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A Note

[ 130 ] October 31, 2011 |

Hey, I’m a long-time Doug Flutie fan too. So before anybody in our comments section compares Tim Tebow to Flutie again, there should be evidence that he’s better than JaMarcus Russell first.

Comments (130)

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  1. Ronnie P says:

    No offense, but Tebow hating is becoming a bit tiresome. I mean, everybody’s doing it now.

  2. wsn says:

    What I don’t get is why Denver fans ever thought he was going to be anything other than what he is.

    • Scott Lemieux says:

      I think part of it — and it’s not just Denver fans — is that at the pro level people greatly overate raw athleticism. He can run and he has a fairly strong arm, so people fool themselves into thinking that his inability to throw accurately or read defenses is something that can be fixed. It’s like the baseball organizations who are convinced that if a guy can run or throw you can teach him to hit.

      • Erik Loomis says:

        Though of course with Tebow it is about so much more than raw athleticism–it’s about his evangelical Christianity that he so openly displays. Combine that with the fellation he received from college football announcers for 4 years and the fact that he played on a national championship team and you have a perfect storm.

        • Ronnie P says:

          The college stuff is big. A lot of people don’t seem to understand that none of the “winners” in the NFL won much in college (Brady, Roethlisberger, Aikman, Elway, Tee Martin).

          But it seems to me, that most people get that now. Tebow has had doubters since day one in the NFL. That’s my beef with these posts: they don’t seem to recognize that Tebow-bashing is the norm.

        • H-Bob says:

          From the Denver sports page letters, it appears the man-crushes result from his Xtianity. That creates the attendent blather about his “character”, “intangibles”, “inspiration”, etc.

          Danny Wuerffel never got this adulation!

        • Furious Jorge says:

          Gary Danielson used to make his wife wear a #15 Gators jersey to bed.

          It’s true, I swear!

        • hype says:

          There was also big talk about Tebow’s intangibles. Commentators were required to use ‘he is just a winner’ if they said more than two sentences about Tblow.

      • Passing technique is not the same thing as hitting. You actually can coach up the former, especially among someone who’s never had intensive coaching on that front, while hitting is much more about innate ability.

        • Walt says:

          I suspect that a big part of it is just practice from a very early age, so that it’s already instinctual.

          • That’s a big part of it, and Tebow has had that all his life, and has been riding that all the way through college.

            But there’s another part to it – a disciplined technique – and someone like Tebow is able to succeed while ignoring that part of being a passer and still succeed up to the highest levels of college ball.

            But you need that in the pro game, no matter how much raw ability and arm strength you might have.

        • actor212 says:

          You can’t coach passing technique after a certain age (say, high school). After that, the kid’s on his own. You can refine technique, make his footwork a little quicker maybe, or alter his release point, but if the kid throws dead quails, the best you can hope for is a slightly lighter dead bird.

        • Bill Murray says:

          so he went to a big time college for 4 years and is in his second year in the pros, and he’s never had intensive coaching on his passing technique, despite this being a known problem of his since at least his sophomore year of college?

          • Scott Lemieux says:

            I’m also not convinced by these implicit arguments that Urban Meyer is a yutz. Seems like a pretty good coach to me, and I’m not all that convinced he was leaving a lot of Tebow’s ability on the table.

          • so he went to a big time college for 4 years and is in his second year in the pros, and he’s never had intensive coaching on his passing technique, despite this being a known problem of his since at least his sophomore year of college?

            He was good enough – beyond good enough – based on raw talent and athleticism to dominate at the college level. Why would his coaches bother to break him down?

            As for the pros…well…it’s the Broncos. Who knows, man?

  3. Erik Loomis says:

    The only thing about that Williamson article that bothers me is that it’s clear that Elway and Fox have already moved on. They never wanted Tebow in the first place. They are starting Tebow because they were facing open revolt from their own fans. The end of the article finally gets at it–they have to play Tebow and let him show everyone that he is terrible before they can move on with their own fans.

    I would also like to commend Josh McDaniels’ drafting strategies. Having 5 first round picks in 2 years that result in no good players (unless you think Demaryius Thomas might turn into something still) is pretty impressive. Perhaps teams should not give their entire franchises over a guy whose entire qualifications consist of being an assistant for Bill Belichick.

  4. witless chum says:

    Tebus wasn’t really given a lot of chances on Sunday.

    My Lions were all over him and the offense seemed to be predicated on him throwing downfield. He was actually more accurate than I thought he’d be, not having seen the guy play in the pros. John Lynch was screaming for Broncos to give him some short, spread offense style passing, which would have at least kept the Lions defensive ends from stealing the ball from him.

    As a Lions fan, I’ve seen some bad quarterbacking, but I’m not ready to run Tebow out of town. I think that’s a bad team with whoever at QB, so they might as well give Tebow the snaps and see if he can show something rather than going 5-11 or so with a decent veteran like Orton. Again, as a Lions fan, I think sometimes your team is just bad and there is no right answer at QB. I’m not really a Tebow believer, but they might as well let him finish out the year and see if he can show something. I certainly think it’s more likely Tebow’s combo of skills can add up to an NFL starter than it is that Brady Quinn is the guy.

    Did Josh McDaniels Marrinelli the hell out of that team, or are they not as bad as I think after just watching them on Sunday? They seem more talented than the 0-16 Lions team that was essentially Calvin Johnson and some guys, but I’m not sure how many would start for Detroit.

    Moreno and McGahee, obvs. given Best’s injury probs.
    Champ is a lock, Ryan Clady seems like one too.
    Von Miller or D.J. Williams at OLB, probably.
    Eric Decker, maybe.
    That DE whose name is escaping me seems like he’s a somebody.

    • Ken Houghton says:

      Uh,he wasn’t “more accurate than I thought he’d be”; the defense eased up as the second half progressed.

      Look at his first-half stats; that his final QB rating was 0.6 higher than the Broncos backup who went 1-2 is a tribute to the late decision to avoid injury at the end of a blowout.

    • actor212 says:

      How much is Tebow calling his own shots and how much is the coach dialing them in?

      Because the highlights I saw, if that was me in the pocket, I’d have audibled screens all the live long day.

      They stuffed the run, they stuffed the QB scramble. They had my receivers handcuffed. It looked like the Lions had the scheme figured out after the first series (which Denver did score on, to their credit).

      • RhZ says:

        It was, after all, the Broncos.

        When a team is bad, everyone looks bad, or almost everyone.

        If they had a running game (and I freely admit I know nothing about the Broncs these days) then Tebow would have looked much better.

        If they had a line that could protect him, he would look better, too.

        Not to defend him, I am perfectly prepared to see him bounce around the league for several years before retiring at age 27. Like, say, Tim Couch.

    • Joseph Slater says:

      As a long-time Lions fan, LOL at “Marrinelli” as a verb.

      • witless chum says:

        I was irked at Marrinelli all over again on Sunday by seeing Andre Goodman starting for Denver. Goodman’s no world-beater, but he’s started in the league since Rod showed him the door to replace him with some superannuated former Buc who knew the system.

  5. CJColucci says:

    It’s always tempting to think that there has to be some way of winning long-term with these players who have unusual and sometimes awesome combinations of talents that don’t quite add up to an NFL quarterback as the position is generally understood. People who know a lot more about football than I do have tried and failed. I predicted long ago that Tebow would repeat the pattern. To be fair, I made a similar prediction about Cam Newton, and I may be wrong about him.

    • H-Bob says:

      That is an interesting point. I thought Tebow would have problems because the NFL coaches don’t know how to use his talents effectively. Most QBs are system players as they succeed or fail based on the offensive system (Orton is a good example). However, Denver fans have been spoiled with QBs who tried to improvise (Elway, Plummer and even Cutler), so the QB who takes the sack or “smartly” throws the ball away is not going to be a Denver fan favorite. That is probably 5% to 10% of Tebow’s allure. It will be interesting to see if Elway can get the fans to accept a QB who plays the opposite way from Elway himself.

    • hype says:

      The NFL also has a very mixed record of trying to turn super athletes into players at other positions.

  6. Comparing the premature dismissal of Tebow to the premature dismissal of Flutie is not the same thing as comparing Tebow and Flutie themselves.

    But it’s good to see Scott moving towards my “let’s see more evidence” position.

    • kth says:

      The basis for comparison between Tebow and Flutie is that Flutie was an unremarkable journeyman NFL QB with 50-odd career starts over a decade, who nonetheless is inexplicably some kind of legend to his deluded admirers. It isn’t at all that Flutie somehow overcame the naysayers, as Tebow might hope to, because Flutie never did.

      But if anyone can replicate Flutie’s feat of leveraging a lackluster career plus a certain je ne sais quoi into a cult following, surely it’s Tebow.

  7. sleepyirv says:

    I find all of this absolutely insane if Tebow can actually play TE. The brass would have a perfectly reasonable argument that the QB experiment is unnecessary and that it is important to get Tebow prepared for the role he can succeed in. And with a good QB to throw the ball to him, Tebow is going to be a Hall of Famer.

    It’s not like Tebow’s life is over if he has to play TE.

    • Erik Loomis says:

      Well now, calling Tebow a hall-of-famer at TE is a huge overstatement and gets to what Scott was saying in another comment about overrating athleticism. Yes, he may well make a good TE and yes Denver needs to make that move. But there are a ton of really athletic TEs. And you absolutely cannot correlate athletic success in college to the NFL.

      The other issue here is that Tebow sees himself as a QB and a leader. He has this “I love baby Jesus and am so humble” schtick, but he’s a giant egoist who is so popular with the fans who want him to date their daughter (as someone said in a comment here) that he can actually leverage his college success against NFL executives who know what he needs to do succeed.

    • JazzBumpa says:

      Tebow at TE?!? Never gonna happen. NFL execs flush their mistakes away, they don’t display them evey Sunday. A high draft pick and QB bonus money on a TE?

      Sorry, too many egos involved to ever showcase that kind of classic misjudgment.

      Cheers!
      JzB

    • Cory says:

      Matt Jones was probably a better athlete than Tebow and never made the transition from college QB to NFL receiver despite that being the plan for him before he was ever drafted.
      (Maybe it was all the evil weed’s fault)

  8. c u n d gulag says:

    One last thing, besides the Evangelical Christianity – Tebow is white!

    We can all think of tons of black Quarterbacks coming out of college who reminded us of Tebow. Great athletes with decent to good arms.

    How many of them were drafted in the 1st round to be QB’s?
    How many were drafted to even be QB’s, and not WR’s, RB’s, or DB’s?

    Make the kid a TE, or maybe a FB who can run an occasional run-pass option.

    Me?
    I can’t stand his public displays of affection for the baby Jesus, and never could.
    I don’t wish the kid any evil.
    I just wish he’d disappear.

    But you know he’ll have his own Christian TV Ministry in a matter of days if he’s cut.

    I can see Timmeh up at the pulpit with a helmet on, and as the show begins, we see a guy dressed as Jesus running a gauntlet of Liberals, lesbians, atheists, “rustlers, cutthraots, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, half-wits, dim-wits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, horse wagglers, horse thiefs, bullbags, train robbers, bank robbers, ass kickers, shit kickers, and Methodists!”

    And every time a donation exceeds $1,000, Tebow will strike the Heisman pose, do his prayer routine, and spike a football that will look like whoever the hated Liberal of that week happens to be.

    • Ken Houghton says:

      Got it! If Tebow had been black with those flaws, there isn’t a team in the NFL that would have considered him for QB.

      The list of QBWNBs (Ryan Leaf, anyone?) just got one longer.

      • Oh, come on. Look at the Raiders. Look at Atlanta investing in the pre-jail Michael Vick. Look at Dante Culpepper. Even Bill Bellichick drafted such a quarterback to back up Brady few years ago.

        I don’t understanding this line of argument at all. Big, strong, fast black quarterback with questionable passing techniques were all the rage for a decade or more.

    • BradP says:

      How many of them were drafted in the 1st round to be QB’s?

      If they were Tebow’s height, all of them.

      A list of athletic and tall black QBs that generally had to switch from the college spread to the NFL pro game:

      Donovan McNabb (#2 Overall), JaMarcus Russell (#1 Overall), Josh Freeman (#17 Overall), Dennis Dixon (5th Round), Tavaris Jackson (#32 Overall), Josh Johnson (5th Round), Cam Newton (#1 Overall), Seneca Wallace (4th Round), Vince Young (#3 Overall)

      • c u n d gulag says:

        Guys, the ones you list are almost all recent.

        I’m old enough (older actually) to remember when Doug Williams was drafted, and people were shocked that Tampa Bay was going to keep him as a QB.

        Hell, I remember when James Harris was the LA Rams QB, and the controversy about that.

        Black didn’t have the “necessary qualities” to be QB’s in the NFL.

        By the early 2000′s, that was all thankfully gone.
        Remember when Rush put his non-cleated foot into his ample fat racist mouth about McNabb?

        But, your point’s certainly valid.

        • efgoldman says:

          I’m old enough (older actually) to remember when Doug Williams was drafted, and people were shocked that Tampa Bay was going to keep him as a QB.

          And then all the hoo-hah when Williams won the Super Bowl with the Redskins, and some idiot reporter asked him how long he’d been a black quarterback.

        • BradP says:

          There is still some major racism in the way scrambling quarterbacks are treated by the media, but at this point, these guys have proven themselves to valuable for most front office guys to stand in their way.

          I’m sure its gonna get turned around on me in a heartbeat, but some folks have such a profound interest in Tebow’s failure that it is starting to get the same feel as some of that racist hate.

          Please note, that does not mean to imply that Tebow’s critics are racist, just that they seem far too interested in seeming him fail.

          • Erik Loomis says:

            Oh, I absolutely want to see him fail.

            And there’s a clear reason. He combines the media worshiping of Derek Jeter (not Tebow’s fault, nor Jeter’s) with sanctimonious in your face Christianity. And also with significantly less talent than Jeter has, if we can make superficial comparisons between sports. So essentially, Tebow is like a crappy, obnoxiously evangelical Jeter.

            • And now would be a good time to point out that the only clubhouse altercation in which Jeter has ever been involved was the time he blew off evangelical nut Chad Curtis. Which would make Jeter kind of like a talented, totally unprosyletizing Tebow.

              • Erik Loomis says:

                It’s gotten pretty bad when I start liking Jeter relative to other athletes.

                • I’m a Sox fan, and I never got the Jeter-hate.

                  The man plays the game the way it’s supposed to be played. If he played in any other market, he’d be a universally-loved guy.

                  He can’t help the press he gets from the New York media.

                • Njorl says:

                  I’m not a Jeter hater. I’m a Jeter-lover hater. I don’t even hate the ordinary fans who love Jeter, just the TV people. He should have to include their in-kind PR donations on his income taxes.

                • See, this is precisely the structure of Jeter-hatred: people can’t stand the fact that there’s literally nothing to hate about the guy, so they take it out on the people who love the fact that there’s literally nothing to hate about the guy.

                  Unless you hate the way he played on the day he got hit number 3000. Because that kind of 5-for-5 showoffishness is truly deplorable.

                • actor212 says:

                  @Joe,

                  The “hate” can be summed up in three words: New. York. Post.

                  You might recall that, when his contract expired in 2010, some awful news stories started appearing about what an ungrateful bastard he was.

                  Well, there’s a large contingent of sheeple Yankee fans that swallowed that crap whole.

                  In reality, the Yankees had no one to blame but themselves for giving A-Rod that godawful extension when it wasn’t even necessary, thus forcing Jeter’s agent to insist on some back-compensation for the fact that, you know, Jeter was the key to their Series wins and even the new stadium.

                  Too, Jeter’s agent fouled the waters by publicly speculating that he’d test the waters outside the friendly confines of the Stadium. That was not helpful to Jeter’s image and was leaped on by Hank Steinbrenner as ingratitude, and by Cashman who all but told Jeter to take a hike.

                • Giambi should slide says:

                  The people to hate are Yankees fans and announcers.
                  The flip was a impressive heads up play that was turned into something mythological.

      • wengler says:

        I would compare T Jack to Tebow.

        Though I think T Jack is better.

        • BradP says:

          Comparing the two of them coming straight out of college, I would have thought the closest would have been Josh Freeman.

          Of course Tebow has performed as I expected, and Freeman, prior to this years regression (interceptions has sent his rating lower than Tebow’s), has exceeded all my expectations.

  9. BradP says:

    Tebow actually showed some improvement, and while he may or not be the future of the team, Elway should probably focus on developing some consistent OL play and get a receiver who doesn’t suck. There may be 3 or 4 qbs in the league who could have success throwing to Eric Decker, Eddie Royal, and a rookie in D. Thomas.

    Probably shouldn’t have gone with John Fox either.

    At this point, however, I wish they would let Orton go in and lose out the rest of the season in relative quiet.

    • themac says:

      Jerry Rice wouldn’t catch a pass if it were thrown ten yards in front of, behind, or to the side of him, which was where Tebow was chucking them yesterday. And even the best O-line won’t stop sacks if it takes too long for the QB to decide he has to run–if the play isn’t designed as a QB draw he’s totally flat-footed.

      Another point: I think an under-appreciated source of Tebow-hate is his apparent insistence on playing QB rather than TE or fullback. (I recall that this came up as an issue during the draft.) For all of his supposed leadership qualities, that doesn’t exactly mark him as a team player.

      • BradP says:

        Admittedly, I was not able to watch the game. But I do read about such things, and when this article says:

        “I lost count of the dropped passes today”

        I tend to think Tebow’s accuracy wasn’t the only thing contributing to the lack of completions.

        Did you get to watch the game?

    • actor212 says:

      It makes you wonder if they put Tebow in there because he can take hits better.

      • BradP says:

        Their right tackle has gotten blown up all day long the last two weeks, and I do know I would rather have Tebow with the ball than Orton when that happens.

        • witless chum says:

          Tebow displayed some bad pocket awareness, giving up two strip sacks just to Cliff Avril. I haven’t really watched Orton, but he wouldn’t still be in the league if he was as bad.

    • mark f says:

      Didn’t the Broncos just get rid of a WR who doesn’t suck?

      • BradP says:

        They have been getting rid of everyone on the team that didn’t suck for the past three years.

        The only thing breaking that trend was the firing of Josh McDaniels.

      • witless chum says:

        We certainly enjoy having Tony Scheffler in Detroit. He does excellent celebrations when he scores TDs (sword fighting in Tampa, military in Denver?).

        • I think he meant Brandon Lloyd.

        • Joseph Slater says:

          I agree re enjoying having Scheffler. I think the celebration in Denver started off with “Tebowing” (something Avril had done earlier), and finished with the “Mile High Salute” that Denver players have been known to use.

          My favorite stat from yesterday. Denver offense, 10 total points (7 of which came after the game was no longer in any doubt). Detroit defense (on plays in which Tebow either threw an interception or fumbled): 14. Tebow basically gave up more points, singlehandedly, than he managed to lead his offense to score.

          • Green Caboose says:

            As good as that stat was, even better was a graphic posted near the end of the 3rd quarter comparing the passing yards of the two teams. Detroit had several hundred yards. Denver had -7 at that point (this was after Tebow had taken several sacks and had over 10 incompletions in a row).

            As much as I was happy when Denver started Tebow, it has quickly become very clear why he was #3 on the depth chart before they gave him a social promotion to starter in order to appease the fan base. We had hoped that his natural ability to scramble and throw off tackles would compensate for the weak Denver OL, but although that has proven true his inability to detect and connect to any but the most wide open receivers simply won’t cut it in the NFL

            • Joseph Slater says:

              So many amusing numbers to choose from. It’s also worth stressing that most of the handful of passes Tebow did complete were in the later third through fourth quarters when the game was obviously out of reach — yes, it was obviously out of reach by the late third quarter. And a chunk of that time, Detroit was playing subs.

  10. Tracy says:

    I’m old, so this may be meaningless to those who aren’t Bears fans, but Tim Tebow reminds me of Bobby Douglass.

  11. Jim Lynch says:

    When a celebrity habitually refers to God and his boy as being particularly close friends (and allies), that person invites ridicule.

  12. Sherri says:

    The Tebow hate is because he gets attention all out of proportion to his actual talent and ability. He’s Anna Kournikova, except not as good.

  13. Green Caboose says:

    Here in the Colorado Springs area (i.e. the Center of the Fundamentalist World) you can’t go into a mall without seeing dozens of #15 jerseys on the kids. They loves them some Tebow.

    Of course, this means that the sports bar and web board discussions about the Tebow have taken on a whole new level of irrationality. We’re all used to irrational discussions during QB controversies – but now we’ve added tens of thousands of literal young-earth-creationists to the mix.

    In addition to the usual cherry-picked statistics and logical fallacies, the Tebow supporters are convinced that the Denver media, coaching staffs, and wide receivers – not to mention the referees – are anti-Christians who want Tebow to fail.

    When the team was losing under Orton the Tebowels were sure it was all Orton’s fault and wouldn’t tolerate any discussion of the weak OL or the problems with the game planning. Now of course that is all we are hearing about from them.

    I think what annoys me the most are comments like “the great thing about Tebow is at last we have an NFL player we can root for without worrying about his personal life.” That has to be extremely annoying to guys like Reggie White (or his family), Jerry Rice, Kurt Warner, etc. etc. etc. etc. It’s as though to Tebow’s fans you can’t be a good person if you aren’t wearing your religion on your sleeve. Ironic, given that I recall Jesus was quoted as disapproving of people who do just that.

  14. Sherri says:

    Another annoying thing about the Tebow promoters is the whole “it’s just his 5th start” excuse. The last time I saw a qb look that clueless starting, it was Max Hall starting for the Cardinals. They quickly decided that Derek Anderson wasn’t quite so bad after all. Max Hall went to BYU, so I assume Jesus was on his side, too.

    • witless chum says:

      That’s the Romney Jesus and he’s the wrong one, I think. I think Dan Orlovsky had about five starts (he’s mostly known for nonchalantly running out the back of his own endzone, but he did throw a 90-some yard TD pass to Megatron at some point. Maybe the Broncos should give him a try?

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