of S. Carolina. At least racist white S. Carolina.

    • joe from Lowell

      we do know that we’ll never understand what motivates anyone to enter one of our places of worship and take the life of another.

      – Nikki Haley

      Don’t look up, Governor! Don’t look up!

    • Warren Terra

      while standing underneath the Confederate TIDOS flag

      Apparently the only flag outside the state house that’s not at half mast.

      • Richard Gadsden

        The State Legislature has required, by law, that this flag cannot be lowered below 30 feet.

        The only way to get it at half-mast would be to get a bigger flagpole.

  • c u n d gulag

    You have to be one evil and cold-hearted SOB to sit with people in their church, and then shoot 9 of them to death.

    Say what you will about the CO movie theater and the CT school mass murderers, but they didn’t sit for an hour with the people they killed, looked them in the eye, and then blew them away.

    All of them are evil, but the anonymous killings didn’t have that ‘personal touch.’
    __________________________________________________

    As for our conservative “Christians” and those Yeshiva students who burned down that church – since now Pope Francis is turning into ‘persona non grata’ because of his upcoming Encyclical about global warming, they can’t condemn those sociopathic Jewish religious morons in their beloved Israel too much, because they’re already liable to lose the support of some (many?) Catholics, by criticizing the Pope.

    And what will they do if Rush and FOX start criticizing Israeli’s for attacks on the Christians? If they do, won’t the GOP risk losing some pro-Israel Evangelicals? *

    They won’t know what to do, since the meme is that only Muslims and secular Libtards attack Christianity!

    *Don’ worry.
    They won’t.

    Rush and FOX have created the templates for all conservatives in any and every situation – and all those sociopathic/psychopathic “Christian” conservative dim/nit/half/f*ck-wits in the GOP base need to do, is fill in the blanks.

    As Steve M. showed, they have already figured out a way to blame the SC terrorist slaughter and laid it at the feet of Obama and the liberals:
    http://nomoremister.blogspot.com/2015/06/charleston-shooting-brings-out-worst-in.html

    Somehow or other, the “Christian” base will find a way to do the same thing regarding the burning of that church in Israel.

    They just caught the “lone-wolf” white suspect in NC.
    GOOD!
    I’m against the death penalty.
    Now, it’s time to analyze what made this loon do the psychopathic thing that he did!

    But, you see, he’s not a terrorist.
    He’s a lone-wolf!

    Minority thugs travel in packs/gangs – armed or unarmed – and coordinate attacks.

    May I suggest that his family, who got him this gun for his most recent birthday – at least according to the stories that I’ve read – be charged as accomplices?

    According to Ed Kilgore at WaMo, the suspect ‘posed on his Facebook page (see one of the images above) with flag patches from Apartheid-era South Africa and the racist Rhodesian regime that governed what is now Zimbabwe.”
    http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/political-animal-a/2015_06/you_rape_our_women_and_youre_t056156.php

    No tip-off for the family there, eh?
    Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh………………………………..

    It’s going to be very hard, after his saying about black people “You rape our women and you’re taking our country… You have to go…” for Rush and FOX and the rest of the Reich-Wing @$$holes in this country, to blame President Obama and the Libtard’s for this white-supremacist’s TERRORIST attack!!!

    • libarbarian

      OF COURSE they are going to rightly point out that this really is the fault of Obama & the Democrats and their love of “gun control”. If the black people had been armed, those 9 people would never have been shot by that whacked-out lone gunman. They would have been shot by the police, in accordance with the natural order of things.

      /snark

      • Ahuitzotl

        I have already heard that, on CNN, delivered straightfaced – well, bar the last sentence (I was too busy puking to note who it was uttering that gibberish)

    • Just_Dropping_By

      Say what you will about the CO movie theater and the CT school mass murderers, but they didn’t sit for an hour with the people they killed, looked them in the eye, and then blew them away.

      I’m not sure why you’d pick James Holmes to use as an example there. He was in the theater for at least 20 minutes (news accounts say he left 20 minutes into the film to go get his weapons and equipment), and probably closer to 40 minutes or more (assuming he bought the ticket shortly before the advertised start time for the film — I can’t find anything that says when he bought the ticket, but none of the news accounts say he went into the theater late).

      • Lee Rudolph

        “Sitting with” people in a darkened movie theater is rather different than “sitting with” people in an intimate Bible study group. And looking people in the eye in a darkened movie theater would be both difficult and very, very weird. I think our gulagenous colleague has the right of it.

        • Hogan

          From what I read it was somewhere in between. There was a staff/volunteer meeting to plan an event (not prayer or Bible study) at the front of the church, and Root came in and sat at the back. When the meeting ended the pastor invited him forward, and Root went up, said his piece, and did his business.

  • osceola

    Has Alex Jones blamed this on a government false flag operation masterminded by Obama and George Soros yet?

    • SC flies the confederate flag, which is a false one if ever there was.

      • Richard Gadsden

        I want a “like” button, dammit.

    • postmodulator

      Someone on my Facebook page said that the false flag stuff had started, but I can’t find the reference now. Not Alex Jones, another similar source though.

      • I am given to believe that it was Mikey Adams, right-wing alt-health scammer.

        • Lee Rudolph

          alt-health scammer

          But you repeat yourself.

          • Warren Terra

            I believe some alt-health types are sincere in their nonsense, while others are cynically and deliberately taking advantage of others. Doesn’t make the former category laudable, but they’re not so vile as the latter.

    • MeDrewNotYou

      Will this finally be how Obama grabs our guns? The suspense is killing me.

    • Warren Terra

      I haven’t seen this (not that I’ve looked) but apparently the new Fox News party line, being parroted by some candidates for the R nomination, is that this was an attack on Christianity, not on African Americans.

  • Ahenobarbus

    A quote from a former classmate, from The Daily Mail:

    ‘I never heard him [Dylan Roof] say anything, but just he had that kind of Southern pride, I guess some would say. Strong conservative beliefs,’ he said. ‘He made a lot of racist jokes, but you don’t really take them seriously like that. You don’t really think of it like that.’

    • IM

      southern pride – subtext becoming text.

    • Rob in CT

      Contradicting oneself instantly, now that’s skill.

      • Lost Left Coaster

        Shorter former classmate: “He wasn’t racist, except for the usual.”

        Not much of a defense his friend was putting up there.

        • Rob in CT

          Pretty damning of the culture, actually. I wonder if the classmate realizes just how damning.

          • wca

            It’s the Southern politeness thing. The guy being interviewed doesn’t want to just come out and say “Yeah, that Roof guy was a huge flaming racist.” So we get euphemisms instead. We all know what “Southern Pride” and “Strong conservative beliefs” are referring to.

            • kayden

              Or maybe the guy being interviewed is racist too and thus wasn’t bothered by Roof’s racism.

              • Rob in CT

                That’s my take.

              • wca

                That’s certainly a possibility, because there are quite a few out-and-proud racists in these parts.

                I still think that if he’s as big a racist as his old schoolmate, he’s more likely to have just said “I didn’t notice anything particularly odd about him” and not mention the racist jokes or use the phrase “strong conservative beliefs” at all.

            • SgtGymBunny

              Well, let’s look at why certain bystanders would use euphemisms instead: because they are probably sympathetic to those feelings of “Southern Pride” and “Strong Conservative Beliefs”. Southern politeness, my foot! If upon hearing a racist joke, someone decides “Oh, that’s not serious” that someone is just as bad as the racist.

              • Rob in CT

                I have an acquaintance who has tossed off some racist shit. I’ve pushed back sometimes, and sometimes not (sometimes I’m just plain caught off guard and am verbally flat-footed). AFAIK he is not armed nor dangerous (middle aged, generally happy, kids, etc). I don’t think I’m enabling a potential spree killer here.

                I do think I sometimes humor a bigot more than I should. The next time I hear “I’m not racist, but…” leave his mouth, I intend to shut him right the fuck down.

                • SgtGymBunny

                  Yeah, I can understand most people going for the harmless-crochety-dude interpretation. Because, thankfully, they are more undercover racists in this country than there are DSRs.

                  But I don’t take exception with folks who think to themselves–without saying out loud–This dude is a fucking racist pig. With certain folks, confronting them really ain’t worth the time or the spike in blood pressure.

                  But just going, Eh, that’s not serious , that’s just inexcusable.

                • Rob in CT

                  Right. I know this friend (acquaintance is not really honest. Friend) of mine is a bigot. He is.

                  We were friends with his wife first. I’m mostly ok w/him, but that’s the bit that rubs me the wrong way. But we like his wife and kids and the bigot in him comes out a couple times a year. You know?

                  Still, I do intend to just tell him to own up to his bigotry the next time he tries that shit (which he often throws out to me when his wife isn’t there to hear it, which I think is quite deliberate). Why he does this, knowing full well I’m a liberal democrat is beyond me (as he’s actually not at all the “shit stirrer trying to get a rise out of you haha” kind of guy at all).

                • SgtGymBunny

                  Maybe he thinks there’s something cozy and intimate about getting all racial with a fellow white guy. I guess it’s the equivalent of butt-naked locker room chats.

                  I always hear that certain white males let their freak flags fly when out of range of coloreds, women and gays. I’m just speculating. Being a black chick, naturally (thankfully?), I am not privy to either racist or butt-naked locker room chats.

                • Rob in CT

                  Actually, yes, I think that must be it.

                  Nothing else really makes any sense.

              • Pat

                Am I the only one who wonders if the guy saying “It’s a Southern Pride thing” has the self-awareness to be offended at himself?

                And, what, strong conservative? Let me guess – called himself “pro-life,” right?

    • MeDrewNotYou

      ‘He made a lot of racist jokes, but you don’t really take them seriously like that. You don’t really think of it like that.’

      Just because he made racist jokes and considers treason in defense of slavery to be a noble act doesn’t mean he personally is racist. There liberals go, playing the race card again.

      I await defenders to dredge up a photo of him with one black guy in the background and claim him as his black friend.

      • Ahenobarbus

        His Facebook page shows lots of black “friends.” I don’t think it’s clear that he knew any of them in real life, though, or even interacted with them. But he did seem to friend a lot of African-Americans on FB.

        And Conservatives are already claiming this proves race wasn’t a motive.

        • MeDrewNotYou

          Damn. I didn’t mean that seriously. I really should’ve known better, considering who we’re dealing with.

          • Joe Bob the III

            In seriousness though – real racists with black friends is something you see all the time. Their default views are prejudiced, but individuals are allowed to prove themselves.

            In other words: “Bob’s black – but he’s okay.”

            • Hogan

              One of the good ones.

              • Rob in CT

                I actually saw that in action one time. It was amazing. Party full of white people. One token black dude. Host spouts off some racist shit, and then points to token guy and says something like “he knows what I mean” and “he’s ok” or somesuch. The guy took it.

                I don’t hang out with them anymore…

            • KmCO

              When I was attending my lily-white, conservative high school, there was a black girl who joined my class midway through freshman year. She was very sweet, highly intelligent, and a self-described book worm. One of my friends, who had a racist streak, took up a friendship with her. I inquired about this, as this friend had once said that she didn’t want to be “mean,” but she didn’t really like black people. She replied that “I don’t really think of New Girl as a black person.” I remember having such a hard time processing this statement that I was stunned into silence.

              • J. Otto Pohl

                Race is a constructed category and individual exceptions have always been made by individual racists. Even some Nazi Party members had individual Jews they considered to be not like other Jews. So I don’t find it at all surprising that somebody could hate black people in general, but make an exception for one individual black person who they did not really consider black. In fact this is quite common.

                • SgtGymBunny

                  I think the ugly part of the exception logic is that racist don’t take their good experience with one black person to be a contradiction to their racist views. They don’t go, “Hey, maybe blacks aren’t that bad after all. Maybe I should meet up with her family and friends to see if they’re swell folks, too?”

                  They think, “You’re not like those black people” when they really should be thinking “Those black people are just like you“.

                  Would not the world be a much better place…

                  I’m gonna go sit in a corner and cry now.

                • KmCO

                  I know it’s common, Otto. I was 15 at the time, though. And just because it’s common doesn’t make it any less racist.

        • NonyNony

          Man if I were any of those “Facebook friends” of his I’d be worried – was he friending them to stalk them? Is it going to turn out that some of them belonged to the church he shot up? Or other churches in the area?

        • Lost Left Coaster

          Considering what he did, the fact that he friended a lot of black people on Facebook is beyond creepy — it likely was part of his planning process for this or another crime. Who knows what else he was thinking about doing.

          Frankly, if people are going to use this as evidence that he wasn’t racist, they might as well claim that he wasn’t racist because he once attended Bible study at a historically black church in Charleston.

          • Pat

            He probably was. Since he lived on his computer, it no doubt is full of evidence of his thought processes, either in notes to himself or instant messages to others.

            • Lost Left Coaster

              The police will be combing through, I am sure. It doesn’t seem like he would have covered his tracks well, considering that his getaway plan was to drive his car to North Carolina. Not a master criminal by any means.

      • Hogan

        It’s getting so a white man can’t walk into a historic black church, yell “You rape our women, and you’re taking over our country, and you have to go,” and gun down nine people without the Left dragging race into it.

        • BigHank53

          Heavy is the yoke of political correctness.

    • keta

      Former classmate has a future with the SCOTUS, I see.

    • tsam

      ‘He made a lot of racist jokes, but you don’t really take them seriously like that. You don’t really think of it like that.’

      YOU GODDAMN WELL BETTER START TAKING THIS SHIT SERIOUSLY.

      Fuck–you know when a guy is fixated on a bigotry, that’s a rather obvious marker that shit can get nasty and real in a big hurry.

      Also, you fucking Southern Pride motherfuckers can all go to hell and die. You have exactly NOTHING to be proud of. Fuck off. Nobody loves you and you should all commit suicide today or sooner.

    • Joe Bob the III

      Southern pride = You haven’t done much to be proud of, but at least you’re white.

      • BigHank53

        It’s very Southern to claim credit for something that other people accomplished before you were even born.

        • Rob in CT

          It’s such a curse, really. Having to care deeply about your ancestors. No matter who you are, some of them are going to turn out to have been assholes and then there you are having to defend/deny it. WHY?

          It has always puzzled me.

          • jim, some guy in iowa

            I prefer to think of my ancestors being chased out of the old countries a skip and a jump ahead of the bill collectors, sheriffs, and angry parents

            • Evading the Prussian draft, for me.
              That FECKIN BISMARCK. We will NEVER FORGIVE.

              • jim, some guy in iowa

                next time I use that line, “draft board” is going into the list

              • Warren Terra

                The Prussian draft? Pikers. A lot of Jews fled the Tsar’s Russia to avoid a mandatory twenty-year stint.

              • JR in WV

                One of my good friends evaded the draft into the US Army back in the Viet-Nam war era by seeing a shrink a number of times, when they provided a diagnosis of “Too crazy for the Army!”

                His grandfather came to America to avoid the Czar’s draft for the Russo-Japanese war of 1906 (or so?). I’m not sure if his Dad and Uncles fought in WW II or not, but for sure none of them thought it was a bad thing to avoid going to Nam back in the draft days of 1969-70.

                • sparks

                  My father fought in WWI as a foreign soldier for the US. He was adamant that we neither enlist nor get drafted and go to Vietnam. Fortunately, the draft ended years before we became eligible.

      • Richard Gadsden

        Martin Luther King was Southern. That’s the only sort of Southern pride I’d be getting on board with.

        • That and bourbon.

          • Lee Rudolph

            Bourbon is from a Border State.

            I have no idea where Southern Comfort is from.

  • Joe_JP

    SCOTUS today allowed a state not to give a Confederate group a vanity license plate since license plates are government speech.

    Tricky case. Either way, maybe, South Carolina can take down that Confederate flag from its statehouse.

    • wca

      That’s interesting. So what happens to all the Jesus/God plates now?

      • Joe_JP

        Free speech case so concern for favoring religion not quite the same, but government already allowed to favor God (“In God We Trust). A religious vanity plate chosen by the driver probably wouldn’t be seen as an endorsement of religion but the government couldn’t only give out Jesus plates.

    • kayden

      I believe the state in that case was Texas.

      • Joe_JP

        Yes. Did not mean to imply it was S.C.

  • tsam

    I stalked this kid’s Facebook because I’m creepy like that. Nothing to reveal.

    • Malaclypse

      There’s also a “Justice for [Nameless Bastard]” page up already. I assume the fundraiser will take until tomorrow.

  • Linnaeus

    From one of the Post-Courier articles:

    in one of the most deadly church shootings in U.S. history.

    The fact that that statement requires the qualifier “one of” is very, very sad.

    • SgtGymBunny

      Not to mention that we even have sub-catagories for mass shootings:
      Church shootings (with additional categories for minority faiths temples/synagogues/etc.)
      School shootings (with additional categories for college/high school/elementary/pre-school)
      Mall/Store Shootings
      Theater Shootings
      Work-place Shootings
      Shooting with the most dead children
      Shooting with the most dead people
      etc., etc., etc…

      This country is fucking nuts…

      • jim, some guy in iowa

        what’s weird is that it isn’t the *country* that’s nuts. People are generally in favor of gun control. I keep reading that fewer and fewer people are owning more and more guns. But the country *is* letting itself get bullied by gun nuts

        • wca

          … and yet all you’ll hear is how our second amendment “rights” are under assault, and how victimized the poor gun nuts feel because people don’t like them carrying their loaded AR-15s into restaurants.

          • Ktotwf

            Short of a total rewrite of the constitution or a second Civil War, I don’t see a viable road to meaningful gun control in the US.

        • SgtGymBunny

          By why are we letting the gun nuts bully us???? What the hell do we have to do to get some civil gun control laws in this damn country? (Short of a re-write of the constitution or a second civil war, that is?)

          Shit, we can get rid slavery (albeit with a civil war); we can get civil rights to racial/ethnic minorities; we got Social Security/Medicare/Medicaid/Obamacare and now we can get same-sex marriages recognized. And there was (still is) significant division among Americans when those issues came down. But if pro-gun control is the overwhelming majority of Americans, what is really stopping us???

          Pardon me… I’m just in the throws of despair

          • BigHank53

            Like anyone with a fetish, the gun nuts care a lot about their fetish objects. And they’ve been listening to Wayne LaPierre for a long, long time. They’re entirely invested in his worldview, where godless commies and traitors are threatening to betray the ideals of the founding fathers 24/7. By now they’re fully trained to donate money and deluge elected officials with threats to vote for opponents on command. It’s a tiny minority, but very loud.

          • Rob in CT

            Because, generally speaking, Yeats was right: the worst are full of passionate intensity and the best lack all conviction…

            At least on that issue. Support for stricter gun control is a mile wide and an inch deep (and, honestly, because people aren’t really that interested in it, the proposals often suck: e.g. focusing on assualt rifles when hand guns, like the one used in this attack, are nearly the entire problem). Support for a personal right to unrestricted weaponry, on the other hand, is narrower but deep as all hell.

            Also, the Second Amendment, as written, really does back them up. More liberal judges on SCOTUS would help here, but IMO the real fix is repeal & replacement of the 2nd. And hoooooboy, is that a heavy lift.

            Re: bullying, it’s is part of the program. That’s what “an armed society is a polite society” actually means. The unarmed will have to be nice and quiet while gun nuts do whatever because otherwise they might shoot you.

            • Richard Gadsden

              Yup. You need to do a lot of gun-control to get at mass shootings. You can – they’re mostly done by people with legal guns – but it’s damned difficult. Look how tight the UK and Australia have had to go (the last mass shooting in the UK was Dunblane, in 1996).

              You’d have to twist the second amendment into a pretzel to get there. No, you have to amend the constitution. And pro-gun-control people will mostly not go that far, and the ones that will are never going to have the votes.

              • Rob in CT

                Yeah, I most agree.

                I do think significant progress can be made with the 2nd as-is (though this does require a different SCOTUS makeup). Spree killings are a tiny % of the overall gun violence problem. There are things than can be done and I think squared with the 2nd w/o pretzel logic that would tamp down on the regular ‘ole day to day drumbeat of gun violence.

                Though in this particular case, it appears the killer had a criminal record. A recent issue, too, not something long ago (how could it be, he was so young). In a more reasonable USofA, that should’ve prevented him from legally acquiring a gun. Even with the 2nd, as written, IMO.

                Adam Lanza, on the other hand, is a tougher nut to crack.

              • You’d have to twist the second amendment into a pretzel to get there. No, you have to amend the constitution.

                Would you? (Question, not rhetoric on my part.) What about a SC decision (I can dream) that enforces the “well-regulated militia” and that therefore guts a personal right to own and carry guns?

                • Hogan

                  Or (say) requires every able-bodied man and woman between 18 and 45 to report for eight hours of mandatory training every month, which might be marksmanship, might be PT, might be SERE, who knows.

                • Hogan – Now that’s a way to reduce the surplus population.

            • LWA

              I’m now advocating that we start a campaign to repeal the 2nd Amendment.

              No of course it won’t happen anytime soon.
              But like any long campaign we start by demanding that the status quo be defended and justified, not merely accepted.

              Then we get people to imagine a different future, one where guns are a highly regulated privilege like driving.

              I refuse to cede the ground by starting off every gun discussion with “Of course we don’t want to take your guns…”

              Instead I start by “I wish a mutherfucker would!”

              • Richard Gadsden

                After Hungerford and Dunblane we damned well did come and take their guns. You want a (break-open) shotgun license: sure (though you’ll have to prove you store it securely). Want a licence for a hand-load long-arm (rifle) without a magazine: convince a senior police officer you have a good reason. Anything else, no such thing as a civilian license – armed police officers and members of the military, and only on-duty.

                We had to pass a special law allowing civilians to use handguns for the Olympic competitors in 2012. The shooting events were held on a military base. The actual guns had to be handed to the British military at a facility outside the UK, were then shipped through military channels to the event location. The competitors then had to travel to the event location where they were reunited with their guns. After the event, the guns were then shipped back out of the country by the military, and the competitors then collected them. That’s real gun control.

  • I looked at the excellent article Scott linked to in the Charleston paper. Then I looked at the comments (I know, I know). Most were appropriate. But the ones that weren’t — good Lord. There are some sick, racist people out there. And more than a few of them have guns.

    • Lee Rudolph

      There are some sick, racist people out there. And more than a few of them have guns.

      I believe that it is equally true that there are some sick people with guns out there, and more than a few of them are racist.

      That is: there are a lot of people in each group, AND the overlap is a large proportion of each group.

      • Owlbear1

        Self-righteous ignorance and arrogant cowardice all the way down.

      • Malaclypse

        Let’s just say that the Venn diagram is just barely not perfectly spherical.

  • wengler

    I’m not surprised that this happened, I’m only surprised that it hasn’t happened more often. Of course the last white supremacist massacre at a church was this one nearly three years ago in Wisconsin.

    This is a also a reminder that Republicans in Congress have repeatedly stifled attempts by federal authorities to investigate rightwing terrorist groups, which have been proven to be the biggest domestic terrorist threat in this country.

    • Ktotwf

      Does the US use even a fraction of its counter-terrorism budget to keep White Supremacist/Survivalists in check?

      • jim, some guy in iowa

        more like pay the salaries of the white supremacists in Congress

      • joe from Lowell

        Sure it does. Remember those Hutatree kooks they infiltrated in Michigan?

        Even J. Edgar went after the Klan.

        The problem is, there’s so many of these bastards.

        • Barry Freed

          No it doesn’t really. Remember that DHS report on right wing extremism that got all the Fox news types in an uproar? The upshot was that program was defunded.

          http://www.wired.com/2012/08/dhs/

          • joe from Lowell

            So, therefore, the Hutatree bust didn’t happen?

            Does the US use even a fraction of its counter-terrorism budget to keep White Supremacist/Survivalists in check?

            The answer to this question is “Yes.”

            “But but but the DHS pulled a report that one time” does not make the answer to that question “No.”

          • joe from Lowell

            Your’e story is out of date.

            The FBI has released a number of domestic terrorism threat reports since them. They highlight sovereign citizens, patriot groups, and other right-wing organizations.

  • Ktotwf

    I can’t be the only one who thinks he looks like a deranged medieval monk?

    • Joe Bob the III

      I was thinking that if he wanted to avoid capture he should have done something about his distinctive bowl cut.

    • wjts

      Guy Gardner was my first thought.

      • Just_Dropping_By

        I love you (in a completely platonic way) for thinking of Guy Gardner when you see somebody with a bowl cut.

  • Joe Bob the III

    They should lower the Confederate flag over the statehouse to half-staff in honor of the victims.

    • Roger Ailes

      And then douse it with gasoline and torch it.

      • Lee Rudolph

        Which, the flag or the statehouse?

    • BigHank53

      Until that day, this is a real product.

  • tsam

    The little piece of shit has been CAPTURED.

    • SgtGymBunny

      I’m giving my home state of North Carolina exactly 1 cool point for getting that little shit. This episode should remind us that we used to be objectively better than our South-of-the-Border neighbors.

      (No offense to any South Carolinians. I used to give people the stink-eye if they mistakenly said I was from SC. I don’t bother any more. Because who gives a damn–NC is on the exit ramp to batshit anyways.)

      • tsam

        I don’t think NC is still flying the shit tier flag at their state capitol anymore, are they?

  • Owlbear1

    Can’t wait for Megyn Kelly’s interview of Roof’s parents.

    • Rob in CT

      How about Roof himself? They captured the shitstain alive (and uninjured, I believe). Send her to visit him in jail. Ratings gold!

      • Ktotwf

        Funny how he was captured alive.

        • Owlbear1

          Definitely not the usual ending of an “anti-christian” terrorist.

        • Rob in CT

          It is, isn’t it. Funny.

          • KmCO

            It was my first thought when I woke up to the news.

            • Lee Rudolph

              I was, however, both glad and somewhat surprised to hear it.

        • Hogan

          It’s not like he was jaywalking or something.

        • ScottRS

          It’s not like he was selling loose cigarettes, or carrying Skittles.

          • sparks

            Or running. Or talking on a cellphone. Or face down on the pavement with hands and legs spread.

    • KmCO

      Sarah Palin will then commence excoriating anyone to the left of Pinochet for saying mean things about them.

  • D.N. Nation

    Take down that goddamn flag and take it down now.

    • Malaclypse

      And then burn it, and shit on the ashes.

      • KmCO

        I advocate shitting first and then burning.

        • wca

          Why not both?

          • tsam

            If I can do the burning and you do the shitting, we cool.

            • Rob in CT

              That’s flag’s lost all its US privileges, dig?

              • tsam

                Oh I dig, brother. I dig.

            • wca

              I shit, I burn, I shit again!

              • Lee Rudolph

                Worst. Emerson. Adaptation. Evah!

              • njorl

                Try Preparation H.

                • tsam

                  HA! Grody and funny!

        • Shit, wrap, leave on doorstep, then burn.

        • Origami Isopod

          I liked the commenter on dK who suggested letting their dog scoot his ass on it.

  • Malaclypse

    I asked myself: who on the interwebs will say the stupidest thing? And once I asked the question, I knew the answer.

    Shorter Donalde: dude had a fag haircut, therefore he’s a liberal. Also, Robert Byrd.

  • Picayune Paul

    The recent move by the ABA and medical associations representing most doctors in the country to make gun violence (and by extension gun ownership) a public health concern seems like the way forward. The same approach worked for tobacco. And, as in the case of tobacco, control can be exerted gradually by taxation, litigation and efforts to reduce the number of retail outlets. Guns have a special vulnerability since ammunition is a sacrificial item with a relatively long, but limited storage life.

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