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Truly a lovely sight it is. I think perhaps they should stay indoors or else, with all the frothing at the mouth, Animal Control might impound them as rabid dogs.
The rabid dog delegation demands you take that back right now.
Nah, perhaps they should introduce that wonderful institution of the colonial administration in southern Africa known, I believe, as the “tie up day”. Let’s face it a multitude of rabid republicans would be far better sport than a few mangy dogs.
They paid good money for that Supreme Court.
FTFY
But Robert Byrd was a Democrat! And Hugo Black was a lifetime Grand Wizard of the KKK, and the fact that he was one of Brown’s strongest defenders is central to my point!
And don’t forget the Liberal Plantation.
I won’t know what to think until I see what Rick Venema of COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VA, who is not a crackpot, has to say.
I feel that COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VA is the next internet tradition to come out of LGM. It’s all very exciting.
I understand it has the biggest climate controlled mall between Rocky Mount and some other shithole.
Richmond, which, relatively speaking, is not a shithole.
Richmond used to be a great city fifty years ago. No it is a city filled to the brim with “art” and “theater” college students (and other liberal college brats, studying useless subjects with other people’s money), hip-hop thugs, welfare queens, homosexuals, marijuana smokers, intellectual marxists, drunks, atheists, and other reprobate trash.
That’s what decades of Democrat and liberal urban rule gets you.
Rick Venema
COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VIRGINIA
The way you describe Richmond makes it sound pretty awesome.
Yes, that was central to my point, at least, maybe not Mr. Venema’s, though.
Richmond has become a university town in the last 15 years, and also a magnet for gay gentrifies. Of course Ricky Enema hates it.
Really. That sounds like a place I might actually like to visit, unlike some suburban shithole with a third rate mall.
The way you describe Richmond makes it sound pretty awesome.
As a gay man, I can tell you it’s got some attractiveness…
Subtext remaining text with you, Jennie dear. You are no Rick Venema of COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VIRGINIA.
That wasn’t me.
Poor Jennie. He thinks he’s clever.
Yeah, well, Lowell has canals, too.
I’ve only been six of the things on Rick Venema of COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VIRGINIA’s list. I need to get out more.
Malaclypse
NOT SOME FUCKING SHITHOLE WITH A FUCKING BIG ARBYS, NO FUCKING WAY WILL I LIVE IN THAT CESSPOOL WITH RICK VENEMA, CRACKER.
It’s like dadaist art. The welfare queens bit was especially fun, a nice little nostalgia trip back to pre-1996.
it is a city filled to the brim with “art” and “theater” college students (and other liberal college brats, studying useless subjects with other people’s money), hip-hop thugs, welfare queens, homosexuals, marijuana smokers, intellectual marxists, drunks, atheists, and other reprobate trash.
That’s what decades of Democrat and liberal urban rule gets you.
Democrats create interesting places to live? Good to know…
Malaclypse
FUCKING TAXACHUSETTSTAN
Ummmm….I call GAY
That’s because you’re obsessed, Jennie dear.
Sounds like College Park, which is a bit of a hole — that’s why I live the next county over and just head to CP when I want to have meaningless sex with a hippie 19-year-old.
Zach
SILVER SPRING, MARYLAND
College Park is a shithole. Richmond, from what I’ve heard, is an actual interesting place.
Hey, you take that back! College Park is a livable community. Says so right on the sign!
Sargon
COLLEGE PARK, MARYLAND
And only on the sign!
Bijan Parsia
MANCHESTER, UK; FORMERLY OF COLLEGE PARK, MARYLAND
College Park is just a 2 block perimeter around U of Md. of off campus housing, and a few bars and lousy takeout.
Its not a real college town per se. Its draw is close proximity to DC and Baltimore.
That being said, Go Terps!!
Spuddie
EDISON, NEW JERSEY BOYYYYYY!
College Park is just a 2 block perimeter around U of Md. of off campus housing, and a few bars and lousy takeout.
Its not a real college town per se. Its draw is close proximity to DC and Baltimore.
True, but at least Silver Spring is on the Red Line.
Zach
SILVER SPRING, MARYLAND
Rare to meet someone proud to be from Edison.
elm
BORN SOMEWHERE ELSE IN MIDDLESEX COUNTY, NJ
I understand College Park is a great place to riot when Maryland loses to Duke. Terps suck.
True, but its all relative. It is the new internet tradition to put your locale in all caps. I am not as much from there, as exiled to there.
The city is fairly commutable to NYC, has affordable homes and a plethora of Asian cuisine choices on US 1 and Rt 27.
Plus its still better than admitting you are from a sundown town famous for a big arbys and redneck assholes.
Delurking here to comment. I was as excited about this whole COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VIRGINIA thing as anyone, but this is a dead certain giveaway we’re being trolled. Gay theater students? Welfare queens? Marxists? Come on, guys.
I dunno if it matters at this point. Conservatives are impossible to parody these days.
I don’t think this is Our Rick. Besides the content you cite, “reprobate” also sounds off. And stylistically he doesn’t just list terms like that.
does DougJ troll LGM. makes my head spin thinking about it.
No, wingnuts actually talk like this.
Read some Rick Perlstein – these people are still fighting the 60′s culture wars. It’s not over for them.
Well, as yesterday’s opinions illustrate, they are still fighting the 30s.
a few are still fighting against taming fire and making the wheel
Uggh, Caveman
The Future Site of
American Fork, UT
Excellent trolling, but I think you might have tipped your hand there.
Cool. I’ve always wanted to live in a city with a brim.
Whatever happened to all the dubstep thugs, welfare kings, intellectual Trotskyists, etc.?
Heh, this is really dougj from balloon juice, isn’t it?
Damn, the way you describe it I’m surprised the city hasn’t imposed a tax on all the people lined up at the city limits to move there.
Did you post this before or after I took pictures of you getting pounded in the ass by a coke snorting homosexual activist college student on welfare? You look great in French Maid lingerie and stiletto heels.
Impeach Zombie Earl Warren!
So you missed Kelo, then? BTW, did you mean conservative Democrats? Because, you know…
I’m very surprised by the righty-wing meltdown. Is it because they never considered losing this one?
On Chris Matthews, Bob Shrum said they were doing this to energize their base, but that’s not what it looks and sounds like.
I wonder how Boehner, his staff, or whoever thought of it feel about the ‘don’t spike the ball’ memo now. I would like to have a copy of it.
Yes, it’s like Leon Lett, if Lett were stripped of the ball while in the anticipatory motion of tossing it to the ref in a dramatically undramatic way.
Rove cost W the election (though, lamentably, not the selection) in 2000 with this kind of fake braggadocio bullshit, i.e. go campaign in California even though you’re not going to win there because that’ll convince paintywaist Gore and the media that you will crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women. I guess it’s just part of the conservative confidence game to declare victory before the last out; it can pay off big, but when it doesn’t, look out.
Democrats were the original party of racism. We are the party of Lincoln and the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
We must judge people by the content of their character, and not the color of their skin. This is the American way. Democrats still, today, want us to judge by the color of skin through racial quotas.
Perhaps qualifications, and not skin color, should be the criteria for employment? Remember that when you vote in 2012, since many of you no doubt voted skin color last time.
The taxpayer has seen how well that worked out first hand.
Rick Venema
COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VIRGINIA
I knew you were here, Rick Venema of COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VIRGINIA.
Wait, the party of who now? Let’s leave aside the fact that you seem to know only one, out-of-context King quote, but how in the world are you claiming MLK as a Republican? He never endorsed either party, though he claimed in the mid-60s that he had always voted straight-Democratic tickets. (King, Jr., Martin Luther (1992). Carson, Clayborne; Holloran, Peter; Luker, Ralph et al.. eds. The papers of Martin Luther King, Jr. University of California Press. p. 384.)
And, you know, I’m pretty sure most people who “voted skin color” in 2008 voted for McCain. The commenters here voted Obama because he’s further to the left than McCain and we’re, mostly, further to the left than Obama. We would have chosen Clinton over McCain, too, and she’s a different skin color.
elm
STILL FOR HIS T-SHIRT, USA
two corrections: he claimed in the mid 50s to have voted Dems.
And I got my location wrong.
elm
STILL WAITING FOR HIS T-SHIRT, USA
Let’s leave aside the fact that you seem to know only one, out-of-context King quote,
Teddy-bear MLK gave only one speech, that was exactly one sentence long. That other guy who looked and sounded just like him was some kind of commie. Teddy-bear MLK, like many of Rick Vemema’s imaginary friends, is a Republican.
Martin Luther King, Sr., endorsed Nixon, I believe, in 1960.
Um, Martin Luther King was a Democrat after 1960.
Actually, I didn’t know that. I thought he always said that both parties betrayed civil rights and he refused to associate with either (though he voted for the Dems.) Did he ever actually join the Democratic Party?
I’m not sure if ever endorsed either party, but after the Kennedys got him out of that Georgia prison in 1960, King never looked back on his Republican roots. MLK Sr was a Republican until I think the 70s. Old Party of Lincoln loyalties.
Actually, I might be wrong about this history–MLK Sr might have switched after 1960 and MLK Jr was more or less always a Democrat–it’s been a long time since I really dealt with this stuff and all the relevant books are in my office.
OK, that makes more sense. MLK Jr., as far as I know, was always a silent Dem, i.e. voted for them but did not overtly support them. As I said aboce, he claimed in the fifties to have always voted for them (though he says he was ambivalent between Eisenhower and Stevenson), which doesn’t fit in with a 1960 renouncing of the Republicans. Unless it was a 4-year flirtation with them he was renouncing.
We are the party of Lincoln and the Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.
Malaclypse
NOT SOME FUCKING SHITHOLE WITH A FUCKING BIG ARBYS, NO FUCKING WAY WILL I LIVE IN THAT CESSPOOL WITH RICK VENEMA, CRACKER.
Mal – Thanks for posting this quote! Awesome!
Oh dear sweet Cthulhu! Now shit for brains from a suburban shithole with a shitty third rate mall is channeling Manju! And dumbing it down in the process (no mean feat in itself).
DrDick
PEOPLE’S REPUBLIC OF MOTHERFUCKING MONTANA
US of FUCKING A!
You libs sure have potty mouths.
We are reprobates
Tim,
You’re a reprobate. I, on the other hand, am a fucking Trotskyite welfare king. Respect, bitchez!
Burritoboy
YO MAMA WEAR ARMY BOOTS, PEOPLE’S SOCIALIST KENYAN SHARIA REPUBLIC OF CALIFORNICATION
I am not a liberal, but a proud socialist and we scoff at your petty bourgeois liberal civility.
As troll personas go, Rick, you’re one of our better ones. You are certainly much better at it than HonorableJenBobNorman anonytroll. (I don’t think you’re the same person; your style is way too different and well developed.)
If I might make a small suggestion, you’re a little bit TOO specific in some of the points you make. A certain amount of specificity is good in a troll; it encourages people like Mal to go on a quest to prove you wrong, and that can eat up like fifteen, twenty minutes of their day. But you usually want to confine that sort of thing to tangential side issues. You never want to be verifiably, massively wrong about an issue of import, that makes you look bad. The troll fish thrives in muddy waters.
Other than that, fine work. I especially like the COLONIAL HEIGHTS thing, it’s the sort of gimmick that immediately catches peoples attention and is memorable, but isn’t silly or twee. It feels genuine.
I don’t want to belittle all of the fine work the LGM contributors have done over the years, but Rick Venema, COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VIRGINIA is certainly the most fun I’ve ever had reading a blog. A colossal killer of my precious time? Yes. But so much fun.
I would suggest he start a road show, but I realized my Dad is already a racist, city-hatun’, homophobe, so why would I pay Rick 29.95 to do Dad’s act?
Tim
INDIANAPOLIS, INDIANA
so you can punch him at the end of the act?
Ugggh, brother of Caveman Uggh
AMERICAN FORK, UTAH
Surely, Rick drew some inspiration from
joe from LOWELL
Your capitalization is all wrong.
Perhaps qualifications, and not skin color, should be the criteria for employment?
You don’t understand how it works at all. If you are minority, you deserve to fuck over other races.
We are the party of Lincoln
Yeah, your neighbors really love Lincoln.
You wouldn’t put a statue of Winston Churchill in downtown Berlin, would you?
Yes, yes I would.
What’s next, a statue of Sherman in Atlanta?
THIS IS THE BEST KICKSTARTER IDEA EVER!
I’d go for statues of Nat Turner and Union general George Thomas in Courtland, VA
What about one of John Brown at Harper’s Ferry?
Wow, they must really hate tennis down there.
Personally I’d like to see a statue of Huey Newton there
If MLK Jr was so great, how come he only ever said one thing?
If you have to reach back over a century and a half to come up with a president worth mentioning, then no, you’re not the party of Lincoln. Then again, you’re not really coming up with alternative reasons why Richmond is notable, when it’s really notable for one thing and one thing only.
They had Teddy Roosevelt too, the most badass president of the 20th century.
But its not like present Republicans are going to acknowledge him. TR didn’t use wealth and privilege as an excuse to avoid serving his country in uniform, was not a big fan of CAPITAL and started national conservation efforts.
Spuddie
FROM OCCUPIED ZONE, NEW JERSEY
The republicans are the current party of bigots of all stripes from racists to sectarian whiners.
From trying to destroy the 1st Amendment to marginalize Muslims to trying to destroy the 14th Amendment with overtly racist “anchor baby” legislation, the GOP has made its appeal to irrational hate more than clear.
“Qualifications” for the GOP usually involves being born into wealth or having friends who are.
Of course skin color doesn’t matter as much to the GOP as it used to. Being gay, of a minority religion, or foreign born seem to be the major triggers for their hate these days.
It’s 11:01 EST.
If I were Donald Verrilli, I would be trying to convince one of the District’s finer tattoo artists that I was not too drunk to get the words “Suck It!” written across my left pectoral.
+1
I’m guessing Roberts has been receiving a lot of hate mail today, and been disinvited from more than a few GOP cocktail parties in DC.
Obligatory caps: WOO!
[...] COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VIRGINIA is so special and so awesome. Really, he transcends other trolls. Then in comments Belle Waring wondered if he was just posing. I don’t know. So I googled “Rick Venema, Colonial Heights, Virginia.” And this [...]
GOOD WORK, RICK VENEMA. YOUR TAINT WILL NOT BE WITHERED ON THIS DAY.
URKOBOLD
PARMA, OHIO
You know who really pissed of conservatives. Joe McCarthy, that’s who. See here:
Roll-call for the censure of Joe McCarthy on Dec 01, 1954
…restricted to all known votes for the 22 Senators from the 11 fully Confederate States. I’m pretty sure they were all White Supremacists with the possible exception of Kefauver…and no, I will not grant LBJ that consideration.
AL Aye [D] Joseph Hill
AL Aye [D] John Sparkman
AR Aye [D] John McClellan
AR Aye [D] James Fulbright
FL Aye [D] Spessard Holland
FL
GA Aye [D] Walter George
GA Aye [D] Richard Russell
LA Aye [D] Russell Long
LA Aye [D] Allen Ellender
MS Aye [D] John Stennis
MS Aye [D] James Eastland
NC Aye [D] Samuel Ervin
NC Aye [D] William Scott
SC Aye [D] Olin Johnston
SC Aye [D] Charles Daniel
TN Aye [D] Carey Kefauver
TN
TX Aye [D] Lyndon Johnson
TX Aye [D] Marion Daniel
VA Aye [D] Absalom Robertson
VA Aye [D] Harry Byrd
Either conservatives hated ol’ Joe, confused him with Joe Kennedy, or they were not conservatives.
Which one is it, Erik?
Nice try Manju but I’m afraid you must travel to COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VIRGINIA and learn the Way of the troll at the feet of the master.
Lesson 1: It is said the troll’s is the twofold Way of keyboard and dishonesty, and he should have a taste for both Ways. Even if a man has no natural ability he can be a troll by sticking assiduously to both divisions of the Way.
Protip: Tailgunner Joe was not, in fact, on the Supreme Court.
If he really wasn’t on the Supreme Court, why did all those racist Democrats vote to censure him for Brown? I don’t understand . . .
–rea
GRAND RAPIDS, MICHIGAN
and I thought the censure was for Joe McCarthy baseball manager
Bill Murray
GAYVILLE, SOUTH DAKOTA
Again, I don’t understand the reasoning. Party politics and ideology are often at cross purposes, and voting to condemn a Republican Senator who had already irreparably embarrassed himself by calling General George Marshall a communist, hardly suggests that the Southern senators were hostile to conservatism.
There are two possible explanations for why the South went from Democrat to Republican in the 2 decades following the civil rights era. The most economical is that white Southerners blamed the Democrats (perhaps wrongly, as you argue) for the civil rights revolution, and came to see the Republican party as the vehicle for their racial and cultural grievances.
Another explanation would be that white Southerners accepted racial equality, not grudgingly, but so ardently that they rushed to identify with the party of Lincoln by voting for latter-day heirs of Lincoln such as Jesse Helms. This explanation seems inconsistent, not merely with my own experience of the region, but with nearly all of the political campaigns that have been run in those provinces.
One big issue with Manju’s style of argument is that he seems to assume that the final vote is the only important indicator of who supports what.
On the Civil Rights Act of 1964, for instance, he makes a great deal of the fact that a higher percentage of Republicans voted for it than Democrats. But this really ignores a pretty basic fact of what happened, which is basically that LBJ had to do an extraordinary amount of wheedling – and a lot of comments about how the “Party of Lincoln” couldn’t possibly bear to stand against civil rights, before he got Dirksen’s support for cloture. There were maybe a dozen Republicans in the Senate (out of 37) who were strongly in favor of civil rights (Thomas Kuchel, Kenneth Keating, Jacob Javits, etc.), and none of them would be at home in the modern day Republican Party. The main body of Senate Republicans was nominally in favor of civil rights, but had little real interest in actually passing a civil rights bill. Until almost the last minute, Dirksen wanted to remove the public accommodations part of the Civil Rights Act. It took all of LBJ’s skill to push Dirksen into supporting cloture. The idea that Everett Dirksen’s eventual yes vote means that the mainstream of the Republican Party was just as much in favor of civil rights as northern Democratic liberals is specious.
Manju has never let reality stand in the way of his stupidity and prejudices.
Or, if you prefer the 1970 Voting Rights Act as the starting point…same metric but now 1990
[D] H. Guy Hunt
[D] Howell Heflin
[D] Richard Shelby
[D] Bill Clinton
[D] David H. Pryor
[D] Dale Bumpers
[R] Bob Martinez
[R] Connie Mack III
[D] Bob Graham
[D] Joe Frank Harris
[D] Sam Nunn
[D] Wyche Fowler
[D] Buddy Roemer III
[D] Bennett Johnston, Jr.
[D] John Breaux
[D] Ray Mabus
[R] Trent Lott
[R] Thad Cochran
[R] James G. Martin
[R] Jesse Helms
[D] Terry Sanford
[D] Ned McWherter
[D] Jim Sasser
[D] Al Gore, Jr.
[R] Bill Clements
[D] Lloyd Bentsen
[R] Phil Gramm
[R] Carroll A. Campbell, Jr.
[R] Strom Thurmond
[D] Fritz Hollings
[D] Douglas Wilder
[D] Chuck Robb
[R] John Warner
22-11 D over R.
(and I’m not even counting Robert Byrd!!)
^^ this comment makes more sense if you read the similar one below first.
Now, now, do not go confusing the poor boy with facts and logic. They make his tiny little head hurt.
Before we can discuss opinions as to why the South went R, we need to get the facts straight.
Using the 1968cra as the starting point, 2 decades out…the 33 Govs and Senators from the 11 Confederate states in 1988:
[D] H. Guy Hunt
[D] Howell Heflin
[D] Richard Shelby
[D] Bill Clinton
[D] David H. Pryor
[D] Dale Bumpers
[R] Bob Martinez
[D] Lawton Chiles
[D] Bob Graham
[D] Joe Frank Harris
[D] Sam Nunn
[D] Wyche Fowler
[D] Buddy Roemer III
[D] Bennett Johnston, Jr.
[D] John Breaux
[D] Ray Mabus
[D] John C. Stennis
[R] Thad Cochran
[R] James G. Martin
[R] Jesse Helms
[D] Terry Sanford
[D] Ned McWherter
[D] Jim Sasser
[D] Al Gore, Jr.
[R] Bill Clements
[D] Lloyd Bentsen
[R] Phil Gramm
[R] Carroll A. Campbell, Jr.
[R] Strom Thurmond
[D] Fritz Hollings
[D] Gerald L. Baliles
[R] Paul S. Trible, Jr.
[R] John Warner
23D’s to 10R’s. By this metric, the South was still Dem.
The Presidential metric goes R of course, but the State and local reps are still D iirc.
So your phrasing is inaccurate.
Why do continue to argue something untrue?
Strom Thurmond was the freakin’ Dixiecrat nominee for President and he switched parties for a reason.
Also, too, shouldn’t the laws of semantics be enforced here? Manju should not be allowed to comment on a post entitled Deep Thoughts. He does not have any.
You’re cherypicking. You need to identify the other dixiecrats, see if they stayed or switched, and then ask why for them.
Here is a handy list to start with.
List of all the Dem Senators who voted against the ’64cra:
Byrd, Harry [D]
Byrd, Robert [D]
Eastland, James [D]
Ellender, Allen [D]
Ervin, Samuel [D]
Fulbright, James [D]
Gore, Albert [D]
Hill, Joseph [D]
Holland, Spessard [D]
Johnston, Olin [D]
Jordan, Benjamin [D]
Long, Russell [D]
McClellan, John [D]
Robertson, Absalom [D]
Russell, Richard [D]
Smathers, George [D]
Sparkman, John [D]
Stennis, John [D]
Talmadge, Herman [D]
Thurmond, J. [D]
Walters, Herbert [D]
I defy you to find more than 1 who became Republican.
So there were only 21 Dixiecrats in 1964? I remember there being more of them.
I think i have the house data somewhere. its a long list.
I’ll find it and publish it here. Do you really think it’ll help?
You think you can identify a lot of switches?
If you say yes, then I’ll go to the trouble.
Hogan,
Here you go. My understanding is that only a handful switched (like single digits). But I could be wrong since I can’t name them like I can the Senators or Governors.
So have a go at it if you think this changes the history.
Every Dixiecrat Congressman in 1964, going by their final vote on the 64cra:
AL George Andrews
AL Carl Elliott
AL Kenneth Roberts
AL George Grant
AL Robert Jones
AL George Huddleston
AL Albert Rains
AL Armistead Selden
AR James Trimble
AR Wilbur Mills
AR Oren Harris
AR Ezekiel Gathings
FL Robert Sikes
FL Don Fuqua
FL Donald Matthews
FL James Haley
FL Paul Rogers
FL Charles Bennett
FL Dante Fascell
FL Sam Gibbons
FL Albert Herlong
GA Robert Stephens
GA James Tuten
GA Charles Weltner
GA George Hagan
GA John Flynt
GA John Pilcher
GA John Davis
GA Elijah Forrester
GA Carl Vinson
GA Phillip Landrum
KY Frank Stubblefield
KY Frank Chelf
KY John Watts
KY William Natcher
LA Otto Passman
LA Joseph Waggonner
LA Theo Thompson
LA James Morrison
LA Felix Hébert
LA Thomas Boggs
LA Gillis Long
LA Edwin Willis
MI John Lesinski
MO William Hull
MO Paul Jones
MS John Williams
MS William Winstead
MS Thomas Abernethy
MS William Colmer
MS Jamie Whitten
NC Roy Taylor
NC David Henderson
NC Ralph Scott
NC Basil Whitener
NC Herbert Bonner
NC Lawrence Fountain
NC Harold Cooley
NC Horace Kornegay
NC Alton Lennon
NV Walter Baring
OK John Jarman
OK Victor Wickersham
SC Albert Watson
SC William Dorn
SC Lucius Rivers
SC Robert Ashmore
SC Robert Hemphill
SC John McMillan
TN Robert Everett
TN Thomas Murray
TN Joseph Evins
TX Ovie Fisher
TX Robert Casey
TX George Mahon
TX Lindley Beckworth
TX James Wright
TX Omar Burleson
TX Graham Purcell
TX Olin Teague
TX John Dowdy
TX William Poage
TX John Patman
TX Joe Kilgore
TX John Young
TX Joe Pool
TX Walter Rogers
TX Herbert Roberts
VA William Tuck
VA Julian Gary
VA Porter Hardy
VA William Jennings
VA Thomas Downing
VA John Marsh
VA Watkins Abbitt
VA Howard Smith
How many House Representatives from the Confederate states were Republicans by 1980, as compared to 1960?
I’ll look into it. Of the top of my head, I don’t think you will find an R majority by then.
Also, House folks are less known. i don’t want to be discrediting you guys if you end up with a lot of black reps for instance.
Senators and Govenors are famous, so I can’t fool you there. Hopefully you also know not to count the likes of Howard Baker or Winthrop Rockerfeller as part of the Southern Strategy.
1960 (86th Congress) – 99 Democrats, 7 Republicans
1981 (97th Congress) – 69 Democrats, 39 Republicans
A significant change, certainly. 4 of the 7 Republicans in 1960 were from the traditionally Republican Appalachian areas in East Tennessee, western North Carolina, and southwestern Virginia. The other three represented suburban areas in St. Petersburg, Florida, Arlington, Virginia, and Dallas, Texas.
Between those same years, by the way, the Senate delegation went from 22 Democrats-0 Republicans (1960) to 11 Democrats-10 Republicans-1 very conservative independent who caucused with the Democrats.
So, basically what we see is a situation where we go from there basically being no viable Democratic Party in the south, outside of a few new suburbs and traditionally Republican mountain regions, to a very competitive Republican Party, controlling nearly half the Senators, more than a third of the House seats, and several of the governorships.
Thanks for doing the research I was not willing to expend on Manju. Someone should book mark this for whenever he opens his mouth.
I think you mean “no viable
DemocraticRepublican Party” in that last paragraph.Most people would correct that as they read, but Manju’s not most people.
Yup, keep on talking about Joseph Hill, J. Thurmond, Benjamin Jordan, Absalom Robertson, and James Fulbright. It shows you know what you’re talking about.
But I don’t see what your point is – yes, other than Thurmond, leading Dixiecrat senators didn’t tend to switch to the Republican Party. There were a number of reasons for this. A few of them mostly opposed civil rights for political reasons, rather than out of conviction (Al Gore Sr., most obviously). Others of them were fairly liberal on non-civil rights subjects, and most of these came around on civil rights later. And of course, several of them died during the 60s and early 70s –
Harry Byrd, Allen Ellender, Spessard Holland, Olin Johnston, Everett Jordan, Willis Robertson, Richard Russell, and Herbert Walters were all dead by 1975.
But the most important reason people like James Eastland and John Stennis remained Democrats was because they had power as Democrats – they were in the majority, and their seniority gave them chairmanships over important committees, which they might have lost by defecting.
Looking only at senators who voted against the Civil Rights Act, a group whose power was disproportionately tied to their status as members of the Democratic majority in the Senate, is an extremely dubious way to look at what happened in the South, politically.
I don’t really grasp what the point of this exercise is. The continuance in the Democratic Party of men like James Eastland did very little good for the national party, and certainly did no good for the advancement of liberal interests. In presidential elections, the south moved decisively to the Republicans after 1964 (with the soul exception of Carter’s election in 1976). As the old school dixiecrats died off, Democratic politicians in the South had to rebuild the party as a biracial coalition, including African Americans, while white conservatives gradually (but slowly) moved to the Republicans.
There were a number of reasons for the gradual move to the Republicans, but certainly the Republicans’ status as “the White man’s party” was one of them. Look at the voting patterns in Mississippi – basically, Black people are Democrats and White people are Republicans. Are you really arguing that the political realignment of the south had nothing to do with civil rights?
timb cherrypicked strom thurmond in order to argue that I am speaking “something untrue” about the shift of the south from D to R. The point of publishing the list of Strom’s relevant colleagues in the Senate was to provide a more accurate database for the very metric timb thinks extremely important.
OK. I said; “here is a handy list to start with.” I’ve included Governors in the mix and I’ve provided the raw data for the House.
I don’t believe any of these metrics will help you find a significant amount of Dixiecrats who became Republicans. And my understanding is that the State and Local level is worse.
I could be wrong, since I’m relying on outside sources for everything except Senators and Governors…but I pulled the raw data on the House to make it easy for anyone who wants to finally catch me in a falsehood.
Since they died early, lets take a look at what happened to their Senatorial seats once incumbency was no longer an issue.
1. H.Byrd [D] to Byrd, jr [D]
2. Allen Ellender [D] to Elaine S. Edwards [D] to Bennett Johnston, Jr. [D]
3. Spessard Holland [D] to Lawton Chiles [D]
4. Olin Johnston [D] to Donald S. Russell [D] to Fritz Hollings [D]
5. Everett Jordan [D] to Helms [R]
6. Willis Robertson [D] to William B. Spong, Jr. [D]
7. Richard Russell [D] to David H. Gambrell [D] to Sam Nunn [D]
8. Herbert Walters [D} to Ross Bass [D]
Only 1 of 8 went R.
And Helms, while a good solid data point for the Southern Strategy, is not as great as liberals think. If he ran as a Dem he would’ve had to split the extreme-racist vote with Everett Jordan in the primary. The man he eventually faced in the general was no saint either, having voted against 1 major cra (and for another…going by memory here but i can find the details if u r skeptical).
How about I throw in Haley Barbour and Trent Lott and Richard Shelby?
And, Lee Atwater?
Still, you wanna believe that the leading Dixiexrat in Congress switched sides by accident, you can. Makes no sense and doesn’t explain how Republican black people came to identify with the Democratic Party (don’t they know Democrats hate them? Your theory posits that 90+% of African-Americans are stupid because they don’t know who ROBERT BYRD was).
You didn’t answer the second question….you know, how do the laws of physics allow a person who argues up is down to post on a thread called “Deep Thoughts”?
Hey, Tim, don’t forget Newt Gingrich
Why would all of them switch and join the minority? Hell, Richard Shelby is as big of a racist, corporatist pig who ever walked the Earth and he waited until ’93 to discover “I didn’t leave the Democrat party; they left me.”
Conservative versus liberal, manny. Not party identifiers.
Why do continue to argue something untrue?
Because he is a retarded 14 year old conservative.
How about the House, which tends to have more turnover? How about voter registration?
Malaclypse…Don’t have House data handy, but here is Party Identification for the South:
Dems in ’78 and ’80 = 57% (both years)
Repubs (same years) = 26%, 27%
So by this metric, the South is still a Dem stronghold.
http://www.electionstudies.org/nesguide/2ndtable/t2a_2_1.htm
http://www.electionstudies.org/nesguide/2ndtable/t2a_2_2.htm
Once you guys get your facts in order, we can discuss the issue intelligently.
ooops. wrong dates. hold on.
For 1988, Dems were at 55%. 1990 = 56%
R’s = 33% (’88) / 28% (’90)
Party identification lags way behind actual voting behavior.
ok…but 4 the record, I didn’t bring it up…just supplying the data.
I’m not trying to pass a cherrypicked metric by you is my point.
No, “we” cannot, because you are part of the “we,” and you have proved a million times over that “you” cannot figure that party did not equal ideology
I’ve addressed ideology before and I’ll address it again here (later).
But i will be using data and academic sources. Your argument above is just an assertion. Your previous argument (strom thurmond) at least had data (strom) but failed to take into account the massive data (Wallace, Gore, Faubus, Bull C, etc) going in the other direction.
So…you need facts. Then you need to get them straight. Then we can have an intelligent discussion.
I’ll probably respond to John re ideology….so feel free to engage there.
Where are you getting these “known votes” from? Because surely George Smathers and Al Gore Sr., like every other Democrat but John Kennedy, voted to censure McCarthy. Also, several of these guys were not known by their first given names – it’s Lister Hill, William Fulbright, Kerr Scott, Estes Kefauver, Price Daniel (of Texas), and Willis Robertson. If you can’t get their names right, why should we trust your interpretation of what this means?
And are you really suggesting that James Eastland and Harry Byrd were not conservatives?
Altho it’s nice to see Joe Hill made the senate – I told you he wasn’t dead
I would like to propose marriage to this comment.
I never died says he.
I got that from govtrack. I download the data onto an excel spreadsheet so i can filter/sort at the drop of a pin…so I usually don’t bother with a link, but here it is:
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/83-1954/s271
The have no entry for Gore and Smathers so I left it like that. The academics who run the site are like the Grand Poobahs of Political Scince data crunchers, so rest assurred its a reliable source.
Eastland and H. Byrd? No. Gore, Fullbright yes.
I’ll elaborate later, but I’m going by DW-Nominate and can collaborate that data with anecdotal roll-calls.
Certainly it’s fair to say that some of the southern segregationists were liberals on non-civil rights issues – Gore and Fulbright certainly were, although Gore, at least, was sympathetic to civil rights, as well. He voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1957, for the Voting Rights Act, for the Fair Housing Act, and he refused to sign the Southern Manifesto. Why is it that Barry Goldwater, whose opposition to the Civil Rights Act was, at least in part, very clearly part of a political strategy to win over the south for the presidential election, gets a total pass on voting against the Civil Rights Act, but Gore gets lumped in with the Dixiecrats?
But many of them were conservative all around, and certainly they were, on average, more conservative than Democrats from other parts of the country.
Gore gets exposed in the inner votes. The 57cra was “worse than nothing”, according to civil rights veterans. So the real test of where one stood lies in the inner votes: rule 22, sending the bill to the judiciary committee, jury trial amendment, etc.
So for example, while he voted for the 65cra, he submitted a bill, just moments before passage, that would’ve sent it back to the Judiciary Commitee…run by one James Eastland, a vicious raicst and Senator from MI.
Kennedy would pull the same trick in ’57, and Eastland became to him what Thurmond was to Nixon. It seems fair to credit Gore with the Southern Manifesto, but if he had national ambitions, that might change the calculation.
But regarding his actual votes, once one looks at the details, it appears that Gore was a reliable racist but wanted to appear otherwise. He gets hit rather hard on the DW Nominate Dimension II score (I think you know what I talking about, but if not I’ll elaborate).
What does political party have to do with conservative vs. liberal?
Seriously Manju, can’t we expect even the slightest bit of sophistication in thought on these topics from you?
It really is hard for slow witted 14 year olds to fake sophistication.
I think Manju’s point is that only liberals would vote to censure McCarthy, since McCarthy was a conservative, so thus Harry Byrd and James Eastland were liberals. But I’m not sure.
You know who really pissed of conservatives. Joe McCarthy, that’s who.
Well yeah. He made them look bad.
I live in Richmond and it’s a great little city. Colonial Heights is basically a KKK encampment with a black university, Virginia State University, perched on the edge( go figure). So except for VSU it’s a suburban shithole. I’d even take Hopewell with it’s acrid air from the Allied chemical factory over Colonial Heights. But come to Richmond and visit the James River Parks. You can go whitewater rafting right through the middle of the city. Tons of history here. Some museums. A thriving music scene (Gwar and Cracker) are from here.
GWAR and Cracker =thriving musical scene?
Hey, I like cracker
He doesn’t like it when you call him that. I thought he’d made that clear.
I stand corrected, JOE FROM LOWELL
I think that’s:
Joe From
LOWELL, MASSACHUSETTS
I stand corrected again
They are a pale shadow reminding us of what Camper van Beethoven used to be.
Cracker is great (and better than Camper van Beethoven). But I’m pretty sure that they’re from California.
Cracker is not better than Camper van Beethoven!
(and better than Camper van Beethoven)
Oh fucking hell, this is the wrongest wrong thing ever written on the internet.
But I’m pretty sure that they’re from California.
This is also wrong, but the wrongness is completely overshadowed by the wrongness of your opinion on Camper.
Isn’t David Lowery from California? Could have sworn That I had a read an interview with him talking about driving to L.A. to see Black Flag concerts as a kid. And while I like Camper, they never put out anything as good as Kerosene Hat, and they didn’t have Johnny Hickman, who is a fantastic guitarist. Funny, a neighbor a couple of weeks ago upon hearing me pull into the driveway with Cracker on urged me to give Camper another listening. I might have to heed that advice.
All the Camper folks met at UCLA, if memory serves.
they never put out anything as good as Kerosene Hat
If Camper had never put out anything besides the single Chairman Mao Reminisces About His Days In Southern China, they would still be better than anything on Kerosene Hat. Everything on Key Lime Pie is better than anything on Kerosene Hat.
and they didn’t have Johnny Hickman, who is a fantastic guitarist
And Cracker does not have Jonathan Segal or Eugene Chadbourne.
I just purchased some Camper, and I hope you’re right. I was a pretty big Cracker fan in the 90′s, and just kind of rediscovered them this Spring after hearing Ain’t Gonna Suck Itself for the first time.
Camper met at UC Santa Cruz. And history will judge them as a greater band than cracker.
Form their website –
“A quick rundown of Cracker’s history begins in the mid-80s in Santa Cruz, California, when David Lowery,Victor Krummenacher, Chris Molla and Jonathan Segel formed Camper Van Beethoven, and their jangly and stoned “Take The Skinheads Bowling” became an instant college radio staple. Camper Van Beethoven disbanded, rather eventfully, in Sweden, following their second major label release. When Lowery formed Cracker with his longtime friend Johnny Hickman—the two grew up together in Redlands, California—and original bassist Davey Faragher, their sound had less in common with Camper’s exotic excursions and was more in synch with the Kinks and Southern Roots Music. They released their self-titled debut on Virgin, and following the #1 Modern Rock hit “Teen Angst (What The World Needs Now)” the band became a commercial sensation (complete with MTV exposure) with the platinum selling Kerosene Hat and its enormous, era defining hit singles “Low” and “Eurotrash Girl.””
But they do now record out of Richmond Virginia.
Hicks and Lowery met in California, created a studio in Pioneertown where Kerosene Hat was recorded, and they started having an annual concert there in 2005 called Campout West. Based in Virginia now, but definitely a California band.
I was just being snarky. Got dragged to a GWAR show in 1991 near CSA boulevard in RICHMOND, VIRGINIA. Admired their volume and costumery.
[...] this from the comments at Lawyers, Guns and Money: Truly a lovely sight it is. I think perhaps they should stay indoors or else, with all the [...]
Thank FSM it’s an edge, not a brim! Because then COLONIAL HEIGHTS, VIRGINIA would have to challenge Richmond to a steel-cage death match to determine which metropolis is the brimmingest.
Since ObamaCare’s mandatory purchase penalty has not been declared as a tax by the Supreme Court, doesn’t that mean that a repeal effort could be made through the reconciliation process, avoid a cloture vote and only require 51 votes in the Senate?
Thoughts?
Why not just wait for Romney’s inauguration? I hear he’ll repeal it all by himself himself ON DAY ONE.
No.
Reconciliation bills have to be budget-neutral or better. Since the penalty brings in revenue, repealing it would increase the deficit, and cannot go through reconciliation.
The important part of the Reconciliation Rules is the effect on the budget, not the name “tax.”
I thought it could go through reconciliation if the whole reconciliation bill reduces the deficit.
Well, yes, you could always write any bill to do whatever you want and also raise taxes a zillion dollars in year 9, thus making it budget neutral, and pass it through reconciliation.
I was just answering the tax/not a tax question.
And didn’t the Republicans pass a bunch of things through reconciliation in the Bush years that were not budget neutral?
I do think there is sometimes a time for humility and for not rubbing it in to one’s opponents. The ACA was important, and I supported it.
But although it is an important decision and perhaps important precedent, it doesn’t rise to level of Brown in the sense that it’s so easily the right thing to do. Brown overturned what we today see as a manifestly unjust system in which the state explicitly denied people of color the same opportunities as white people.
This decision upholds a policy (again, one I support) that may indeed be a bad policy in at least some respects and that was defended by arguments that apparently were novel enough to be credibly susceptible to what I’m sure many here will call the critiques of right-wing ideologues.
[...] Gosh, I haven’t seen conservatives this mad at the Supreme Court since Brown v. Board of Education. h/t to Erik Loomis, of Lawyers, Guns, and Money. [...]