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Hot takes on Clinton’s health

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(1) It’s now obvious that a Clinton presidency will almost certainly resemble the final, ghastly days of Konstantin Chernenko’s brief reign. Although I was prepared to vote for Clinton, the fact that she’s not completely immune to viruses and/or bacteria reminds me that true progressives always have the option of casting their ballots for the crazy lady who thinks Wi-Fi causes brain cancer.

(2) Broadly speaking, human beings are fucking gross and should only touch one another for as little time as needed to maintain the demographic vigor of the species. As a veteran of sorts, Donald Trump possesses sound judgment on this issue, and while we can barely predict what he’ll do or say from one moment to the next, we can be sure that his personal aversion to normal-sized human hands will protect him from pneumonia, noroviruses, or enteric fever.

(3) This entire episode raises important questions, including “Do I really know what pneumonia actually is?” and “How long until the alien incubating in Clinton’s lungs destroys New York like the monster in ‘Cloverfield?'” The answers, of course, are “no” and “soon.”

(4) OMFG, this actually existed for real before I started writing a lame joke about it.

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  • wjts

    Bernie Sanders doesn’t get diseases. But sometimes diseases get Bernie Sanders, and boy are they sorry when they do! Take polio. It wasn’t the Salk vaccine that eliminated it – the polio virus ran into his immune system and gave up.

    • nemdam

      Diseases only exist because the neoliberal establishment has bought all the politicians so that they don’t have to develop the pure, authentic drugs which would obviously eliminate all illness. If Debbie Wasserman Schultz wasn’t running the DNC, then the Democratic party would finally stop selling out their base and replace Hillary with Bernie. Bernie would then give a BOLD and NO COMPROMISING speech about being a true progressive. This will put him at +50 in the polls, humiliating Donald Trump into dropping out, and cause every REAL PROGRESSIVE to win their race.

      • (((Hogan)))

        Needs moar BIG PHARMA.

    • Halloween Jack

      Get out your metal file, I can still read “CHUCK NORRIS” on the serial number plate.

  • I read some people claiming that if Hillary has pneumonia, she was putting people at risk by being in contact with them (like that little girl she hugged). That is a pretty impressive level of willful ignorance.

    Hope she recovers soon. Pneumonia sucks. I had it for two weeks during a time I was working 60+ hour weeks. Only managed to get a few days off.

    • wjts

      Oh, god – she probably gave that poor little girl osteoarthritis, too!

      • (((Hogan)))

        And induced menopause.

        • PhoenixRising

          Yeah, she’d already given both to her 11 week old grandchild whose home she was leaving so that little girl was just collateral damage. Poor lil thang.

        • wjts

          And scrapie.

          • You forgot dysbaric osteonecrosis.

            • Dang, I always forget the dysbaric osteonecrosis! You have no idea how often I get home from shopping, start unpacking the bags, then suddenly realize that, yup, I’ve forgotten it again; and there I am, almost out, so it’s back in the car, down at the corner, looking for the man … wait, what was the diagnosis again, Dr. Nico?

    • Warren Terra

      if Hillary has pneumonia, she was putting people at risk by being in contact with them

      Tangentially related: apparently in the primaries, at one of the debates Rubio had the flu, and made a show of refusing to touch any other candidates lest he infect them. He also took a pill of some sort which was caught on video. Trump’s campaign tried to spread a rumor Rubio was addicted to prescription painkillers.

    • vic rattlehead

      My wife got pneumonia a week before finals in law school (I won’t name the school, but it’s also the name of a country in South America).

      She was hospitalized. It was an adventure getting her finals postponed. I think some Dean type administrator happened to call a few days later, being stingy about an extension “You’re fine to take it now, probably.” She called the doctor and he sounded like she had just told him the moon was made of bleu cheese. He called the dean up himself to yell at her.

      • wjts

        Liar. Peru State College doesn’t have a law school.

        • Yabbut the University of Florida’s Levin College of Law is ably supported by the Lawton Chiles Legal Information Center.

      • Warren Terra

        I’m puzzled, as there isn’t a country named “Columbia”. I’m tempted to try to open a Colombia School of Law, but Columbia would probably sue me, and Campos would be furious about one more bottom feeding law school misinforming its students.

        • vic rattlehead

          I know they’re spelled differently, but pedant-proofing my comment with that acknowledgement would’ve ruined the flow of the story.

          • Calming Influence

            You do realize you brought this on yourself, and must submit to a load of juvenile comments? But that we do indeed appreciate how cool it is that your spousal unit learned law at the C school…

            • twbb

              “I went to college in Boston. Well, not Boston, right outside Boston. Ok, in Cambridge.”

              • Warren Terra

                Lesley University?

              • ajay

                “I went to college in Boston. Well, not Boston, right outside Boston. Ok, in Cambridge.”

                If you take a train to Cambridge in the UK, the first thing you see on the platform is a big sign reading “Welcome to Cambridge, home of Anglia Ruskin University”.

                There is another university in Cambridge, but clearly they don’t like to mention it.

          • Roger Ailes

            “You’ll be dismayed to hear this, but the phrase ‘lue cheese’ showed up in English a century and a half before the Frenchified ‘bleu cheese’ version.”

        • Manny Kant

          I believe that was a joke in Community, that Jeff’s law degree was from Colombia – i.e., the country.

        • (((Hogan)))

          IS BEING PHONETIC.

      • Nobdy

        UFG (University of French Guiana) is notoriously stingy with extensions.

        I had a friend who got a 7 day extension for GIVING BIRTH. The corporate university, like the corporation, does not have any interest in its humancogs having biological functions. Can you not discard the defective humancog and get a new one? I think you can.

        I think you must!

        • GeorgeBurnsWasRight

          This reminds me of the Star Trek episode where in a crisis situation, Worf commands a woman not to give birth.

        • so-in-so

          I recall an awful story of a law firm strongly suggesting a pregnant member of said firm get an abortion because her pregnancy didn’t fit into their firm’s planning. I guess being stingy with rescheduling exams is just reasonable preparation for employment.

          • Norrin Radd

            They were just strongly pro choice.

      • Calming Influence

        I recall ‘contract law’ at Bolivia State being particularly difficult.

      • Unemployed_Northeastern

        Valparaiso is a city in South America, not a country…

    • kayden

      Perhaps one of those media Doctors (Dr. Oz for example) could explain to the good people of this country that not all strains of pneumonia are contagious.

      • Ahuitzotl

        perform a useful function? wouldn’t that void their contract?

  • howard

    i had pneumonia 4 1/2 years ago, and i had no energy at all: i wouldn’t have wanted to be campaigning.

    but thanks to all the health-trolling, rather than take the next 5 days off to recover fully, clinton is likely to keep going and end up affected for weeks on end….

    • Dilan Esper

      It’s not just the health trolling. Political strategists overrate the importance of daily campaigning and would HATE the idea of taking several days off for any reason, including to rest. (They would, assuredly, health troll about it as well, telling her it will make her look sick.)

    • James B. Shearer

      but thanks to all the health-trolling, rather than take the next 5 days off to recover fully, clinton is likely to keep going and end up affected for weeks on end….

      That would be pretty dumb. But then it was already pretty dumb to try to attend this event and then initially lie (‘overheated’) about the problem.

      Pneumonia seems to refer to a variety of things. But the version I had caused me to miss work for 2 weeks. Trying to pretend I wasn’t sick wouldn’t have been a good idea. And I was 30 at the time not 68.

      • DocAmazing

        I’ve had pneumonia twice. Both times I was able to work/attend classes (different ages each time) while ill; the first time I had pneumonia, the doc that saw me told me to skip antibiotics as it would clear up on its own. (It did, in less than a week). Everybody’s different, and there are different pathogens that cause pneumonia, some of which respond rapidly to antibiotics.

        Everyone here knows I’m no Clinton fan, but I can see her attending the 9/11 event without knowing she had pneumonia and then becoming feverish and short of breath. That’s not an uncommon presentation.

        • howard

          i only found out that i had pneumonia because after 3 days of a wracking cough i thought i should get it checked out: i was absolutely shocked.

          • sparks

            I had a couple of bouts similar to that. No idea I had pneumonia until my persistent cough led me to see a doctor. One doc showed me the x-ray. The level of fluid in my lungs was clearly visible.

        • It sounds like she knew she had pneumonia, but she wouldn’t be the first person with an illness like that to interpret “feeling OK” as being recovered.

        • I can see her attending the 9/11 event without knowing she had pneumonia and then becoming feverish and short of breath. That’s not an uncommon presentation.

          Indeed, it was mine, the one time I had it. But that was when I had just turned 67, so clearly wouldn’t apply to a 68-year-old like the Hildebeest!

        • Norrin Radd

          It’s not that she didn’t know it’s that she’s hardheaded about her health (as are many elderly) and ignored doctors orders. Over achievers like her are some of the worst people about slowing down when illness strikes. Walking pneumonia cost Jim Henson his life. She HAD to attend the ceremony but she should have cancelled everything else surrounding the event and planned to spend her preceding and successive days in bed.

          I worry more about how this affects her health than I am about the campaign.

      • But then it was already pretty dumb to try to attend this event and then initially lie (‘overheated’) about the problem.

        This is just ridiculous.

        As DocAmazing pointed out, people present differently. She might have felt fine before the ceremony or just a little run down and then it hit her. “Overheating” is a reasonable first guess if that’s, you know, how she felt!

        Cripes.

        • Warren Terra

          Also: I have been fortunate not to know pneumonia, but from what I’ve read it involves weakness, fevers, and susceptibility to stressors. It’s hardly inconceivable that she might have succumbed to the heat, and that the pneumonia might have made her do so.

        • BobBobNewhartNewhartSpecial

          “Overheating” is a reasonable first guess if that’s, you know, how she felt!

          But, according to the doctor that was treating her for her allergies, they have known about the pneumonia for days.

          • Right! Sorry, I didn’t get that part of the timeline until recently.

            So arguably attending the event was unwise, though, as Dilan pointed out, she is under insane pressure to go to such events.

            “Overheated” might well have been what happened, even if a contributing cause is the pneumonia. But yes, not silly to complain about it than if she hadn’t known about the pneumonia.

          • Ghostship

            Actually it was diagnosed on Friday and she was taking antibiotics. The doctor then went onto say that she “became overheated and dehydrated.” Overheating while fighting an infection and being on antibiotics is understandable, but becoming dehydrated under those circumstances is not. Did no one in her entourage think to take along some bottled water?

            • sparks

              You were hoping for a Rubio moment, weren’t you?

              • Ghostship

                No, because she wasn’t talking to camera and it was a warm day so why shouldn’t she take a drink from a bottle of water. If she was challenged she had a legitimate explanation for that. Not re-hydrating actually did her far more harm. As any politican should know, particularly Bill Clinton’s wife, it’s always the coverup that gets you. It was all very badly handled.

            • Pat

              In other words, HILLARY IS TO BLAME for this misfortune of hers and FOR EVERY OTHER ONE, by extension.

              • evodevo

                Well, at least her staff is … I presume they would have known about the illness – the first thing I would have done is make sure I was parked right behind her (and why weren’t there chairs/seats? I don’t get that..) with a small cooler with ice water/tea/whatever in a cup with straw – can’t have any Rubio moments, now can we. She was probably there because, as us wimmens all know, you can’t display ANY sign of weakness or the wolves get you by the hind leg and don’t let go.

              • Ghostship

                Actually, she was for this one, all she had to do was tell her assistant to carry a bottle of water and some cups or straws. As for any others, don’t be stupid.
                Not telling her immediate staff and her security detail was just plain dumb, they could have done a better job of making sure nothing happened or else handled it better so that no-one became aware of it. For instance, they could have made sure her van was waiting for her at the curb.

      • Dilan Esper

        That would be pretty dumb. But then it was already pretty dumb to try to attend this event and then initially lie (‘overheated’) about the problem.

        I’m not known as this blog’s resident Clinton-sympathizer (and as you see below, I take the actual health issue quite seriously), but the way this medical stuff plays out politically is really unfair to politicians.

        If Clinton skips a NINE-ELEVEN event, how was that going to play politically? And for a health reason? With Republicans harping on her health?

        The problem is that this is simultaneously a legitimate political issue (a presidential candidate I supported, Paul Tsongas, died of cancer during what would have been his term in office, and I have never forgotten that) and an unfair attack on HRC by Republicans. And it’s also a personal health issue. (An indicator of the conflicting incentives can be seen in right-winger Laura Ingraham’s twitter feed today– at first, she tweeted a “hope she’s OK” message, and then later tweeted skepticism over the temperature and her claim of “overheating”.)

        I remember when Bill Clinton sought counseling after the Monica scandal. And the White House had to go out of its way to say that it was from pastors, not psychiatrists. Because, you see, seeking treatment for a psychiatric issue with a psychiatrist is absolutely verboten in American politics, whereas seeking the same treatment from someone who talks to invisible men and performs mystical rituals is fine.

        So I don’t want to condemn HRC for how she handled this. This is a very tough matter to handle politically. I just hope for the country’s sake that this is as minor as her campaign says it is– I’m NOT comfortable with this situation.

        • James B. Shearer

          If Clinton skips a NINE-ELEVEN event, how was that going to play politically? And for a health reason? With Republicans harping on her health?

          It would have played a lot better than this is going to play.

          • nolo

            Arguing counterfactuals is silly. But I strongly disagree anyway. Democrats are already viewed as non-patriotic to their core. The Dem nominee (who is suspected of consorting with ALINSKY1!! and Mooslims) would have been eviscerated if she had skipped the event today. Obama and Tim Kaine have been criticized (wrongly) for not wearing flag pins on their lapels.

            And if her excuse for skipping was her health? Even more fuel for the conspiracy nuts and concern troll asses like yourself to tell her to drop out.

          • Norrin Radd

            This is nothing more than a 72 story. This election is not going to come down to the health of the candidates unless one of them God forbid drops dead.

      • nemdam

        But can you imagine the reaction if she skipped an NYC 9/11 memorial by saying she was sick? It would generate the same BS chatter as we’ve gotten today.

        I also don’t see why the initial “overheating” statement is a lie. She fainted from the heat. She recovered and had her doctor check her out before responding. It seems like the most logical way to handle what happened.

        Nov. 8th can’t come soon enough. And you know the stories are only going to get dumber from here on out.

  • This is good news for John McCain.

    He’ll thrive in the zombie apocalypse.

  • Joe_JP

    troll-tastic:

    Matt Oswalt Verified account
    ‏@MattOswaltVA

    Hillary’s health is such a non-issue, William Henry Harrison caught pneumonia at his inauguration and he….oh wait

    • DocAmazing

      Is it worth pointing out that Harrison died in 1841 and penicillin was first synthesized in 1928? Or is that like asking a toddler not to drool?

      • Warren Terra

        Similarly, as tradition dictates, if the US President (or a major-party nominee) is shot they must be treated without using sterile technique and then basically slowly tortured to death in a cavalcade of medical malpractice.

        • Harkov311

          I’ll see your James Garfield, and raise you a William McKinley.

          • Warren Terra

            Indeed; hence “tradition”.

            • Breadbaker

              No President has been shot more recently, say, outside the Washington Hilton, right?

              • Warren Terra

                Not that supports my joke, no.

        • vic rattlehead

          The worst of it is the rectal feeding that Garfield’s doctors recommended. Ground up meals shoved straight up his ass.

          Odie and Arbuckle are sick fucks.

          • I’ll just leave this here.

            • Warren Terra

              I like the variant where the cat still exists, but no longer speaks. It makes it clear Jon Arbuckle is just hearing voices, or at best anthropomorphizing.

          • Calming Influence

            “…shoved straight up the ass…”

            It’s all in the presentation…

            • Roger Ailes

              Good thing that mint was wafer-thin.

          • Schadenboner

            Garfield’s doctor is Dr. Liz.

      • efgoldman

        Or is that like asking a toddler not to drool?

        More like asking an infant not to shit in the diaper.

    • It’s irrelevant. Tim Kaine would be a better president than Trump. God forbid, Paul Ryan would be a better president than Trump. The Deputy Undersecretary of Transportation for Segways and Hoverbords would be a better president than Trump. Every single person in the line of succession would be a better president than Trump.

      • junker

        Yes. For all the GAME CHANGE happening in the media right now, I have no idea what kind of voter would be swayed by this.

        • Incontinentia Buttocks

          “I used to consider myself a Democrat, but ever since Hillary caught pneumonia, I’ve been outraged by Chappaquiddick.”

          • Calming Influence

            Ever since Hillary Clinton got pneumonia it has become apparent to me that Al Gore is fat.

        • Harkov311

          The sort of person who apparently can’t be bothered to find out the vast gulf between Clinton and Trump on the issues.

          In other words, probably not someone who is big into that whole “voting” thing.

      • Phil Perspective

        God forbid, Paul Ryan would be a better president than Trump.

        That’s pushing it. My neighbor’s dog would be a better president than those two.

        • Ryan would be a horrible president from a policy perspective, but you don’t get to be Speaker of the House without having the basic organizational ability necessary for the role, and he is temperamentally adequate.

          • Pat

            You don’t have all that much at stake politically, do you?

            • sonamib

              There’s no need to misread stepped pyramids. He’s clearly arguing that while Paul Ryan is horrible, Trump is worse. Do you disagree with that?

          • ForkyMcSpoon

            Ryan is, at the very least, far, far less likely to launch missiles at Iranian forces over rude gestures.

            Which is a thing Trump literally said he might do.

      • Thrax

        Yeah, I have a hard time imagining a voter whose vote turns on health issues. “You know, I agree with Clinton on the issues, but she might die in office and Tim Kaine, who agrees with her on said issues, would have to take over, so I guess I’ll vote for Trump.” I guess you could argue that the instability arising from the turnover process, or the possibility of a protracted period where the president isn’t fully up to the job but hasn’t yet turned over the keys, has some significance, but these sorts of low-probability events are salient only if the candidates are equally acceptable/unacceptable to you, and there are about three informed voters in the country that have that view of Clinton/Trump.

        • so-in-so

          Winning. The people who only vote for the person they see as winning might decide that a sick person who dies in office isn’t like winning, so go with the other guy.

          I guess the question is how many idiot voters (who aren’t already voting for Trump, because they are idiots) can we pass up?

      • ajay

        The Deputy Undersecretary of Transportation for Segways and Hoverboards would be a better president than Trump

        I am just assuming that this is Joe Biden but is it and if not, why not?

        • B. Peasant

          He’ll get on his hoverboard after washing the Trans Am, no doubt.

  • Dilan Esper

    I don’t really like that the top 3 finishers in the presidential race this year are all really old (Clinton, Trump, Sanders). It’s a demanding job that visibly ages those who hold it. And in modern politics, you are supposed to try to hold it for 8 years.

    I can’t make any specific judgment about HRC’s health, but that’s partly because I really don’t think I can trust the information put out by political campaigns on this issue. If HRC, or Trump, does have serious health issues, they aren’t going to tell us unless they have to. And they are both old, and HRC has had some incidents in public.

    But I do know that I didn’t like it when Reagan was in his second term and was obviously showing signs of the mental effects of aging, and I don’t think that there’s any guarantee that either HRC or Trump is going to be healthy seven years from now.

    I’d rather have younger people seek the office.

    • . It’s a demanding job

      True.

      that visibly ages those who hold it.

      If this is to imply that it actual ages people faster than normal, this is almost certainly just confirmation bias:

      This definition brought up another problem, however. “We know in the world of biology that you can’t actually measure the aging of an individual,” Olshansky explained. “There isn’t any single test that you can take.” To get around the problem, he turned to official records tracking life expectancies for men living at the same time as the presidents. “You can compare how long U.S. presidents would have been expected to live based on data during the year in which they were inaugurated, and you can compare that to how long they actually lived,” Olshansky said.

      Since reliable statistics for the United States only go back to 1900, Olshansky used data from a country with comparable longevity patterns—France—to establish points of comparison for earlier presidents. He then adjusted each president’s expected life expectancy to account for accelerated aging. “When I did these calculations, I assumed exactly what these physicians had predicted,” he noted, referring to Roizen and others. “I assumed that American presidents age at twice the normal rate.”

      Olshansky removed the four U.S. presidents who died of gunshot wounds while in office—Abraham Lincoln, James A. Garfield, William McKinley and John F. Kennedy—from his analysis in order to focus on deaths from natural causes. For presidents who are still alive—Jimmy Carter, George H.W. Bush, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush and Barack Obama—he based estimated life expectancies on 2007 statistics for all U.S. men.

      Not only did the results of the study disprove the hypothesis that U.S. presidents age at twice the normal rate, they even implied that the country’s highest office is associated with increased longevity, Olshansky said. “The fact is that 23 of the 34 U.S. presidents who died from natural causes lived longer and in many instances significantly longer than what was predicted for them during the year in which they were inaugurated,” he said, adding that four others came very close to exceeding their respective predictions.

      Olshansky pointed out that the average lifespan for the first eight presidents was 79.8 years, roughly equivalent to the life expectancy of American women alive today.

      There was a great…Issac Asimov story? which ran with the ageing premise with a computer doing the selection and there was a programming bug that it wouldn’t select someone if they didn’t meet it’s capability requirements.

      But really, the presidency is still just a job. It’s not physically demanding (aside from campaigning. Lots of jobs involve lots of stress.

      • Here’s an example of the crappiness of the “they age so fast” analyses. I mean, really.

        • Warren Terra

          We also see this treatment with the aging of other celebrities. I think in part it’s a feature of how we interact with them: like people in our personal lives we are very familiar with their appearance, but unlike people we know personally we only really look at them periodically. So, all of a sudden Brad Pitt looks a lot older, but that’s because our mental image of him is set more by an early, intense impression than by regular contact.

          • Yep! Totally agree.

            With actors, esp., you might see their earlier stuff a lot or maybe for the first time after seeing their later stuff.

            ETA: One aging pattern in men that really surprised me was going from wiry to muscular thick. David Boreanaz went from more wiry and reedy to thick and muscular in the first few seasons of Buffy, then looked like himself through Angel and well into Bones. Wereas as James Masters looked pretty much the same across both series.

            • It’s surprising how much people can change when you don’t see them particularly frequently, and weight and muscle mass are a big part of that. Conan O’Brien occasionally does bits with people on his staff, and he seems to have a lot of the same people around over the last decade or so. It’s amazing how much different some of them look over that time. Not just age, weight, and muscles but also hair, clothes, etc.

              Several of them had the same trajectory you mentioned — thin and wiry to fairly muscular. I think it’s somewhat common for slender young men to react to their metabolism slowing down by hitting the weights.

              • PohranicniStraze

                Or they were hitting the weights already, but when they were slender young men it didn’t have as much impact. That certainly happened to me – I went from having to fight for every ounce of muscle (and being able to eat whatever I wanted without gaining any fat) to gaining muscle fairly easily (and having to fight to keep the fat from coming with it).

      • Joe_JP

        It’s not physically demanding (aside from campaigning. Lots of jobs involve lots of stress.

        We aren’t talking being a fire fighter here or anything but “lots jobs involves lots of stress” sort of undersells it.

        I don’t think the average retirement age is completely artificial or anything. The presidency requires a degree of mental and physical stress (someone like Hillary Clinton will go all in, she will have long hours and not delegate as much as a Reagan) that all things being equal, I rather not involve someone in their mid-70s.

        The visually age thing has a sort of cosmetic flavor to it but the bottom line has some bite.

        • We aren’t talking being a fire fighter here or anything but “lots jobs involves lots of stress” sort of undersells it.

          How so? I mean, in the end it’s just a job. Presidents don’t necessarily put in long hours. They (can) have great vacations. They have amazing staffs. Etc. etc. The number of nailbiting situations they encounter are relatively rare. They aren’t living on the edge.

          It’s not that wildly different from other high level executives or other leaders of larger organisations (e.g., states or countries).

          I don’t think the average retirement age is completely artificial or anything.

          Nope, but it matters most for physically demanding jobs, by and large.

          The presidency requires a degree of mental and physical stress (someone like Hillary Clinton will go all in, she will have long hours and not delegate as much as a Reagan) that all things being equal, I rather not involve someone in their mid-70s.

          This is compatible with it not being so uniquely stressful that it ages people faster.

          The visually age thing has a sort of cosmetic flavor to it but the bottom line has some bite.

          I mean, come on. People cosmetically age in all sorts of ways and often in ways that “seem” rapid. Some of these pictures comparisons are just silly. But watch a long running television show and compare people at the beginning and the end. They often look *very* different. 8 years is a long time.

          • And ordinarily, medically speaking, stress is linked to mortality (e.g., heart diseases) not to cosmetic aging. Even that link has some challenges:

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-3353615/Cheer-miserable-won-t-kill-Stress-unhappiness-NO-direct-impact-mortality-study-finds.html

            What’s even the *mechanism* for stress to cause one to grey?

            Hmm. I found one study that was a bit suggestive, but it was pretty far from a robust human study.

          • Out of curiosity, do we think that other mentally high stress situation are also ageing? CEOs? Lawyers working crazy hours?

            How about people on active duty in combat zones?

            (I’m just curious. I’ve heard bits about various jobs ageing folks, but never about combat or, indeed, any condition that is notably associated with PSTD.)

          • Pat

            Of course, having the best medical advice and care in the entire world probably makes no difference in their lifespan or healthspan, right?

          • Joe_JP

            The “bottom line” referred to the overall concern about people in their mid-70s to have to deal with stress of being a President. And, to some extent the stress of the job having the ability to wear you down. The visually age thing isn’t convincing. But, the wider thing has bite to me.

            Hillary Clinton is not likely to be a part time President. She seems to me someone who will be all in, have long hours, often late night, so it will require a lot of physical and mental effort.

            It is not like some desk job or something where it would be perfectly fine for someone in their 80s. Or a judgeship, where people like John Paul Stevens could work from the beach if they wanted to do so (and have a season mostly off).

            Separately you ask about other jobs that might age you. Well, even jobs less stressful than being the President of the U.S. are stressful and people do after a time are worn down by it all. A teacher, e.g., often is worn down. But, again, that’s only part of the whole thing.

            Being POTUS requires a level of physical (the travel, energy required for long hours etc., constantly being “on” etc. has a physical angle) and mental that makes me concerned about someone in their mid-70s doing it. Especially if they aren’t going to delegate a lot of stuff etc. like Reagan. So, yes, if we have retirement ages of 65 or 70 for other jobs in part out of concern for that sort of thing, it seems we should at least be concerned all things being equal here.

      • EliHawk

        I mean, every President since Ford has made it to their 90s, and all but Reagan were mentally with it until close to the end. Small sample size, but idea that a 69 year old with the best medical care on the planet is going to be on death’s door from the job doesn’t seem accurate.

        • Tyro

          If they make it to their late 60s in relatively good health, they will likely live for the next 20 years or so. That said, decline of mental acuity in old age can’t be prevented simply by good medical care. I think we should really mark 65 as the cut off for running for president– not because there aren’t plenty of 65 year old politicians who would be perfectly good presidents, but because we should err on the side of caution.

          • bender

            It just occurred to me that people in their seventies often have some hearing loss. Hearing aids don’t seem to be as effective as eyeglasses; some of my friends who use them say that it is difficult to follow a conversation if two or more voices are speaking at the same time. I can see partial deafness being an impediment to communication in many situations a President will frequently be in, causing him/her to miss some of what’s going on and slowing down communication when time is of the essence.

            • This is really bad.

              Being fully deaf shouldn’t be a blocker and people of all ages have all sorts of different hearing.

              C’mon.

              • Tyro

                I disagree. Certain things are going to be an impediment to being president that we wouldn’t regard as an impediment in other fields. I think hearing impairment is one of those things.

                Ironic though that conservatives want us to work until we die but are troubled by a 70 year old woman being president

            • Calming Influence

              What?

        • vic rattlehead

          Nixon was 81. Not incredible longevity but above average for sure. And LBJ was genetically predisposed to heart problems. Plus he basically killed himself by picking up smoking again after leaving office.

          • Manny Kant

            Eisenhower was 78, so not amazing. Truman lived to 88, Hoover to 90. I didn’t realize FDR was only 63.

        • Unemployed_Northeastern

          Yes… but do you know which president lived the longest before Reagan took that title? John Adams.

          • Joe_JP

            What it took to be a President — he basically just went back to his farm for extended periods, e.g. — in 1800 makes it a rather different situation. He was a one timer, so that helped. But, once no longer a President, like smoking, I figure once you stop it would help a lot anyhow.

      • DocAmazing

        Jimmy Carter laughed off metastatic malignant melanoma. I want to age that rapidly.

        • jim, some guy in iowa

          I heard Carter on the radio not too long ago being interviewed about the eradication of the guinea worm- his enunciation was a bit off from before but my god his mind seems to be as sharp as ever

    • SoRefined

      I was a small child for the Reagan administration (in fact, I fell down a flight of stairs and knocked out my first tooth the day he was shot) and most of what I remember about him as President was that he was in the hospital a lot.

      • GeorgeBurnsWasRight

        I’m sure that getting critically wounded by gunfire affected his health.

      • maurinsky

        I remember he had polyps, too, because they did like 5 days of intensive coverage which involved seeing footage of the inside of his colon.

        • Tyro

          He had multiple instances of polyps needing to be removed, both benign and malignant. He also had two instances of skin cancer.

      • Ahuitzotl

        I was a small child for the Reagan administration

        and you admit it in public? (btw how much did they pay?)

        • btw how much did they pay?

          A small jar of jellybeans.

    • bender

      Other things being equal, a little younger would be better. OTOH,

      I’m just old enough to remember Ike’s second term and some news coverage of a heart attack. I was too young to understand what a heart attack was. I also remember Eisenhower playing a lot of golf, and finally sending the National Guard to Little Rock. (Lawrence Ferlinghetti’s poem “I Am Waiting” in A Coney Island of the Mind contains the line, “I am waiting/for Ike to act”. So was I, as an elementary school student in Arlington, Virginia.) My point being that Eisenhower was our second Cold War president, he had serious health problems, he was treated with 1950s medical knowledge, and he is not remembered as having a disastrous second term. JFK ran on a “New Generation” platform, but he never implied that Eisenhower was weak or senile, because he clearly wasn’t. People were just in the mood for a change.

      What puzzles me is that these suppositions about Hillary’s health are transparent swiftboating. Why aren’t the Democrats demanding Trump release his medical records? The candidates are about the same age and they are both overweight, but Trump is the one who gets red faced when he is giving a speech and looks like he could keel over. And he is the one who has not released the results of any of his medical tests, not even his blood pressure.

      • XTPD

        JFK did take the high rote, but that may have been because he was in absolutely no position to question Eisenhower’s health in regards to fitness for office.

        • bender

          Good point.

      • kayden

        Why aren’t the Democrats demanding Trump release his medical records?

        Great question. I’d love for the Democrats to push this argument as they respond to the firestorm created by the media and Republicans about Secretary Clinton’s health. He is older than her, after all.

  • Warren Terra

    The Kremlin WikiLeaks weighs in.

    • efgoldman

      The Kremlin WikiLeaks weighs in.

      A lot of twits are garbage or worse, but you can really find some gems in a sequence like this.

      • Warren Terra

        The grace note of a self-described “radical transparency” outfit deleting their tweet was a nice touch.

    • nolo

      I fully expect WikiLeaks to release faked medical records about Clinton any day now.

      • kayden

        I wouldn’t trust anything they leak. Assange has made it clear that his agenda involves getting Trump elected.

  • jim, some guy in iowa

    re: #4- no matter how lame your joke is, H A will be moreso

    • rewenzo

      There are too many sentences written with lower case letters. Please eliminate 3. I AM NOT A CRACKPOT.

    • Ken

      Well, what can you expect from a parody account?

  • rewenzo

    The best part of the conspiracy is that Hillary Clinton, Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, and the Trilateral Commission went to all the trouble of scaring all the other candidates out of the race and stealing the nomination from Bernie Sanders just so they could get Tim Kaine, Governor Generic, elected to the Presidency.

    • Joe_JP

      Tweak on Veep scenario — neither candidate gets enough electoral votes. The Republican House can’t stomach either Clinton or Trump & realize Johnson (who wins a couple states and comes in third) has no legitimacy to be Prez. So, it’s a holding pattern. Dems win the Senate and vote for Kaine. People are satisfied. He tosses in some Spanish.

      • EliHawk

        I mean, if something unthinkable happened and Clinton died/dropped out, Tim Kaine, if only because the media doesn’t have a hard on to destroy him, would win by 10+ points.

        • NonyNony

          Possibly the funniest thing I’ve read all week. Of course it’s only Monday.

          (Tim Kaine would not win by 10+ points. Republicans will vote for the Republican and so he’d win by somewhere between McCain/Palin and Romney/Ryan margins. Pretty much exactly like Clinton will. The media’s bias against Clinton is only slightly worse than their bias against Generic Democrat.)

          • Manny Kant

            I still rather think it’s possible Clinton will win by 10+ points, or nearly that much. Certainly very possible she’ll win by more than Obama did in 2008. She was up that much in the polls for several weeks after the conventions.

  • vic rattlehead

    In a sane world, I would care about legitimate health concerns. However, we do not live in that world. If it came out that Hillary had stage IV cancer I would: 1) be very upset (if the internet and my social circle are any indication, I might be the only 28 year old who actually likes her) and 2) still crawl through broken glass to vote for her, and bust my ass canvassing and phone banking, confident in Tim Kaine’s ability to handle the presidency.

    I am confident in saying that there is nothing about Hillary that could possibly come out that would get me to concede the presidency to Donald Fucking Trump. If she killed and ate a kitten on live television I would think she was a monster but still preferable to Trump.

    • randy khan

      One of my friends tonight said that she’d vote for Hillary if she were dead. I agree.

      • DocAmazing

        She could be the dead girl in her own bed!

    • kayden

      Ditto. The Bigot running against her scares me to no end.

    • BartletForGallifrey

      I’m 28 and I adore her.

  • Warren Terra

    I’m very concerned that we don’t know the long-term health effects of the time Trump spent personally shifting rubble in the aftermath of 9/11, especially now that Christine Todd Whitman has admitted that as EPA boss she lied to people about the hazards.

    • efgoldman

      I’m very concerned that we don’t know the long-term health effects of the time Trump spent personally shifting rubble in the aftermath of 9/11

      Is that before or after he stole the 150 grand?
      Best line in a bad Star Trek movie: “What does “god” need with a starship?”
      What does a “billionaire” need with 150 grand?

      • Warren Terra

        Speaking of Trump and $150k, I trust everyone has seen the David Farenthold story this weekend, in which the Trump Foundation passes on someone else’s $150k donation to the Palm Beach Police charity, Trump accepts an award for “his” charity, and the Police charity rents Mar a Lago for ~$275k to hold a fundraiser, meaning that Trump basically took the charity for tens of thousands of dollars and an award?

        • And that, children, is really The Art of the Deal.

      • rea

        What does a “billionaire” need with 150 grand?

        That is how one becomes a “billionaire.”

    • vic rattlehead

      If he actually lifted a finger, I will lick Ted Cruz’s taint.

      • Warren Terra

        He did “lift a finger” to get 9/11 reconstruction funds, which he didn’t need and didn’t use for 9/11 reconstruction.

        • Ahuitzotl

          which he didn’t need

          that I doubt

  • The way certain media figures are covering this is an excellent example of the concept of pump-priming, or cognitive bias. Consider these basic observations:

    1) Trump and his people have been spreading rumors about Clinton’s health for months. Trump was casting aspersions on her “stamina” even in the primary season.
    2) These rumors have no basis in fact. Whatsoever. They are based on fantasy.
    3) Pneumonia is a serious condition, but not outside of the range of illnesses suffered by healthy people — even presidents. It certainly is unrelated to the claims Trump and his goons have been making, which have been about seizures, strokes, neurological conditions — all related to her concussion some years ago.
    4) Concussions do not cause pneumonia.
    5) No media figures would be associating this event with her earlier concussion if not for Trump’s false claims about her health.

    Thus, a pervasive campaign of dishonesty and fabrication can result in two unrelated events being perceived as part of a single ongoing narrative.

    How this same process applies to recent coverage of the Clinton Foundation is left as an exercise for the reader.

    • Denverite

      Pneumonia is a serious condition, but not outside of the range of illnesses suffered by healthy people — even presidents. It certainly is unrelated to the claims Trump and his goons have been making, which have been about seizures, strokes, neurological conditions — all related to her concussion some years ago.

      Actually, pneumonia is a major complication associated with various forms of dementia, especially including Alzheimer’s.

      Of course, it’s also a complication of stuff that makes you cough a lot, like allergies, which Clinton’s doctors are saying (credibly) is what caused her to contract it. A lot of normal things can cause pneumonia. The older twin got it last winter when he had a really bad cold for a week or two. I got it about a decade ago training for a marathon in the middle of a Chicago winter. Didn’t even have a cold or anything — it just suddenly got difficult to breathe over a week or so. It took several months before I felt normal again.

      • randy khan

        It certainly is associated with Alzheimer’s, but not with the kinds of things that the crazies have been saying she has.

        • Denverite

          I thought the rumor was that she was suffering from early onset dementia?

          • randy khan

            Hadn’t seen that one. I had seen stroke, blood clots, and Parkinson’s, though.

      • mds

        Actually, pneumonia is a major complication associated with various forms of dementia, especially including Alzheimer’s.

        Actually actually, pneumonia is a complication associated with advanced stages of dementia, when the patient’s ability to chew and swallow is affected, and they are likelier to aspirate food and drink. They are also more susceptible to having this lead to pneumonia as a result of their general declining physical state, of course, and they’re usually in nursing homes, which are similar to hospitals in terms of spread of infections. But we’re talking the stage where “Cut their food up for them, and make sure their head is fully propped up” is the main way to minimize the risk. So it’s only related to any neurological complications ascribed to Hillary Clinton in the most tenuous way. I mean, if they want to make the case that she’s suffering from late-stage Alzheimer’s, and hence can’t walk or properly feed herself, they’re welcome to try.

        (Then again, given the media’s Clinton Rules, perhaps I shouldn’t encourage them, because the New York Times would probably give “Is Hillary already confined to a nursing home?” serious consideration and headline space.)

        • Yes. They’re about as closely linked as “Hillary intentionally let Americans die in Benghazi!!!” and “Hillary had a private mail server!!!”. Or, for that matter, either of those and “The Clinton Foundation was used for influence-peddling!!!!”

        • “Is Hillary already confined to a nursing home?”

          PolitiFact says: Mostly False!

          • (((Hogan)))

            Views differ.

          • ajay

            “Is Hillary already confined to a nursing home?”

            PolitiFact says: Mostly False!

            Our results:
            Hillary is not “confined” anywhere. So that’s false.
            She does, however, spend large amounts of time in a home. (Her home.)
            And it is safe to assume that she has been visited there by her daughter Chelsea, who recently gave birth to a child and is therefore, presumably, nursing. So Hillary is not technically confined, but she has been living in a home where nursing has probably happened.

            We rate the statement “Mostly True”.

  • junker

    On the bright side, apparently in an interview last week Trump promised a reporter that he would be the first to release all his medic records. He is almost certainly going to hear a ton about that this week.

    • nemdam

      And promptly deny he ever said it. And the media will shrug, and ask Trump what he thinks Hillary’s health.

    • Jackov

      Trump: I would have been the greatest medic in the history of warfare. Believe me! Mel was partly inspired to make Hacksaw Ridge because of how heroic I would have been in Vietnam.

      National Reporter: According to the Trump campaign, “Donald wanted to be serve as a medic in Vietnam while Hillary Rodham was avoiding the draft and studying radicalism.”

  • tonycpsu

    My “favorite” wrinkle in this story is this. It’s like a Bat-signal for doucheitude went out and Shkreli just up and teleported in there.

    • Karen24

      I will read Skreli’s obituary with great pleasure.

      • Nobdy

        That’s a horrible thing to say about a future U.S. president.

        Who better to take up the mantle of Trump than Shkreli?

        Trump wants to deport South Americans? BORING. Shkreli is directly killing them by withholding medication for Chagas disease!

        • Warren Terra

          Have Martin Shrekli and Tiffany Trump announced their engagement yet? Because that would really seal the passing of the torch.

  • Karen24

    Well, this is one way to take the spotlight off of the “basket of deplorables” remark.

    Also, I’ve had pneumonia four times. It sucks, and it is serious, but depending on the cause and it can be treated easily. The reason many people die of it is that they are already terribly ill and their doctors and families decide not to treat it aggressively. (One of my good friend’s dad was in the nursing home with a long list of ailments, mostly Alzheimer’s. He got pneumonia and she refused to authorize antibiotics, just painkillers. He died of it, no more aware of breathing trouble than he’d been aware of anything else for six or so years.). The potent antibiotics used to treat it can have a side effect of making the patient sensitive to heat, especially someone standing outside in a dark suit wearing a bullet-proof vest under it. Remember that she gets so many death threats that she has to wear Kevlar undergarments, not known for coolness.

    • Schadenboner

      Kevlar undergarments

      Band name.

      not known for coolness

      No, wait, I want to change my vote…

    • Yankee

      “The old man’s friend” … lets you off easy.

  • shewasthenaz

    You’re as obnoxious as the alt-right now, treating anyone who dares think outside of your narrow spectrum of thought as though they are inexcusably stupid.

    I have to unsubscribe because you’re driving me very close to voting Green.

    Seriously: You make the far right look thoughtful.

    • tonycpsu

      Bye, Felicia.

    • Dr. Waffle

      Who the fuck are you again?

    • postmodulator

      A name I’ve never seen post before says I’ll never see it post again.

      This is a totally new experience on the Internet for me. It’s shocking. I think my monocle fell right on my fainting couch.

      • Oh cmon! There was that time when they almost commented, but then didn’t. And that other time when they thought about commenting, but then bspenser made a post with a tweet in it and the whole day was shot!

        And that other time when they had something really insightful to post, but then they woke up.

        It’s been a fresking roller coaster!

        • shewasthenaz

          You’ve replied to at least 3 of my previous comments, agreeing with me.

          Apparently you put a lot of thought into them.

          • That’s possible. Doesn’t mean I can’t make a funny :)

            Sorry, your nick isn’t very distinctive to me. It’s entirely possible you wrote something sensible earlier but then pop this inanity out.

            I don’t see any replies from me in this search. Perhaps you have a pointer?

      • shewasthenaz

        I’ve commented dozens, possibly hundreds of times over a 10 month period.

        But more importantly: It’s your kind of arrigant, mindless insults that are going to guarantee that we end up with President Trump.

        That sense of entitlement for your brand of DNC Democrat – insulting contempt for anyone who veers even slightly from the party line.

        And now that I know the contempt you have for your own readers who don’t march in lockstep.. why would anyome come back?

        I hope you think about the impression you leave with people who might be half an inch outside your cult.

        • Seriously, was this meant for the recent Freddie post or what? Or are you suggesting that we should be treating “Hillary has a disqualifying neurological condition” as a reasonable point of contention?

          • tonycpsu

            Maybe she just missed the boat on the FdB post and used this one to ensure that her flounce got maximum exposure. So, uh, Mission Accomplished, I guess.

          • Even on the Freddie post, it wouldn’t be a sterling post.

        • Warren Terra

          I’ve commented dozens, possibly hundreds of times over a 10 month period.

          A Google search finds 15 posts over the last eight months, with one comment to each, which is close enough. Strikingly, none of those comments are contentious or show this level of dissatisfaction. I’m rather puzzled as to what incited it this time. A rather sarcastic post saying a bout of pneumonia isn’t the Incurable Martian Death Flu and doesn’t justify hyperventilation or wild speculation – and that‘s the unacceptable post? Pick a post at random and you’d probably find something more obviously infuriating!

        • kayden

          I assume you’d be happier at Glenn Greenwald’s blog/website. This may not be the best place for someone who thinks that because Secretary Clinton has pneumonia and is getting treatment, she should be replaced by Senator Sanders.

          • twbb

            Are you seriously arguing that pneumonia ISN’T a symptom of neoliberalism?

          • Origami Isopod

            I assume you’d be happier at Glenn Greenwald’s blog/website.

            Ditto.

        • a_paul_in_mtl

          It’s a free country, you vote for whoever you want. You are not, however, entitled to make others responsible for how you choose to vote. Your vote, your choice, your responsibility. The fact that other people say things you think are mean doesn’t change that, and if you decide to never come back here I for one will not pine for your return.

    • Is this comment on the wrong post? What exactly did you find objectionable?

      • jim, some guy in iowa

        I’m wondering whether shewasthenaz is familiar with Noon’s style

    • D.N. Nation

      Jill stein is a crank and a moron. If her candidacy therefore appeals to you, that’s on you, sister.

  • Calming Influence

    I’m one of those who seem to be susceptible to pneumonia; otherwise very healthy, but I have had pneumonia 4 times.

    That said, if someone had asked me in the depths of my suffering “should we nuke Iran?” I’m positive I would have been able to clearly say “No. Please do not nuke Iran. Even though I am under the weather, it is not necessary to nuke Iran.”

    • Vance Maverick

      Username checks out.

    • sparks

      4? That’s all?

      Piker.

  • Breadbaker

    Can anyone point to a news or opinion piece in the so-called mainstream media that says, basically, “Trump’s argument seems to be, ‘Hillary is ill, so even if you agree with her 100% and disagree with me 100%, you should vote for me because she’s ill. That is the rankest bullshit. If Hillary dies, Tim Kaine, who agrees with her on pretty much everything would become president. No rational Clinton supporter would vote for Trump because of these unsupported rumors that she’s not well enough to be President.”

    • Steve LaBonne

      None of them will write it because there’s no phony drama in common sense, but it’s certainly how I feel. If she keels over the day after the election I will feel sorry for her family but I will have complete confidence that President Kaine can do the job.

      • Manny Kant

        Or certainly a hell of a lot more confidence that he can do the job than any of the other options we have before us at the moment can.

  • kayden

    I have nothing but admiration for Secretary Clinton for going about her business despite being under the weather. I’ve had one bout of pneumonia and it was painful but easily treated with antibiotics. There is absolutely no need to panic or to talk about her stepping down and turning things over to Senator Sanders.

    The vultures in the Republican party and media need to shut the hell up. She will recover shortly and even a sick Clinton is better than a “healthy” Trump. She has my unconditional support and my vote.

  • libarbarian

    1) Well, shit! If Clinton is sick then I guess I HAVE to vote for the Nazi.

    2) FYI. I think “Hot Takes” by white people are cultural appropriation ….. or is that just “Hot Takes” on chicken? Or hot chicken? Well, it’s at least one of them and probably better to be safe and leave them all alone.

  • a_paul_in_mtl

    I can’t help but almost admire HA Goldman’s persistance and perseverance in his clutching at straws for reasons- any reason will do, however farfetched- why Clinton MUST give way to Bernie. I’d have thought he’d have given up after the FBI failed to heed his call to find something to charge Clinton with in order to “save the Democratic Party”. Clearly I underestimated him.

    • Pat

      Well, because if Hillary is elected than a woman will be President. Which is impossible. So if an impossible thing happens, then, then, then, well it can’t, so she has to give up her nomination. Why? For any reason! It doesn’t matter! A woman as President can’t happen!

  • a_paul_in_mtl

    I have to say, even bad seasonal allergies, which is what I gather she has right now, could, I imagine, make campaigning a miserable experience, even for a younger person. I hope she can get at least a bit of rest.

  • Thom

    But does she have the boogie-woogie flu?

    • petesh

      I do hope her team tweets a denial of that.

    • rea

      There was a woman in New York, didn’t feel just right
      She had the fever all day and chills at night
      Now things got worse, yes a serious bind
      At times like this it takes a man with a style I cannot often find
      A doctor of the heart and a doctor of mind.

      If you like country with a boogie beat, he’s the man to meet
      If you like the sound of shufflin’ feet, he can’t be beat
      If you wanna feel real nice, just ask the rock and roll doctor’s advice.

      It’s just a country town but patients come
      From Mobile to Moline from miles around
      Nagodoches to New Orleans
      In beat-up old cars or in limousines
      To meet the doctor of soul, he’s got his very own thing.

      Two degrees in be-bop, a PHD in swing
      He’s the master of rhythm, he’s a rock and roll king, yeah.

      If you like country with a boogie beat, he’s the man to meet (he’s the man to meet)
      If you like the sound of shufflin’ feet, he can’t be beat (I say he can’t be beat)
      If you… if you wanna… if you wanna feel real nice, just ask the rock and roll doctor’s advice.

  • Origami Isopod

    New tinfoil-hat theory: Hillary’s hired a body double.

    • Denverite

      My theory is that she really had a stroke and is nonresponsive in a coma right now in a secret location. Fortunately, they found a Hillary body double who previously had been doing impersonations as a side gig. She will pretend to be Hillary for the rest of the campaign and into the presidency, during which time Bill will realize the truth and fall begrudgingly in love with her. However, Hillary’s chief of staff, who secretly is a villain, will grow wary of her independence and conspire to release dirt on her to either force a loss or force her impeachment. At the end of the day, the fake Hillary and Bill will concoct a scheme where she fakes a stroke, has the real Hillary (still in a coma) switched out with her, Kaine takes over, and then fake Hillary and Bill go on to live a happy life together, possible with fake Hillary running for local office.

      • (((Hogan)))

        Hillary’s chief of staff, who secretly is a villain

        Not just any villain–a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.

        • Denverite

          EXCELLENT point. I’m going to consider my theory 100% confirmed at this point.

      • jim, some guy in iowa

        I thought I watched a documentary just like that once…

      • wjts

        My theory is that if we’d just listened to the Norwegian ambassador’s warnings about Buddy back in 1997, this whole mess could have been avoided.

      • Bruce B.

        Kagemusha II: The Bloody Ballot Box, co-directed by Akira Kurosawa and Zach Snyder.

        • Denverite

          Interesting. I had always visioned my theory as more of a romcom, but having it be an action story does present some interesting angles.

    • wjts

      I used to see a guy wandering around downtown Chicago with a sandwich board that helpfully informed passers-by that Al Gore had been assassinated and replaced by a KGB double. So it’s not like there isn’t a verifiable precedent.

    • (((Hogan)))

      She is lying again how do u lose 40lbs in a couple of hours

      You take off the Kevlar, asshole.

      • wjts

        OT, but here’s a link for that John Langan book I mentioned to you on Friday. I’ve now finished it, and would recommend it unreservedly.

        • Bruce B.

          That’s in my queue. I have yet to read a Langan story and not appreciate it.

        • (((Hogan)))

          Thanks!

  • Bruce B.

    Catching up on Facebook yesterday, I saw a Bernie-or-Bust-or-Maybe-Johnson-or-Trump friend of a friend post in rapid succession some classic 9/11 truther crap and then the argument that Clinton’s pneumonia is a side effect of AIDS, which she contracted from Bill and has known about for years, and that the real DNC plan all along has been to get her nominated and voted in, then she dies soon, and neoliberal Kaine restores neoliberal glory days.

    No news on follow-up, since FB blocking does work.

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