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Sexism on the Left

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Despite what sectors of the on-line left wanted to believe the Bernie Bro thing very real and very toxic. And of course we see this overtly sexist behavior come out continually from said bros. But this isn’t just an online thing. There’s huge problems with unexamined toxic masculinity on the left. Groups like the Black Bloc idolize such behavior. Other guys go to leftist meetings in no small part to get laid. These are real things and have been for a very long time. For just as long, women have had to deal with this behavior and have too often accepted or internalized it. Beginning with women such as Casey Hayden standing up to sexism in SNCC, we have seen women aggressively attack this overt sexism, but it continues. It can really tear organizations apart, as is happening right now on the radical left in Providence.

As the left grows as part of the resistance to Trump, we see a big boom in DSA membership. I haven’t gone down this road because it doesn’t seem a very good use of my time, but that’s an evaluation anyone has to make for themselves. Let a thousand flowers bloom. In any case, it’s hardly surprising that DSA meetings are also full of rampant sexism. This is a really good essay on combating sexism in the DSA that we can adapt for whatever organizations we work with.

1. Feminism is a socialist issue, and women’s issues should not be ignored in favour of more “serious” issues. It’s not unusual to watch people on the left dismiss action on simple issues. Why? Lord if only I knew. Maybe it’s to fulfil the left’s obsession with needlessly overcomplicating things. Maybe it’s latent sexism. I neither know nor care, the problem exists and the answer is simple: don’t do that. Simple issues are no less meaningful than complex ones and can often be a helpful recruiting tool. If women see that socialist organisations are getting involved in educational fights, or in women’s health fights, they will be more likely to see utility in joining those organisations.

2. Don’t let men dominate discussions. It sounds obvious, hell, it is obvious, but it’s one of the biggest mistakes I see socialist groups making. There are simple and effective fixes to this, that, when implemented correctly flow so fluidly it’s almost impossible to tell that the men in the room are being decentralised. Strategies like taking stack are helpful because they help minimize moments of tokenisation (instances like, “Are we sure there aren’t any female-identifying people who’d like to speak right now?”) but also help to put the wider group at ease with one another.

3. Create a community. While this applies to left organising in general, I cannot stress its importance enough in helping to make socialist spaces palatable to women. Providing a system of resources and support to your socialist organisation will help encourage not only women but also the less timid left-inclined folks to get involved. Minor adjustments, like providing free childcare at meetings, ample notice for events, and accessible systems of redress for sexual harassment or gender discrimination can provide women with the comfort and security they need to turn out to socialist groups.

4. Don’t overwork your non-male members. If I had a penny for every organisation I’ve seen with three severely overworked non-male members and 30 very relaxed male members, I would be a very rich woman indeed. Things like all women shortlists are good, and truly a wonderful way to engage women, but if it ends up that your all women shortlists are made up of the same few women over and over, consider abandoning some of those fights until you have more non-male members to fill the slots. It’s a controversial suggestion, but if you’d like to prevent all your female members from burning out, you’re going to have to make some sacrifices while you work on the gender balance.

5. Mentoring is more beneficial than most realise. If you just rolled your eyes at that because it’s such a feature of liberal groups, trust me comrade, I feel you. But at the same time, having more experienced women available to mentor younger women can make a difference in helping women stick around. There are a lot of unique challenges women face when they make their way into the world of activism and organising, and having someone who has faced the same obstacles before to provide guidance is invaluable.

This seems to be relevant to anything we do, DSA members or not.

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  • Ramon A. Clef

    Don’t let men dominate discussions.

    This very simple web app is very helpful in keeping an eye on how much men are dominating a discussion. I’ve used it in tech meetups that I am involved in, and occasionally just when I’m talking to female friends & family.

    • Troll Comment Deleted

      Troll Comment Deleted

  • Hercules Mulligan

    This is very good and smart. A friend of mine and I joined DSA at the same time a few weeks back, and she very quickly discovered that there is no formal anti-harassment policy in our chapter! Luckily after a little bit of yelling they acknowledged this was embarrassingly inadequate, and we’re drafting a policy right now.

  • Karen24

    Please allow me to add:

    Don’t make appearance an issue. Comments about Kellyanne Conway being ugly are just as sexist as are comments about Hillary Clinton’s ‘cankles’ or Huma Abedin’s lovely hair. Unless you’re being hired as an image consultant or are already such an old and trusted friend that you know you can have such conversations, none of your opinions on anyone’s looks is remotely relevant to leftist politics. Also, this includes the appearance of people who adopt conventional middle or upper class dress standards. My job really doesn’t allow me to wear hammer and sickle T-shirts and I like having painted nails, thankyouverymuch.

    Do vary meeting times and locations Accommodate people with little kids, kids in school, and changeable work schedules.

    Make sure there are actions other than demonstrations or calling politicians. Introverts need activism, too, and we should work to include them. I like confronting people and arguing, but I am not typical.

    • CP

      Make sure there are actions other than demonstrations or calling politicians. Introverts need activism, too, and we should work to include them. I like confronting people and arguing, but I am not typical.

      Oh, I like this one.

      • Karen24

        This is a huge failure of political activists. We’re good and talking to people and somehow forget that about half the population would prefer to wrestle angry rattlesnakes than approach strangers about contentious issues.

        • You aren’t wrong, but on the other hand, there really isn’t any other way to organize effectively without talking to people about contentious issues.

          • Karen24

            You are quite correct. I do think, though, that there have to be roles for people who aren’t very good at that kind thing but still want to help. Heck, having someone bring snacks for block walking would be wonderful, and politics runs on coffee.

            • Snuff curry

              Provided those tasks don’t, as they invariably do, become both gendered and obligatory (recalling to mind the preferred position of women in SNCC, for example), sure. But feeding the troops is usually over-performed, rather than under.

            • Abbey Bartlet

              You are quite correct. I do think, though, that there have to be roles for people who aren’t very good at that kind thing but still want to help. Heck, having someone bring snacks for block walking would be wonderful, and politics runs on coffee.

              The best part about being at HFA all the time in October was that I literally didn’t have to go shopping for days because of all the free food.

            • Philip

              +1. I hate hate hate hate canvassing and I know I’m terrible at it. I can do protests but they’re exhausting. To put it in extremely nerdy terms: my natural role is Social Justice Support Class, not SJW. The problem is that actually finding those roles usually requires, you know, spending a bunch of time with large groups of strangers first.

              At the airport protests I helped organize food and water and stuff and that was exactly my speed. Chanting and marching with signs, not so much.

              • Karen24

                And your skills will be needed much more in the next few years.

                • STH

                  Here’s an idea I love: a local group here in eastern Washington state has started meeting on Sunday afternoons to write postcards to our Representative, Senators, whoever. They set up Facebook event pages and you can RSVP there. I think this is a great way to involve introverts who have a hard time making calls and doing other kinds of activism.

                • Abbey Bartlet

                  This seems like an excellent place to plug http://bitly.com/callyourstaterep. States are gonna be crucial in the next few years.

          • John Revolta

            From each according to their abilities. Or something.

    • Murc

      Don’t make appearance an issue.

      Jesus god, thank you, Karen.

      This happens here, on this blog, every time some awful conservative lady gets brought up. It isn’t just appearance; people talk about, say, Megyn Kelly or Ann Coulter or the aforementioned Kellyanne Conway using disgustingly gendered insults.

      I think Kieron Gillen said it best, that it is possible to vilify a woman without using language that only exists to vilify women.

      • Ramon A. Clef

        Seconded.

        • Lost Left Coaster

          Thirded. I’m happy that there are always plenty of commenters here at LGM ready to call this shit out, but I remain dismayed that so many people here and at other places still do this.

          • Brett

            Fourthed.

      • vic rattlehead

        And my god, Conway especially is such a nightmare of a human being, it just drives me crazy to see misogynistic jackholes derail that to talk about her looks.

        TV hosts like Megyn Kelly, I mean, people are hired to be on TV at least in part based on their looks. I mean, Shep Smith wasn’t hired because of his brilliant mind. Doesn’t excuse misogyny, and women get looks based criticism more than men, but a pleasant appearance is a large part of how people get on TV.

        • Karen24

          Exactly. Conway is a foul waste of oxygen, which can be proven by pretty much every single thing she says. Her looks shouldn’t even be in the first couple of hundred problems we have with her.

          And good point about TV speakers. Looking good is part of the job for everyone in that position. I would even go so far as to state that for certain types of public positions that being a slob should be disqualifying. (Michael Moore — get rid of the damned cap and get your goddam suit pressed when you go to an awards show.)

          • vic rattlehead

            This may seem silly but one of the things that drove me crazy about more was that he dressed like a slob in his own damn movies! Like ok man you’re the boss but you look like my uncle who’s always half in the bag by the early afternoon.

          • Asteroid_Strike_Brexit

            It’s ok to call someone a ‘foul waste of oxygen’, but suggesting she isn’t exactly Taylor Swift is off limits?

            • Snuff curry

              suggesting she isn’t exactly Taylor Swift

              What does that even mean

            • sonamib

              It’s ok to call someone a ‘foul waste of oxygen’

              Yes, you’re right, we shouldn’t use language that can only be used to insult aerobic organisms. We should use language that also applies to anaerobic ones, like “waste of energy”!

            • Origami Isopod

              You’re really pitching the hot takes this week, aren’t you?

          • TopsyJane

            And good point about TV speakers. Looking good is part of the job for everyone in that position.

            There are some pretty boy anchors, especially these days, but there are a lot more men on TV news who aren’t going to win any kind of beauty contests, while their female counterparts are notably well above the average lookswise.

    • Lord Jesus Perm

      Do vary meeting times and locations Accommodate people with little kids, kids in school, and changeable work schedules.

      Love this one.

    • vic rattlehead

      My job really doesn’t allow me to wear hammer and sickle T-shirts

      Ok. I’m sorry, I can’t resist. This is one of my favorite t-shirts.

      • Karen24

        That is brilliant!

    • TopsyJane

      You should feel free to enjoy painting yourself wherever you please, but I see a lot of women in nail salons spending a significant portion of their time and discretionary income on fancy nail treatments. I see women whose nails are permanently stained from paint. Both sexes should attend to the state of their nails and I don’t want to put the salons out of business, but whenever I visit one I always wonder how the world might be different if women didn’t feel obliged to spend so much time on trivia related to appearances.

  • howard
  • veleda_k

    It would be lovely if being liberal or leftist guaranteed a person couldn’t be prejudiced, but of course it’s just not so. Believing that because our politics are morally superior to the right, we are therefore pure and incapable of bigotry poisons the movement.

    • Karen24

      One of the most painful lessons of growing up is that pretty much everyone is a jerk about something, and there is no such thing as a perfectly pure of heart person. The best we can do is keep working.

    • STH

      Another thing that poisons the movement is the attitude that thou shalt not point out the sexism within the movement because it makes liberals look bad. If you tell women to keep quiet and “take one for the team,” you may as well be grabbing asses yourself.

  • kped

    This is something the atheist community learnt a couple of years back. A lot of people thought that since it was a community of “skeptics” and the like, they would be more open to women…but that turned out to be false, and at high levels it was just the same sexist boys club, and that filtered down to much of the active young men as well. Richard Dawkins lost a lot of fans over his “coming out” as a sexist dick.

    Sadly, this shit doesn’t have a neatly defined border. Liberal, conservative, believer, atheist, all can be sexist.

    • tsam

      That aggressive atheist (the ones who just can’t seem to shut the fuck up about it) crowd is loaded with sexist fucking pigs. Bill Maher is part of that group. (Not to be arguing your obviously correct point)

      • Learned the hard way about this. I was SO DEPRESSED when I learned that so many online atheists were such assholes.

        • Lost Left Coaster

          Yeah. I admire the hard work that so many people are putting in to combat sexism in online atheist communities. But that kind of shit pretty much drove me away from organized atheism altogether.

        • tsam

          Learned the hard way about this. I was SO DEPRESSED when I learned that so many online atheists were such assholes.

          Yeah–I don’t know what it is that attracts them. It’s kind of weird. I actually personally know a couple of them–they call themselves leftists, but shared that meme of Kellyanne Conway as the alien–alongside Sigourney Weaver…sexist as fuck. Called them out, they couldn’t believe I would stick up for such a c***. I fucking give up.

        • Brett

          There were and are a fair number of men for whom atheism is about validating their sense of superiority above other people.

          • Lost Left Coaster

            Oh yes. I used to work for an atheist organization — not going to name it because I wish to continue posting pseudonymously. But I encountered a lot of people like this throughout my work.

      • delazeur

        I am atheist, but I have never understood people who are really excited about atheism.

        • Ramon A. Clef

          Kind of like being enthusiastic about not collecting comic books.

          • Aardvark Cheeselog

            Kind of like being enthusiastic about not collecting comic books.

            This remark would not be annoying and clueless if only comic book collectors were considered first-class citizens.

        • kped

          Not necessarily excited, but a lot of them like to do organized events to kind of show that yes, we exist and aren’t criminals. It’s a decent push back against the overt religious displays we so often see, but sadly, a lot of the “leaders” (Dawkins, Sam Harris, Maher) are racist, sexist pigs.

          Dawkins exposed himself with his comments to a female atheist online (Rebecca Watson, aka Skepchick). She did a vlog (in a light hearted manner no less), about an atheist conference she attended. Talking about how at about 4 AM, some guy in the conference approached her and invited her to his room. They were drinking, it was late (again, 4AM), and they were the only two in the elevator. She said “don’t do that”. That’s it. Not a harsh critique, just saying it’s a scary thing for a single woman at 4 AM to be in that position. Dawkins lost his shit with some awful blog post, and he hasn’t looked back.

          http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Elevatorgate

          • Brett

            That was the weirdest fucking thing. I remember Dawkins showing up in the comments of PZ Myers’ blog and wondering what the fuck was going on (I honestly thought it was either a faker, or he was drunk).

            In any case, be it atheism or leftist causes, that’s another bullet point for a list on dealing with sexism and bringing women more into leftist causes: don’t react as a defensive shithead when you get criticized by a woman.

            • Snuff curry

              Just as a reminder, though, Dawkins wasn’t even being criticized, had not even been mentioned. Dear Muslima was literally an unsolicited non-sequitur, and an orientalist fantasy he consistently returns to whenever he wants to say something racist under the guise of being female-friendly or vice-versa.

              • kped

                His other major meltdown was his attacks on “clock boy”. That story fucking enraged Dawkins, and he went around the clock ripping a child. I mean…what a fucking asshole. Imagine being a world famous professor, media personality and author, and going out of your way to rip into a 14 year old child because you resented his poor grammar (he was literally fuming that the kid said he “invented” his clock, which was obvioulys a poor word choice, and no doubt Ahmed didn’t think he actually invented fucking clocks, but this enraged Dawkins to no end, and of course, “it’s a conspiracy! the kid is faking it!”)

                I have no respect for that man.

                • Snuff curry

                  Fucking hell, what a clusterfuck of petty spitefulness, conspiracy theory, and unadorned Islamophobia. I may be remembering incorrectly, but did he not uncritically re-tweet or cite Breitbart at one point?

                • Q.E.Dumbass

                  Is it me, or did Maher & Dawkins’ degeneration into Orientalism take place mostly during the Obama years?

                • Abbey Bartlet

                  THANKS OBAMA.

                • @dumbass: Not in Maher’s case. If anything, he’s calmed down a bit since post-9/11.

                • kped

                  I’m sure he has uncritically tweeted them. He has favorably tweeted comments from *ahem* “feminist” Christina Hoff Sommers, the feminist of such feminist books as “The War on Boys”. The feminists he likes are the ones who tend to say “women are mean to men”.

                • Lost Left Coaster

                  I don’t know, I think that maybe Dawkins was always this kind of jackass and it was more just growing public awareness of this fact (facilitated by the advent of Twitter) that grew during those years.

                • Q.E.Dumbass

                  @stepped: I watched it around 2005 to last year; my impression was that Real Time’s anti-Islamic sentiment was predominantly on a religious basis during the Bush years, and that he completely lost around the South Park 201 controversy (albeit not to the extent of Sam Harris). I only recall seeing him cool down in the last year or so, largely due to Trump.

                • kped

                  The thing that annoys me about Maher is his “Durr, the right is so anti-Science, what stupid dummies”

                  Now…I agree…but then…

                  “Durr, vaccines aren’t proven, and i just do cleanses, all you need to not get cancer or the flu is to not put toxins in your body, and I’M JUST ASKING QUESTIONS”.

                  Fuck that guy and his anti-science nonsense. (hint: Vaccines are among the most tested and effective medications out there and have saved MILLIONS, possibly BILLIONS of lives.)

                  He is the worst messenger for “science” there is.

                • Q.E.Dumbass

                  Is there any public figure more comprehensibly wrong on health science than William Maher SUPERGENIUS?

                • Abbey Bartlet

                  Is there any public figure more comprehensibly wrong on health science than William Maher SUPERGENIUS?

                  “You rang?” -J. Stein

                • @dumbass: I’m sure it’s waxed and waned, but I know that on his standup tour after Politically Incorrect being cancelled he had a lot of straightforward war-of-civilizations shit (I recall an image of the Statue of Liberty wearing a veil, even).

                  If you started watching around 2005, that’s around when the public started turning on Bush and media figures like Maher started parachuting away from anything remotely resembling Bush-ism. (Katrina was August 2005; that was the deathblow to the remaining fragile superstructure of respect for Bush as a “war president”.) 2002-2004 was a fantastically Islamophobic period in American history that honestly outstrips anything we’ve seen since — even now — since at least now there’s a partisan divide.

                • Q.E.Dumbass

                  Nope– Maher is still easily far worse.

                • Abbey Bartlet

                  Jill is worse, because she’s a DOCTOR and should know better.

              • Q.E.Dumbass

                Jill knows better but is pandering to three idiotic viewpoints. Dickface knows next to nothing regarding health science, and still denies pathogenicity in the fucking 2010s.

        • tsam

          I’m one too, but I’m not going to let myself feel superior to the 5(?) billion people on the planet who aren’t atheists, and I’m not going to use a public forum to call everyone who doesn’t agree with my atheism an irrational idiot. Being an atheist isn’t some kind of philosophical coup, and plenty of people that are WAY smarter than I am subscribe to some sort of spirituality or religion.

          • bender

            I’m a theist. I respect atheists and have no desire to change their views.

            My views derive from my experience. I think it is perfectly natural that people with different experiences have different views.

            Late in my father’s life, I asked him whether he was an atheist. He said that he was agnostic, because he didn’t see any reason to believe in God or gods, but it wasn’t the kind of question that anyone could be absolutely certain of the answer to. I think that is a rational position.

            • witlesschum

              I prefer to call my self an atheist, but it sounds like I believe exactly what your dad did. I figure every belief about reality is by definition provisional and could be changed with new evidence, so it doesn’t seem wrong to consider myself an atheist even though I admit that I can’t 100 percent prove to myself that’s right.

        • StellaB

          I’m an apatheist. There is nothing more boring than religion and pro football.

          • Lost Left Coaster

            Funny to think which of those two opinions is the more controversial one here at LGM.

          • tsam

            That probably better describes me. Don’t know if a (or any number of) deities exist, and don’t care to spend time worrying about it. As for football, I watch but don’t know as much as Scott and can’t find the energy to follow it that closely.

            • witlesschum

              I think my college’s sports teams may fufill the role in my life which religion may fill in others’ lives.

              • Solar System Wolf

                Go Bucks?

          • sk7326

            Yeah. I do some of the rites of the religion – partially because of childhood wiring, partially so the kids (4.5 and 1.5) have culture.

            But I just don’t find the “being in the sky” question at all interesting.

        • sk7326

          I think there is a level of bullying among some of the more prominent professional atheists.

          First of all, they are arguing a point which is – empirically – fairly obvious, at least to them. (now while the answer is “unknowable”, the evidence clearly leans in the atheist direction) It is hard to respect non-atheists when it is so obvious to you.

          But really – professional atheism seems to me a spiritual cousin of many of the Jill Stein/BernieBro left. In the atheist case, if only these “theists” knew the facts, they would be convinced and perhaps religion would lose its grip (which is not a bad thing per se). But of course, this ignores the numerous other reasons that people might choose religion. (family, cultural literacy et al)

  • Q.E.Dumbass

    Somewhat related: TNR doubles down on “Alt-left?What alt-left?”

    In all fairness, while the characterization in the original VH piece is about 95% accurate, I’d say that “alt-left” is not a particularly good metonym for this section of the left — it’s certainly an apt descriptor for those self-identifying leftists whose hatred for “identity politics” is a transparent cover for racism and/or misogyny (Tracey, Fang, Chapo Trap House),* but it’s too loaded a term to be representative of this broader sect of “thought.” (I’d also add that grouping Scahill and the entire staff of the Intercept is completely unfair). “Pain ponies,” “the eXile left,” or “antisofas” (thanks for that last one, Davis X. Machina!) would probably serve as better names for those lefties whose most pressing ideological concern is their all-consuming hatred for the Democratic Party (here meaning “leftists & liberals who don’t agree with me 99% of the time).

    *Dickface Maher’s views on Asians, women and sexual minorities are bad enough that he’s normally go here, but he lacks the obsession with ideological purity that defines purity wanking; his situation is really more similar to that of Dershowitz and Saban’s.

    • Hercules Mulligan

      Using the very real presence of prejudice on the left to slam Clio Chang’s broader work at TNR is pretty offensive. The author of the DSA piece Erik shares would certainly have been considered “alt-left” by that horrible Wolcott piece.

      And speaking of sexism on the “left,” Wolcott called CHELSEA MANNING an “ungrateful” “Bernie Bro” for criticizing Obama post-clemency. So fuck him very much.

      • Aexia

        There’s plenty of women I would consider to be Bernie Bros.

        • Murc

          It’s a bit difficult, no? Can you actually be a bro if you aren’t a disgusting misogynist? (This isn’t to say women can’t be misogynist, but it seems like the ratio will be heavily tilted towards dudes.)

          • Brien Jackson

            “Bernie Bro” really only defines the Sanders supporters who were aggressively harassing Clinton supporting women and PoC during the primary, and I don’t think it holds well as a desccriptor now. Alt-left works well enough to my mind, though the Wolcott article really was not well written. If nothing else it really needed more space to define the concept, since the alt-left really isn’t aligned around a coherent ideology as we normally understand it.

            • Q.E.Dumbass

              Huh: I thought it was pretty obvious that Wolcott’s article was describing purity-obsessives — and in restrictive-enough terms that Jones (and to a lesser extent Chang’s)’ personal offense was both uncalled-for and rather telling. Although I’d also be personally offended at being in any way associating with Michael Tracey. (And it case it wasn’t totally clear, for all his faults Scahill absolutely does not deserve being grouped together with the rest of these assclowns.)

              • los

                Those who Went Infowars aren’t even berniebros.
                I haven’t tracked any, but ha!goodman is the only former berner who I strongly sense went to the dark side.

      • Q.E.Dumbass

        Ok, so I’ve read Levitz’ criticism of the Wolcott piece, and I’d say that its ultimate problem lies in being mostly accurate (actually more like 80%) but especially shallow, especially the inclusion of Kaus. The blindingly obvious problem is that Chang’s piece is written in affirmation of Sarah Jones’ Minutes post last Friday — which jettisons meritable criticism entirely in favor of the anti-anti-purity wanking route that denies there’s any problem at all — and while Chang at least makes an honest effort at criticizing Wolcott on the merits, there’s enough synergy between Jones and Chang ideologically that I’m not inclined to give Clio much slack. (And so what if I broadly don’t love me her work at TNR?)

      • liberal

        And speaking of sexism on the “left,” Wolcott called CHELSEA MANNING an “ungrateful” “Bernie Bro” for criticizing Obama post-clemency. So fuck him very much.

        Uh, no. You see, only “the left”, “Bernie Bros”, etc, are valid targets of criticism.

        People like Barack Obama (who appointed Comey and oversaw the decline in the Democratic Party at the state level during a time when he was the leader of the Party) and Hillary Clinton (whose loss in Nov is due to a variety of factors, for none of which she’s responsible) can never be criticized.

        • What the fuck does this have to do with discussions of sexism on the left?

          • Phil Perspective

            Because, again, you’d rather beat up on Sanders rather than address the actual issues. Where is your criticism of David Brock and his minions? Did Brock ever apologize for being a misogynist scumbag? How about Peter Daou? I could go on and on but you’d rather beat a dead horse rather that address the whole sexism problem and the fact that women to the left of you are treated in a sexist manner by centrist and weak-kneed muppets like yourself & Wolcott.

            • What did I say bad about Sanders? Nothing. It’s not his fault if some of his followers are idiots.

              As for me being a “centrist weak kneed muppet” how many union members have you signed up this week? Fewer than I have. How many fledgling union efforts have asked you to lend a hand today? Fewer than have asked me.

              I know you are about ready to announce your plan for socialists to take over Alabama any day.

              So fuck you and your constant posturing. Until you do something real.

              • kped

                Great comment :) So many fucking poseurs on the left, and the gall to criticize you for not hating the same “neoliberal” people, is disgusting. You are actually doing real left work, with your book and your posts, and your real world activism. And these fucking do nothing clowns want to criticize you because…you only attacked one sides’ misogynist losers and not the others? Is that what’s fucking important?

                Keep doing what you are doing Erik, let the clowns keep clowning.

                • Brien Jackson

                  Gonna keep saying this: Been to two meetings with new groups in my CD in the past 8 days, and STILL haven’t run into a single fucking Bernie Bro/alt-left/purity pony type. Go figure!

                • kped

                  They don’t go to meetings or do actual work. For all of FdB’s talk, he admits to having left actual organizing politics/doing something after Ned Lamont lost to Lieberman. That was his first and last attempt at actually doing anything of value. Those guys are all talk, all “you’re doing it wrong”, but they don’t get their hands dirty. Poseurs.

                • Brien Jackson

                  Right. And the online ones are mostly people who imagined they’d be media titans directing people from their blogs and making the big bucks. They have no interest whatsoever in doing work.

                • EliHawk

                  Organizing for Ned Lamont as your claim to doing progressivism right amuses me to no end because, other than going “I hate Iraq/W” Lamont was, if anything, more ‘neoliberal’ or whatever. He literally had ads touting how he was going to run government more like a business. When he was a cable company executive. It’s like Peak BONERS ideological nonsensitude.

              • manual

                Ive spent the last 10 years working for union members everday. Does that make me beyond reproach?

            • veleda_k

              So, the answer to Loomis’s question, “What the fuck does this have to do with discussions of sexism on the left?” is, “Absolutely nothing.” Okay, thanks for playing.

            • nemdam

              Yes, if there is one thing Peter Daou is known for it’s being a sexist.

              And I’m not sure specifically what you are referencing with David Brock, but he has repudiated his conservative ways. This includes his Anita Hill stuff.

        • Abbey Bartlet

          People like Barack Obama (who appointed Comey and oversaw the decline in the Democratic Party at the state level during a time when he was the leader of the Party) and Hillary Clinton (whose loss in Nov is due to a variety of factors, for none of which she’s responsible) can never be criticized.

          If you’d like to explain why Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton are sexist, be my guest.

      • The problem with the Wolcott piece isn’t that he’s wrong. It’s that he doesn’t really understand the left so he doesn’t know who to attack. Putting Mark Ames and Glenn Greenwald together–who hate each other–was just one huge red flag. There were all sorts of errors in article on a topic that could have been useful if it was carefully crafted instead of sounding like Chait complaining that people were mean to him at Michigan in the 80s.

        • Q.E.Dumbass

          Besides the concern for ideological purity, I think the connecting thread there is anti-anti-Russianism –IIRC, last year he said investigating Russian involvement in the DNC hacks would encourage discriminating against Russian-Americans. They definitely belong to different parts of the purity/pain caucus, though — Ames is more in the brocialist/alt-left mold, while GG is a distinctly of the NEO-MCCARTHYISM!!11!1 wing.

          • Maybe, but I doubt Wolcott could articulate that. There are so many errors in that article.

          • Brien Jackson

            There’s not really a genuine demand for ideological purity, though. That’s only about creating lines of demarcations to justify constant in-fighting, because ultimately that’s all this group really cares about.

            Also too, a good chunk of the alt-left (see Cenk and, previously, Hamsher/Greenwald) has devolved into a grift already.

            • nemdam

              The ideological purity of the different factions may not be the same, but what is similar about them is the demand for purity of whatever ideology they hold. In other words, if you don’t ascribe exactly to my views you are NEOLIBERAL.

          • kped

            I think Glenn belongs in the new wing “THE ONLY THING THAT IS IMPORTANT IS PERCEIVED LIBERAL HYPOCRISY. NOTHING ELSE MATTERS. TRUMP IS A DISTRACTION FROM THIS IMPORTANT TOPIC”.

    • nemdam

      I’ve never associated the “alt-left” or whatever it’s called with primarily being sexist or against identity politics. I’ve always thought it is about those on the left who demand ideological purity for any politician or party that asks for their support, and if they don’t get it, then to viciously attack them with meaningless name calling like “establishment”, “neoliberal”, or “corporate sellouts”. For this definition, I found the article quite good. And I should note that this demand for ideological purity includes those who disdain identity politics which is generally made up of not the best people.

      • Q.E.Dumbass

        We already have “purity pony” for that, don’t we? And given what “alt-right” actually means, it’s far better reserved as a descriptor for the Tracey/Fang “leftists,” as opposed to purity wankers in general.

    • manual

      Fang is such a racist. He even hates his asian heritage. Sad.

      • Origami Isopod

        You do realize that Asian people can be bigoted against black people, Latin’s, et al?

        • Aexia

          Fang and Jilani in particular have had many, shall we say, “racially tinged interactions” with their critics of color.

        • Origami Isopod

          Stupid autocorrect. Latinos.

          • Abbey Bartlet

            Latinxs, surely?

            • Origami Isopod

              Thanks, that’s a better idea.

              • Nepos

                I like “[email protected] / [email protected]” myself.

                • Origami Isopod

                  I’ve seen debate between progressives of the relevant ethnicities over which is the best term to use. I’m more inclined to go with your suggestion, but in general I’ll call the demographic whatever the person I’m talking to who belongs to it thinks it should be called.

    • Colin Day

      Maher complains that people don’t laugh at his “jokes”. But even if (for the sake of argument) Asian-Americans s are statistically worse drivers than other Americans, is it funny? I don’t have enough experience on the topic to laugh at this.

      And don’t get me started on Chris Rock’s “A black woman can’t be First Lady”.

  • Merkwürdigliebe

    Other guys go to leftist meetings in no small part to get laid.

    Guys go to all sorts of places in no small part to get laid. Women (since we’re generalizing) also go to many places to get laid. Is that, in and of itself, a bad thing?

    If a guy subsequently harasses someone, that is clearly a problem. But an intention to get laid…?

    • jam

      Was Loomis’s intent unclear? Is there a reason to give him an uncharitable reading in that?

      Or is it perfectly plain that those 13 words might relate to the post title?

      Going to a political meeting in large part to find a sex partner isn’t acceptable and people who do that probably aren’t participating in good faith or paying much attention to the quality of ideas that other people express.

      If you have a similar-length phrasing you’d prefer Loomis to use, please feel free to share.

    • Murc

      Guys go to all sorts of places in no small part to get laid. Women (since we’re generalizing) also go to many places to get laid. Is that, in and of itself, a bad thing?

      If you’re going to political activism meetings to do it? Yes, it is, because you are wasting everyones time and that is a dick move.

      You want to get laid? There are bars, clubs, and apps for that. Don’t show up to activism if you aren’t there to activist. It’s important work, not a convenient place to hook up.

      • human

        JFC, thanks for saying what shouldn’t have to be fucking said. Good lord.

      • AMK

        There are bars, clubs and apps for that

        What if—I’m just going out on a limb here–some people do activism because it’s a social activity, and some people who have that interest in common will naturally take things to the next level? I like bars and clubs, but I’m met plenty of more introverted people (men and women) who don’t, and so prefer to use more cerebral activities like political clubs where they can meet others like them, for friends or more. There’s nothing wrong with that.

        • Obviously, relationships will emerge out of organizing. But that’s different than going there to hook up.

          • Brien Jackson

            I think “hook up” is the operative term here. Sure, if you think “hey I’m interested in that form of activism and it’d be awesome to meet some people and make some friends who share that interest” then sure, nothing wrong there. And if a romantic relationship develops well good for you.

            But that’s different than inserting yourself in someone else’s genuine work when you’re only interested in trolling for sex.

          • Merkwürdigliebe

            But that’s different than going there to hook up.

            Most people have a mixture of variously strong motivations for their actions and sex appears in that mix rather often.

    • Lost Left Coaster

      Um…I’m all for people getting laid. But I am not all for that being the reason that people go to meetings that are entirely unrelated to hooking people up for this purpose. Bad things often bubble up under those circumstances.

    • Merkwürdigliebe

      I’m going to take a step back here: What sets me off is first the assumption of a discrete intent, separable from all other factors that play out in people’s heads when deciding what to do with their evening. It’s not necessarily exclusively one or exclusively the other.

      Second, it’s the policing of intent. For starters, there is no way to practically enforce that in any way. Additionally, it’s a thought crime. Unless the people coming in act in a disruptive way, their primary motivation for showing up is irrelevant.

      I admit that I’ve latched on to the wording of this particular sentence and I’ve not given it the most charitable reading within the whole context of this post.

      • Snuff curry

        “Not harassing people is ‘hard’ and ‘complicated’ [and that’s the way I like it and I’m going to continue to say so because it muddies actually quite clear waters in a way that benefits and enables abusers and gaslights victims]”

      • veleda_k

        Oh, for god’s sake. I can think someone’s thoughts are gross or unethical without it being “thought crime.”

        But thanks for sticking up for men who want to get laid. Truly, a more deserving and oppressed group there never was.

    • Snuff curry

      Given that there is ample evidence, gleaned from het men attempting to use everything from AA to Atheism+ as a dating pool from which one may select future victims under the cloak of solidarity or right-on politics, that “trying to get laid” often results in harassment and abuse, yes, it’s a problem.

      Examples abound. He Who Must Not Be Named, Richard Carrier, Hart Noecker, Jamie Kilstein, et al.

      • The Great God Pan

        Oh, Kilstein got caught doing something? I always thought he gave off sketchy vibes and was amused at how readily he seemed to be accepted as a champion of feminism. I assumed something would turn up sooner or later.

        Same deal with Carrier but I knew about his downfall and, really, no one should have been surprised.

        • Scott Lemieux
          • Attezz

            Jamie and I were best of friends when we both started out doing stand up around 2001 through about 2004 (when we both quit, before he eventually started doing slam poetry and then stand up again).

            When I told my wife what happened (not much of a surprise to most of us that knew him), her exact words were “Oh, a guy who once had sex with a pregnant 15 year old when he was 21 got caught being an abuser? How shocking”

            That pretty much summed it up.

            I think a lot of us really thought that he’d finally turned the corner when he got with Allison Kilkenny, sad to see that didn’t happen.

            Bad from the standpoint of the MRAs crowing about it, but perfect comeuppance for Jamie considering how holier-than-thou he became in the last 6 or 7 years.

            • Snuff curry

              I think a lot of us really thought that he’d finally turned the corner when he got with Allison Kilkenny

              Yikes. Mommies, gate-keepers, and now, saviors-from-themselves.

          • Origami Isopod

            Reading Alison Kilkenny’s post on the subject and ensuing thread, it sounds like a lot of listeners to their radio show were more and more turned off over time by Kilstein’s behavior, and “some of the guests stopped coming because Jamie was being a creep.”

            (Predictably, there are MRA douches in the comments.)

            Someone in there also links to this post from Nov. 2013 by a vegan feminist who was treated high-handedly by Kilstein for calling out his work with PETA. So he’s been terrible for quite a while.

            I didn’t know much about Kilstein other than having heard his name, but it’s never very surprising to me when a man who beats his chest about what a great feminist he is turns out to be an abuser. See also: Hugo Schwyzer.

      • Merkwürdigliebe

        a dating pool from which one may select future victims

        veleda_k above makes fun of me “for sticking up for men who want to get laid.” But since you apparently consider this group en bloc “perpetrators” just going after their “victims,” maybe it’s not so out of line.

        • libarbarian

          Jezebel on Kilstein

          “This is Jamie, he’s a feminist, he’s a safe person,” she explained of her thought process about the situation. …. “Essentially, he charmed me back to his hotel that night. I chose to go.” …. However, months later, Julie heard Kilstein refer to women he’d slept with on his tour as “road fucks” on the podcast

          *BANG HEAD ON DESK*

        • Nepos

          You’re not sticking up for men who want to get laid, you’re sticking up for men who bother women for sex at inappropriate venues.

          Men are not controlled by their sex drives–they can and should be able to recognize appropriate venues to look for sexual partners.

          The idea that men should be able to view any situation as an opportunity to get laid is one of the underlying causes of rape culture.

          • Merkwürdigliebe

            Just out of curiosity and not only in relation to political meetings: who exactly is in charge of deciding which venues are appropriate and which aren’t?

            • Nepos

              There are well established times and places where people get together with the intention of having sex, if possible. These vary from culture to culture, of course. For example, in America, bars and dance clubs are usually acceptable places to look for partners. Multi-purpose gatherings–such as conventions–can also be a place to find partners who share similar interests. There are a variety of online websites that can be used as well.

              But a social gathering with a specific purpose (other than a sex club) is NOT the place to look for sexual meetups. Whether it be the workplace, or a socialist meeting, or, hell, the local homeowners association meeting, it is rude and inappropriate to be there intending to find a sexual partner. This is just common courtesy.

              • Merkwürdigliebe

                You seem to have a curiously polar view of human interactions where people either “get together with the intention of having sex” or maintain a sterile distance, with nothing between the two.

                You might be surprised to find out that there is a whole spectrum of activities such as chatting or flirting that have some sexual charge but do not end up with immediate penetration ten minutes later. In my world people quite often first meet each other, recognize there is a spark, go on a couple of dates and then, if all goes well, “get together with the intention of having sex.” And, with the exception of funerals, job interviews and a couple of other situations, this process can start pretty much anywhere.

                The problem of anyone being inappropriate, obnoxious or outright abusive is a separate issue having to do with elementary good manners.

                • Nepos

                  Well, yeah, guilty as charged. I do believe that there are times and places where it is appropriate to seek sexual partners and times and places where it is inappropriate. Though I think we agree on that basic premise–the difference is that where we draw the line.

                • Merkwürdigliebe

                  Fair enough.

        • veleda_k

          Wow, you’re very defensive and thin-skinned about this topic.

    • Nick056

      Going to a political meeting to get laid is counterproductive and dumb. Sure, it’s marginally less bad than going to work to get laid, but for the most part, let’s keep hormones and hookups out of the process of building/reinforcing a political organization.

      • vic rattlehead

        Good lord I can’t imagine going to work to get laid. I would rather literally shit where I eat than date at work. I like keeping my work and personal life discrete, thank you very much.

        • Nick056

          Yeah. It’s … Not a good idea. And “work” includes conferences, travel, happy hour, etc.

          • los

            I’ve read that the largest of categories of couples’ first meeting places is workplaces.
            it’s believable because of:
            1. common interests
            2. huge amount of time spent at work, thus greater exposure.
            3. similar incomes, though I think this is a lesser factor.

      • libarbarian

        Going to a political meeting to get laid is counterproductive and dumb

        Actually, given the number of people who do this for years, it appears to be incredibly “productive” for their purposes.

        What is counterproductive and dumb is repeatedly falling for such obvious cons.

    • AMK

      Is that, in of itself, a bad thing?

      No.

  • Aexia

    I like how the first comment from “Johnnie” on the IWW post is a textbook example of Anita’s Law.

  • Murc

    Despite what sectors of the on-line left wanted to believe the Bernie Bro thing very real and very toxic.

    And I hate that it is true for three reasons.

    The first is, of course, the behavior and the worldview that undergirds it, which is sickening.

    The second is that, and I say this as someone who is all about factional infighting, it promotes some really ugly factional infighting.

    The third is that I hate that fuckin’ label. I don’t like what the word bro has come to connotate, and I especially don’t like that Sanders, who whatever else you think of him has a long and robust clear of public service, has had his name hung on them as an identifier. (At least ‘PUMA’ didn’t use Hillary Clinton’s name.)

    Lost philological battle but it honks me off.

    • Snuff curry

      Separating Sanders from his supporters and surrogates, Sanders still behaved like a bro and a whitesplainer all on his own, both recently and in the past, his “public service*” notwithstanding.

      *you don’t get one free rape-is-something-women-enjoy-student-y-‘satire’ per thousand hours public service, so this in particular and in turn honks me off, the notion (which this post addresses) that being right-on exempts or excuses men from criticism when doing and saying shitty, misogynist things (sometimes in an effort, as Sanders did, to get elected when running against Kunin, for example)

      • Brien Jackson

        Yeah, Sanders really didn’t do much to disavow them either, especially when the wheels came off of the campaign entirely in New York.

        • nemdam

          Right, which is why the term BernieBro sticks. Sanders does nothing to police or disavow his toxic supporters, and his statements and behavior ensure that he wants to keep the division going. After a while, you have to ask yourself why they keep doing what they do in his name. In contrast, the PUMAs quickly evaporated because Hillary made very clear that to be a supporter of her was to be a supporter of Obama and did everything she could to heal instead of maintain party divisions. I dunno, maybe working with a party is establishment politics or something so it’s bad.

      • LeeEsq

        Doesn’t this run into purity pony problems though? There isn’t a person on this planet who is perfect in every way every day. Everybody has many things they did or believed in the past that are deal breakers and signs of evil to somebody else. You run into some very dogmatic orthodox like thinking that way very fast. “Those who depart from the teachings of x on even the most minor point at anytime of life will be exiled from the movement and their polluted contagions removed from all politics” and “There will be One True Leftist Thought, One True Political Revolution.” Your not going to find anybody that meets that standard.

        • Snuff curry

          That’s just lazy straw. Who here precisely is saying that engaging in shitty behavior makes one beyond the pale? It’d be a wonderful first step if bros of any stripe or creed could simply acknowledge their male heroes do fuck up in everyday matters, sometimes repeatedly, and that they have blind spots needing addressing. From what I observed, purity was very much a two-way street this past election. If we’re fine Neo-Libbing!!1! someone, their opponent can very much weather modest critiques about his tendency towards reverting to feigned color- and genderblindness when he finds himself in a tight spot or navigating, for him, uncharted waters.

        • Origami Isopod

          “Don’t be an asshole” != “Be perfect.”

          Unless, of course, one is an asshole.

    • Abbey Bartlet

      Cool story.

      • Murc

        Thank you! I appreciate having you on-side for once.

        • This short exchange has me entirely confused, since either or both of the two comments that it comprises could very well be sarcastic, and I just can't decide.

          • Abbey Bartlet

            It’s a mystery wrapped in an enigma.

            • Murc

              Wrapped in a vest!

          • Nick056

            I blame Democrat perfidy.

    • human

      Yeah, if you’re a dude, and your supporters are harassing women and doing all sorts of shitty sexist things in the process of supporting you, and you don’t come out HARD against that, you’re part of the problem. Alas.

      • los

        I suspect that Coulter’s…

        supporters are harassing women and doing all sorts of shitty sexist things in the process of supporting

        Coulter.

    • Incontinentia Buttocks

      I don’t think it’s a lost philological battle. Language matters. Let’s denounce sexism on the left by calling it sexism on the left. It’s a real problem and we need to address it. People who contribute to the problem can be called sexist leftists (or liberals or progressives) or, if we feel like it, left misogynists. We can fight this important battle without using tendentious terms like “Bernie Bros,” which unfairly associates Bernie Sanders with misogyny, or “alt left,” which was more or less coined in that lousy Wolcott piece, doesn’t clearly indicate sexism or misogyny, and makes an analogy with the alt right that is incredibly loose.

      • Abbey Bartlet

        which unfairly associates Bernie Sanders with misogyny,

        Some of us would dispute this characterization rather emphatically.

        • Incontinentia Buttocks

          Let’s have that discussion then. I’m certainly not willing to accept it as axiomatic. And fwiw I am entirely in sympathy with the points in that DSA piece quoted by Erik.

          • Incontinentia Buttocks

            There’s also the moving target of the term “Bernie Bros.” Since last summer, most people who use the term insist that it concerns people who are so blinded by Clinton hatred that they refused to vote for Clinton. This pretty obviously excludes Sanders himself. As does the definition upthread that associates it with badly behaving Sanders delegates at the Convention. But, at some level, the game has always been about associating Sanders himself with his worst supporters. So sneaking Sanders back into the definition of “Bernie Bro” is not an entirely surprising move.

    • IS

      But besides the failure to promptly try to quash BB-ism, there’s another issue that makes the attachment of his name understandable, where that didn’t happen with her: was there a sense that a lot of the PUMAs were not Democrats 12 microseconds before Hillary entered the ’08 primary, and were no longer effectively Democrats the moment she was out of the primary?

  • Abbey Bartlet
    • kped

      That’s a good thread, thanks for the link. It’s awful when these lefty guys with a following (say…FdB, or the Jacobin guys), pick a female target, attack them publicly, watch their followers pile on, and then pull a “who me” attitude, or say “it’s just twitter, log off if it bothers you”.

    • Philip

      Yeah, the way the Jacobinbro crowd treated people (but especially Sarah because I was watching that happen to someone I respect and am at least acquainted with) is a huge part of why I have no time for them. I’m ideologically kind of in their direction, but that group gives cover to such awful people.

      • Abbey Bartlet

        Jacbroins, someone (Sady Doyle I think?) called them. It doesn’t sound as good out loud as Jacobros would, but it makes me laugh harder.

        • Philip

          It has the plus of also sounding like it’s making fun of bruins fans

      • vic rattlehead

        I like OI’s “Jackoffbin.”

        Although I’ll hang my head and admit that I still subscribe to it. lol Patrick remains useless of course. My phone corrected Kilpatrick to lol Patrick and I liked it too much to change by the way.

  • ema

    4. Don’t overwork your non-male female members. If I had a penny for every organisation I’ve seen with three severely overworked non-male female members and 30 very relaxed male non-female members, I would be a very rich woman indeed.

    Fixed.

    • Abbey Bartlet

      4. Don’t overwork your non-male female members. If I had a penny for every organisation I’ve seen with three severely overworked non-male female members and 30 very relaxed male non-female members, I would be a very rich woman indeed.

      Fixed.

      I assume the original intent was to include female, non-binary, etc people, so, no, not fixed.

      • Snuff curry

        Yep.

      • Speaking as a non-binary person, this seems exactly correct.

        • vic rattlehead

          Sorry about the…er…troglodyte. Uh Erik-looks like you might have changed the name to Troll Comment Deleted and not actually deleted the comment

          • McAllen

            I assume the troll just names themself Troll Comment Deleted.

      • ema

        So in an article on sexism against women, women are defined as non-men and men are defined as men. Got it.

        • Abbey Bartlet

          You wanna go ahead and gtfo with the TERFing?

          • ema

            Go project somewhere else.

          • vic rattlehead

            Whoa whoa whoa TERF is a slur!

        • Nick056

          Please stop. This is bad. Trans people shouldn’t have to put up with this.

          • ema

            Exactly! Trans men are simply invisible.

            • Snuff curry

              Truly a master class is botched gotcha-ism, bless your heart.

        • Snuff curry

          I 4 two Am Surprìse by this turn of events

        • veleda_k

          You're right. True feminism is all about trans erasure.

          • ema

            No, no, feminism is all about reducing/erasing/otherig women, any and all women, including, at the risk of stating the obvious, trans women.

    • Origami Isopod

      Disappointing as hell to see all this transphobic garbage from you.

      • ema

        transphobic garbage?

        In a discussion of sexism against women, how are trans women not women? How does being trans magically protect you from sexism direct at you because you’re a woman?

        • veleda_k

          Gender does not fall into two discrete categories. Non-binary people exist, and they are not going to receive the same privilege that cis men have. Insisting that more inclusive language that acknowledges the existence of non-binary people is “erasing women” isn’t helpful.

  • randy khan

    This obviously is a longstanding issue on the left. IIRC, Abby Hoffman called it out in his autobiography, which came out in 1980 and largely covered the 60s and early 70s.

    • vic rattlehead

      My, how articulate!

  • Lost Left Coaster

    Truly the Trumpites are sending their most skillful trolls over here tonight.

    • Abbey Bartlet

      Two of the Troll Comment Deleteds seem to have undeleted themselves.

      • Lost Left Coaster

        Wondering if the troll took that name maybe?

        I know that Team LGM has to sleep sometime but hope that someone with the keys to the castle can swing by tonight — particularly vicious this time around.

        • Abbey Bartlet

          I tweeted at vacuumslayer, I’m pretty sure she’s up.

        • vic rattlehead

          Christ, I’ll volunteer as an unpaid intern to delete this garbage. Lord knows I spend plenty of time on the internet and I’m probably not nearly as busy with research and other engagements as the FPers.

          Scary that some cheeto crusted basement dwellers never grew out of the 14 year old edgelord phase.

    • Philip

      Given that some of the people covered by the altleft criticism are, um, TERF-curious at best, this may not be a trumpalo invasion

      • Snuff curry

        I don’t personally go in for this alt-left hullabaloo, but yes, it’s safe to say that trans exclusionary radical feminism is a product of the left rather than the right, nine times out of ten, even when employing bogstandard conservative biological essentialisms and funny games with relativism, the notion of choice, and “feelings” (as in “feeling” gender). Transphobia is a little less partisan.

        • Snuff curry

          (I’m thinking of the twisted pretzel logic of your anti-pomo Benson types, who profess a convenient, mutable, and platonic non-binaryism while simultaneously shitting on non-binary people.)

        • Abbey Bartlet

          I had to start putting TERFs on a list on twitter, because I kept coming across them and thinking they were just normal progressives and then WHOOSH.

          • Snuff curry

            Truly the mighty morphin’ lizard people we deserve. Is that list readily visible on your twitter page thingummie? I think I know the account, so you don’t have to link to it directly.

            • Snuff curry

              Oh, shit, unless you mean like you’ve got them on a blocked list. I am not well-versed in twittery.

              • Abbey Bartlet

                No, sorry, it’s a private list–they would block me if I had a public list, I’m sure. People don’t like being on lists.

                I can’t just block them, because then I come across them and think “Oh that person is only blocked because of a blockchain” and unblock them.

                A good rule of thumb:
                x = needed an extra character in username
                xx = TERF
                xxx = porn

                • Snuff curry

                  xx = TERF

                  Wow. They’re really doing that, then. Fucking hell.

                • Abbey Bartlet

                  Oh, yeah. Almost anyone with xx = TERF.

                  My DMs are open, feel free to DM me.

                • Snuff curry

                  Cheers, thanks

          • Aexia

            You may find this easier to do?

            https://terfblocker.com/

            I use a couple different block together lists curated by different people. Doesn’t get all the trolls (they create accounts daily) but it does go a long ways towards keeping you from being brigaded by the established asshole accounts since they won’t be able to RT you easily.

            • Abbey Bartlet

              The problem with blocking TERFs is that I’ve repeatedly had the following experience:
              *See quote-tweet of someone I have blocked.
              *Go see what the tweet says.
              *”Huh, they seem normal….a quick timeline peruse says they’re normal…I guess they got caught up in a blockchain or someone else’s blocklist.”
              *Unblock them.
              *Maybe even RT them.
              *They are TERF.

              Unlike alt-righters, TERFs are often wholly in agreement with me on most things. They’re tricksy.

              • Philip

                It’s so weird seeing someone who you superficially agree with on almost everything, and then you discover there’s something so deeply warped lurking in their worldview that forces you to reinterpret it all.

  • vic rattlehead

    Semi-OT: anyone know any good books on SNCC? I’ve been reading the John Lewis March graphic novel but how about a next step?

  • Chris Mealy

    I learned a lot from this old essay. I think about it all the time:

    Barbara Ehrenreich –
    What is Socialist Feminism?

    • Ehrenreich had a piece in the NYT Magazine last week.

  • los

    OP, Loomis:

    Other guys go to leftist meetings in no small part to get laid.

    I’ve read advice to men, suggesting they go to church to get some.

    Few men apparently take up the advice, because there are no men’s dating ads asking for women with Strong Beliefs in Him, but a good number of women’s ads asking for the same of a man.

  • los

    OP, Loomis:

    Other guys go to leftist meetings in no small part to get laid.

    I’ve read advice to men, suggesting they go to church to get some.
    Few men apparently take up the advice, because there are no men’s dating ads asking for women with Strong Beliefs in Him, but a good number of women’s ads asking for the same of a man.

    • Murc

      Few men apparently take up the advice, because there are no men’s dating ads asking for women with Strong Beliefs in Him,

      This legitimately surprises me.

  • It sure is cool how even here we get examples of Lewis’ Law. Someone is called on transphobia and immediately deflects with “What about the trans menz??!!!1” Sometimes I wonder if the Internet was a mistake.

  • MDrew

    “simple issues”?

  • libarbarian

    Strategies like taking stack are helpful

    Yeah, but you got to watch out for Stackbros or before long you will find that you have a Brostack

  • libarbarian

    Did You Know ….

    that in the first draft of the Lord of the Rings, the Uruk Hai were originally called Orcbros?

    J. R. R. Tolkein later called acceding to his editors request that he rename them “the greatest brostake of my career”.

  • Origami Isopod

    JFC, can libarbarian be banned already? His shitposting aside, upthread he’s blaming women targeted by abusers in leftist groups for "falling for such obvious cons."

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