Home / General / When “the other perspective” is crowded with morons, there’s no reason to offer them a platform

When “the other perspective” is crowded with morons, there’s no reason to offer them a platform

Comments
/
/
/
766 Views

Wonderful.

“The HPV vaccine is considered a life-saving cancer preventer, but is it a potentially deadly dose for girls?” This was the promo for Wednesday’s episode of Katie, Katie Couric’s daytime talk show on ABC. Couric, whose husband passed away from colon cancer, is known for being a relatively responsible journalist when it comes to health care issues, so despite this needlessly alarmist advertising, I held out hope that her show would demonstrate that no matter how adamant a very small group of people are that their health problems are caused by the HPV vaccine, there is no evidence that the HPV vaccine is dangerous. Sadly, my hopes were dashed as Couric spent a half-hour of her show drumming up fears that the vaccine will make you very ill or even kill you.

For at least the ten thousandth time, it’s worth pointing out that “debating” the science on vaccine safety and efficacy is about as fruitful or necessary as debating the veracity of the moon landing. Perhaps next week, Couric will host a thoughtful discussion on children’s dental care. Yes, she encouraged her own children to brush their teeth several times a day, but some people have concerns that deserve a balanced hearing. Most young people who die unexpectedly, for example, have brushed their teeth with fluoride toothpaste [insert “precious bodily fluids” joke here] sometime in the previous 24 hours. That ominous correlation deserves a closer look. Indeed, perhaps other correlations will emerge when we do. There’s no way to know for sure. We’re simply asking questions.

See also Phil Plait and Seth Mnookin, who was evidently considered as a guest on the show before the producers realized they weren’t very good at their jobs.

FacebookTwitterGoogle+Share
  • Facebook
  • Twitter
  • Google+
  • Linkedin
  • Pinterest
  • DocAmazing

    “What vaccines are you going to forego giving your child?”
    “All of them, Katie.”

    • DrDick

      She needs to be charged with child abuse and public endangerment.

    • TribalistMeathead

      Bravo.

  • Joseph Nobles

    Now, now, Katie’s just asking questions.

    • Snarki, child of Loki

      Who will rid us of this public moron?

      Just asking questions…

  • rea

    DON’T FEED YOUR KIDS!! MOST KIDS WHO DIE HAVE BEEN FED!!!!!

    • DrDick

      Eating inevitably leads to death!

      • N__B

        Lose weight! After death! Exciting new diet!

        • DrS, 42 year old 40 year feminist

          One weird trick!

    • Informant

      Dick Gregory was way ahead of you on this point with the whole “breathatarianism” thing.

  • Is this like the SWP policy of no platform for “Fascists”? Although they had no problem giving a platform to Gilad Atzmon who while not a “Fascist” certainly is an anti-semite.

    • Malaclypse

      No. It is more like the LGM policy allowing people who endlessly sidetrack every single post to comment, but be given pancakes.

        • Malaclypse

          Only if they are being oppressed by Stalinist professors like Loomis, who won’t allow them to be served by American universities.

          • rea

            You’ve got to hand it to Otto–most of our trolls don’t provide their own pancakes.

            • LeeEsq

              So what your saying is that he represents a bargain of sorts.

              • BigHank53

                If you go down to the crossroads at midnight and trade the devil a crappy worn-out netbook instead of your soul…

                • N__B

                  You gain the talent to configure Windows. Hardly seems worth it.

                • njorl

                  I’m going to buy up some old Windows 7 operating systems, add a small curvy line to the “7” and start selling Windows 9. It will be a big improvement to Windows 8.

    • witless chum

      Nope.

      • LeeEsq

        The SWP, however annoying and hypocritical they are, does not have an audience in the millions or tens of millions and isn’t trusted as a source of information.

        • witless chum

          What is the SWP? I don’t even know, I was just trying to give Otto the response he deserved on this one.

          • guthrie

            Socialist Workers Party. Famous for not compromising with anyone much really, and thus they are rather small.

            • Hogan

              Oh, that SWP? I thought he was talking about Sherwin Williams Paint.

              • Gregor Sansa

                No. That painted globe is surely a platform for fascists.

                • N__B

                  Meine Welt ist Ihr Feld, so to speak.

                • Funkula

                  I always thought a globe dripping in red paint above the words “Cover the World” was a bit…Comintern.

            • toberdog

              Not to be confused with the Party of Socialist Workers. Splitters!

              • What about the Workers Party for Socialism? And the Socialist Workers Party (Marxist-Leninist)? And the Socialist Workers Party (non-Marxist-Leninist)? Comrades, you are slandering a whole collection of revolutionaries by omission…

                • njorl

                  Wait, are the non-Marxist-Leninists Leninists who are not Marxists, or are they neither?

                • Tristan

                  Original Famous Ray’s Socialist Worker’s Party

          • LeeEsq

            It stands for the Socialist Workers Party, its a Trotskyite political party in the UK, that obviously has no political power. I’m not even sure if it has no genuinely working class members. Its received more than a bit of attention in the UK media because its chairman has been apparently been using it as a vehicle to rape women for decades like the leaders of religious cults do. I can find some links about it from a British blog that I read if your interested latter today.

            Gilad Atzmon, whom I’m surprised that Otto is concerned about considering his views on certain Middle East political issues, is a UK based jazz musician, that hit the headlines several months ago for writing a very Jew-hating book called the Wandering Who. Among other things, he argued that Shylock and Fagin were the most accurate depictions of the Jewish character in fiction. Since Atzmon was born in Israel, and calls himself an ex-Jew, a lot of Jew-haters took to his work. The Wandering Who was issued by a publishing house that considers itself to be on the Far Left and many Leftists in the UK pointed out that they really should not publish him.

          • The SWP was the British Left Wing equivalent in terms of social composition to the Libertarians in the US as far as I can tell. Lots of perpetual students, professional revolutionaries living in their mothers’ basements, and otherwise marginal lumpen-intelligentsia.

            http://jpohl.blogspot.com/2013/03/obituary-for-socialist-workers-party.html

  • NonyNony

    Stupid or evil? Is she doing this on purpose because she hates children and wants to see them die? Or is she just an idiot?

    I lean towards “idiot”. But I’m willing to be convinced that she’s actually evil – if you were a psychopathic supercriminal mastermind, becoming a “trusted television figure” and then using that power to kill kids would, in fact, be a pretty evil scheme. It’s a Lex Luthor kind of plot, except that Luthor probably would look at it and say it was a bit too much.

    • Gregor Sansa

      Now, now. She’s not killing kids. She’s killing women. In fact, for every few hundred women she kills, she may actually be saving one kid’s life (since injections are never 100% safe).

      Seriously, though. The Koch brothers are proper supervillains; killing millions in the future, but at least they’re profiting from it. Couric is the underpants gnome of supervillains.

      • tt

        They are much, much safer than suggested by that ratio. There is no evidence of fatality risk for the HPV vaccine.

        • Gregor Sansa

          yeah, but HPV isn’t a death sentence either. A 300-1 ratio of good to bad outcomes is awesomely good for a medical intervention. Even exercise or vegetables or drinking plenty of liquids probably aren’t better than that.

          • catclub

            This. Drugs that have about a 1.5 to 1 ratio of good outcomes get approved.

          • tt

            A 300-1 ratio of good to bad outcomes is awesomely good for a medical intervention

            I don’t dispute this, and in a universe in which 3000 women a year in the US were saved from death by cervical cancer and 10 girls a year died from the vaccine it would still be a great thing. But there’s no evidence we live in that universe. Even an extremely low fatality rate would probably get noticed. It’s a big deal for a 12-year-old girl to die unexpectedly.

            • Chocolate Covered Cotton

              And apparently not as big a deal for 300 adult non-virgin women to die slowly and painfully.

      • LeeEsq

        The Koch brothers are worse than supervillains, they are 1980s Saturday morning cartoon villains that were rejected by the producers for being too obviously evil.

    • Snarki, child of Loki
    • Anonymous

      lex luthor would only buy in to build/reinforce relationships with e.g. brainiac or vandal savage.

      hugo strange may have done this already, it seems in his wheelhouse.

      glorious godfrey could play this role in a larger granny goodness scheme but he would definitely feel underemployed.

      • Anonymous

        veronica cale is a bit too on the nose. and she could do so much better.

    • Funkula

      That’s an unfair slander of Luthor. Killing kids by withholding vaccines neither increases his worldly power nor weakens The Alien. For it to be a Luthor plot it needs a third step, where Lexcorp introduces an over-the-counter elixir that can cure the diseases after they manifest, resulting in many parents and children filled with gratitude for Lex Luthor for personally saving their family. Oh, and it’s 5% kryptonite by volume, and the Metropolis underworld begins distilling it into rocks….

  • cpinva

    “Stupid or evil? Is she doing this on purpose because she hates children and wants to see them die? Or is she just an idiot?”

    ratings. “man bites dog” always gets them.

    • NonyNony

      Ah. So a vote for “evil” then!

  • Woodrowfan

    There should be a corollary to Godwin’s Law: “As an online discussion of vaccines grows longer, the probability of an anti-vaccine proponent declaring that they have special insight because they are a mother* approaches 1.”

    (* or parent)

    • catclub

      … grows longer ( than two comments), …

  • fka AWS

    So this is the time for snark?

    • Snarki, child of Loki

      Is it a day of the week that ends in “y”?

      • Ahuitzotl

        No

    • It’s ALWAYS the time for snark.

    • catclub

      Katie Couric and the Today show (and its ilk-mates) seem to be endless sources of smarm. So, yes. All days with a ‘y’.

  • “Perhaps next week, Couric will host a thoughtful discussion on children’s dental care. Yes, she encouraged her own children to brush their teeth several times a day, but some people have concerns that deserve a balanced hearing.”

    Obligatory: http://youtu.be/DHVVKAKWXcg?t=1m

  • witless chum

    Antivaxers are the most tragic of all the various species of crank. Nobody’s going to die because some retired civil engineer from Connecticut thinks the World Trade Center was brought down by demolition charges. Hell, even if thinks it was blown up by the Jews in their continuing plot to do whatever it is the antisemites think the Jews are doing, he’ll probably live out his life without doing anything worse than ranting about it on the interwebs and, maybe, giving a side eye to his nice Jewish neighbors.

    Andrew Wakefield really has a lot to answer for. He’s a prime example of evil, not stupid, or someone who we can demand to know better. Some grieving parent from suburbia who’s teenage daughter died for weird or mysterious reasons and who isn’t sophisticated about how science or the internet works? They’re wrong and their frequently huge, yelling assholes about it and the kids who die because people are convinced by their hysteria will be no less dead, but at some level they don’t know better.

    Wakefield ought to get injected with all the thimersol we can find and shot into the sun.

    • anthrofred

      Except then the headline would read “Vaccine Chemical Linked to Third-Degree Burns”.

      • Sherm

        Thanks for the laugh!

      • Snarki, child of Loki

        “Vaccine Chemical Linked to Third-Degree Burns Spontaneous Human Combustion.”

        FIFY

        • Snarki, child of Loki

          try again…damn the lack of edit functions…

          “Vaccine Chemical Linked to Third-Degree Burns Spontaneous Human Combustion.”

          FIFM

    • Karen

      Exactly. The other cranks spend their own money and inflict pain on their families but don’t actually injure innocent bystanders. Anti-vaxxers. on the other hand, are actual walking bioweapons. I have three friends who got whooping cough in last winter’s Dallas outbreak, and one of them, who is 72 years old, spent a week in the hospital and his health has never completely recovered.

      Also, I have already had my 15-year-old son vaccinated for HPV and will have my 11-year-old vaccinated at his next checkup.

      • I mean, this in all seriousness: good for you. Vaccinating young men for HPV is one of the next big sexual health pushes that needs to happen.

        • mds

          I mean, this in all seriousness:

          See, you wouldn’t have needed this qualifier if you weren’t usually so snarky.

          • N__B

            Or if we knew for sure what gender he is.

          • I suffer for my craft.

          • Karen

            Shouldn’t that be “sharky?”

        • Karen

          Thanks!

        • DrDick

          It also has direct health benefits for men. This is a double plus good move.

  • Sherm

    What pisses me off about these people is that they eliminate the possibility of a rational public discussion concerning real (albeit minor) side-effects of vaccines and the safest way to administer the great number of vaccinations which young children now receive in order to avoid side effects and to ameliorate concerns parents might have regarding the possibility of presently unknown impacts they might have on a child’s developing immune system. Here in New York, a baby is suppose to have seven shots by the age of two months, including a hep b shot at birth in the hospital. I can see how a parent might want to reject that, and these sons of bitches play to them with their fear mongering.

    What I’m trying to say is that as a result of these ignorant assholes, the “debate” is whether or not to vaccinate, when it should be how and when to best vaccinate.

    • toberdog

      +1

      • Snarki, child of Loki

        The more incoherent anti-vaxxers perform a somewhat useful function.

        Vaccination against “stupid”.

        Unfortunately, it’s not 100% effective, but baby steps, people, baby steps.

    • Karen

      Like o many, many other discussions. See addiction treatment, effects of recreational drugs, absolutely anything vaguely connected to sex . . .

      • DrS, 42 year old 40 year feminist

        HPV vaccine really sets these sorts of folks off since it is most effective when given in adolescence.

  • I’ve been doing pediatrics for 30 years and the anti-vaccine folks continue to mystify me. All of the therapies we do have risk, but we do them when the benefit outweighs the risk. An anti-vaccine parent often will freely let me do things to, or prescribe medications for, their child that are several orders of magnitude more risky than vaccines without batting an eye. Vaccines are probably the safest medical procedure we have.

    • cpinva

      you have learned, as have I, over the past 30 odd years in the accounting biz, that the world is full of stupid, easily led people. those same parents bought into the gold mine tax scams of the 80’s, the cyber bubble scams of the 90’s and the Nigerian 419 cons of the aughts. rational analysis eludes them, they work on “gut” instincts, most of which are bad.

  • Bob

    There’s no mystery as to why this show was done. It’s to pander to the right wing fear of government and any organized group that is trying to help the general public. This is the result of taking individualism to its logical extreme.

    • Informant

      Except that a sizable part of anti-vaccination proponents aren’t right wingers.

      • Lee Rudolph

        Those are the “useful idiots”.

  • LeeEsq

    I’ve been wondering about something lately. When the media market had higher barriers to entry, most of the higher ups in the media market saw themselves as gate-keepers of sorts. They were supposed to keep out anything that might be seen as potentially dangerous. On one level this was very bad because it made it harder for non-mainstream groups to get their message across. The relatively easier access to media that exist today because we have many more outlets makes publication of non-mainstream ideas somewhat easier.

    At the same time, not all non-mainstream groups are equal. Some groups aren’t mainstream because what they believe is dangerous, evil, or stupid and they deserve marginalization. The gate-keeping function that the media adopted in the past made sure that movements like the anti-vaccination movement stayed small and as harmless as possible.

    • Snarki, child of Loki

      They still see themselves as “gatekeepers”.

      They just haven’t caught on that the ‘gate’ they’re ‘keeping’ is to the sewage treatment spillway.

    • BigHank53

      CBS is probably the best example of this…the national TV networks used to consider their news programming a public service that they performed in exchange for the limited monopolies granted by the FCC. They all lost money. During the deregulation craze of the eighties, some clever dicks came along and said, “Why don’t we turn the news into a profit center?” (It has to be said that they were being squeezed by cable already.) And once your news show is literally competing with everything else on the TV, including Real Housewives with Fake Breasts…well, fear and titillation and violence all draw eyeballs. And if Katie Couric can’t deliver the eyeballs, she’ll be traded to an affiliate in Des Moines for a chirpy weatherperson and two cases of Keurig k-cups.

      • DocAmazing

        Real Housewives with Fake Breasts…titillation…k-cups

        I see what you did there

        • c atclub

          Well, I sure read that comment with interest. Salacious interest.

      • LeeEsq

        I wasn’t alive at the time but before cable, I believe that the national TV networks also had an informal agreement to air their news programs at the same time. That way people had no choice but to watch the news at certain times. It also prevented one network from beating the other networks by airing a sitcome or drama when others had their news program on.

        Cable probably made the decline of news as a public service inevitable. Since cable channels were under no obligation to air the news when the networks were, they could grab viewers by showing something that people want to see. Since being an informed citizen is uncool. The networks had to respond in order to retain viewers.

  • mds

    For at least the ten thousandth time, it’s worth pointing out that “debating” the science on vaccine safety and efficacy is about as fruitful or necessary as debating the veracity of the moon landing.

    Even less so, as witless chum points out above. “The moon landing was staged … and now a bunch of you have polio” just isn’t a plausible threat.

    Perhaps next week, Couric will host a thoughtful discussion on children’s dental care.

    Hey, you know who else are a bunch of ignorant woo-spouting preening dumbshits about public health? Anti-fluoridationists! Coincidence … or conspiracy?

  • calling all toasters

    Shorter Couric: colon cancer bad, cervical cancer good.

  • DocAmazing

    Small silver linings! I have noticed that almost all of my vaccine-shy parents are now deliberately trying to distance themselves from unfashionable bible-thumpers like the Texas measles vectors and from silicone spokespeople like J. McC. Shallow though this motivation may be, it gives me an opening to get at least a few immunizations into their kids and have rational discussions about measles. Most of them eventually agree to most of the recommended immunizations, albeit over an extended period.

    • DrDick

      Having had measles, mumps, and chickenpox (and my father had shingles) as a child, those children all should thank you profusely when they grow up.

    • That is great! It must be so very tiresome.

  • FLRealist

    You know, I don’t care if they don’t vaccinate their precious little snowflakes.

    I just want them to be required to wear a sign saying, “DANGER – UNVACCINATED IDIOT. I don’t give a crap about other people’s health, so please maintain a fifty-foot buffer for safety’s sake.”

    I am on immunosuppressant drugs, and these people are endangering my life.

  • When I wade through the meaningless, ill-informed twaddle that passes for comment by many anti-vaxxers I am reminded of the old injunction “If you want your ideas to be taken seriously, have good ideas”.

  • NewishLawyer

    This is what I don’t get but what benefit does the media get from playing false equivalence from the anti-Vaxxers? Who is making the decision that the anti-Vaxxers are too large and powerful group to piss off?

    I can sort of see why the false equvalence of “Democrats say X, Republicans say Y” exists. I don’t agree with it but I can sort of see why it exists.

    I can’t see what the big media companies have to lose from pissing off Jenny McCarthy and other anti-Vaxxers.

    Why is it so hard to write some copy like:

    “Next Katie. Are anti-vaxxers putting your kids at risk from ancient diseases we once thought eradicated? Katie Couric explores how your kid might die because of stone-age thinking! It’s our big conversation.”

    • The media has neither the capacity nor the interest to evaluate medical claims, so ‘some say this is a lifesaving treatment, some say it’s dangerous poison’ tends to be the default position, whether the treatment in question is evidence-based or pure woo.

    • witless chum

      My guess is that they see OMG vaccines are killing you as a story with more eye-drawing potential than OMG cranks who won’t get vaccinated are trying to kill you. Everyone gets vaccinated, so scaring them is easier because it’s a simple equation. For people to be scared, as they should be, of antivaxers they have to make a couple extra leaps.

      Trash TV functions off making people take simple leaps in their fear-mongering, like the classic local news tease “Is your fridge killing you? Find out after these messages.”

      • herr doktor bimler

        “…are the three things announced just today which have been found to cause massive, fatal nose warts in penguins. For CBS news… Goodnight.”

        • DocAmazing

          Ha! You can’t fool me, you crafty Antipodean! Penguins got no noses!

        • I really miss Opus and Bloom County. But you left out the punch line: “Shouldn’t have been napping.”

  • Anonymous

    the obvious solution is to produce transmissible vaccines.

    unfortunately, biological weapons aversion has created a climate in which the necessary research will be difficult to fund.

  • herr doktor bimler

    Following the Slate link, I see that the guests on the show were basically spokespeople for the SaneVax group.
    These people are deeply into the grift, promoting a mail-order PCR for HPV infections (Orac over at Respectful insolence has been covering them for a couple of years). The doctor who devised their test, and subsequently became the SaneVax subcontractor for it, had lost his access to a laboratory by then, but was somehow able to continue providing test results.
    Did the interviews happen to mention the scams, or the conflict of interest?

  • Eleanor

    I’m not going to bother waiting around for the reaction to this post, but here goes:

    I have two daughters, who are now 18 and 20. They received every other vaccination available, I think, except this one. Why? Because when it first came out, while they were in middle school, their peers who were getting it kept passing out, and conking their heads. It was also very expensive, and we didn’t have health insurance at that time. I decided to wait and see, and not have my girls be beta test subjects for this vaccine.

    I’m still waiting. After having read the comments, I also want to point out that I am farther left politically than 99.99% of Americans. I also want to point out that the SWP of the US is nowhere near as fringey and culty as the SWP (apparently) of the UK. Totally different animal.

    • US SWP was a cult of Cannon.

      UK SWP was a cult of Cliff.

      There that spells out the differences between the two main cult like Trotskyite parties of the English speaking world.

    • Eleanor

      Oh, f*ck me, I’m going to reply to my own post with a further comment – I admit to using herd immunity to ease my mind in this case – Daughter #1 is a self-professed asexual virgin. Daughter #2 has had sex with only one young man, who had the vaccine at age 13. He was dizzy for a couple of days afterwards, but didn’t pass out.

      And if you want anecdotes, I could tell you about the expensive cello that was broken when the male of a set of fraternal twins passed out the day after his shot, and broke it, while his female twin raced through the halls to get to his side when she heard of his state. Rich school district – all the parents were going for both sex vaccination with the HPV virus.

      • If you are really bored you could go comment on my blog. But, I don’t have anything on vaccines. It isn’t controversial to get them here in Africa. I am waiting for the malaria vaccine to come out soon. I hate getting malaria.

      • Manju

        Daughter #2 has had sex with only one young man, who had the vaccine at age 13. He was dizzy for a couple of days afterwards, but didn’t pass out.

        Wow! Minutes I can see. But days?

        • herr doktor bimler

          He was dizzy for a couple of days afterwards

          WAY too much information.

          • Manju

            …or not enough.

    • Hi Eleanor,

      I did some looking around but I found no discussion (e.g., at the CDC) for persistent dizziness after an HPV vaccine. Did anyone report this?

      All the CDC says is:

      HPV–Cervarix… Fainting
      Brief fainting spells and related symptoms (such as jerking movements) can happen after any medical procedure, including vaccination. Sitting or lying down for about 15 minutes after a vaccination can help prevent fainting and injuries caused by falls. Tell your doctor if the patient feels dizzy or light-headed, or has vision changes or ringing in the ears.

      HPV-Gardasil…Fainting. Brief fainting spells and related symptoms (such as jerking movements) can happen after any medical procedure, including vaccination. Sitting or lying down for about 15 minutes after a vaccination can help prevent fainting and injuries caused by falls. Tell your doctor if thepatient feels dizzy or light-headed, or has vision changes or ringing in the ears.
      Like all vaccines, HPV vaccines will continue to be monitored for unusual or severe problems.

      But this sort of warning occurs in many of the vaccine side effect lists.

      I wouldn’t rely on herd immunity for this as coverage rates are still rather low.

      • Eleanor

        Hi Bijan – I’m going to go out on a limb here and guess that you have never actually spent time with a young person who has been given Gardasil. Because from the many reports from friends of my daughters, Gardasil is not exactly like other vaccines. It really causes a major reaction in a small portion of kids who receive it. They faint. They feel ill for days. They feel dizzy for days. They fall down the day after, two days after. And then they have to go get the second shot, and it happens all over again. Not like other vaccines.

        I have no idea why. I guess it’s worth it to their parents. Not to me.

        Talk to pediatricians, though – their approach changed dramatically after the first few kids took a dive on them – they watch the kids carefully afterwards. Don’t tell me they have to do that with DPT shots or mumps vaccines.

  • Eleanor

    Your blog being the one that swiftly dispatches ardent political groups with trenchant one-liners?

    I admit that I know little of the SWP in the U.S. after leaving it 36 years ago, but I think calling it a cult of Cannon is a little too pat.

    BTW, all you fervent posters above – you do realize that my daughters’ chances of dying from cervical cancer from a virus prevented by the HPV vaccine are nearly infinitesimally small, right? I mean, I let them drive, y’all. Since I banked the $200 per shot that I saved by not having them vaccinated, their odds are 100% of having an increased inheritance.

    • Well, you could go read it. But, no I only have one post on the British SWP and none on Cannon’s outfit. Here is my most popular post according to my site meter.

      http://jpohl.blogspot.com/2011/06/brief-history-of-communism-in-africa.html

      • Lee Rudolph

        But, no I only have one post on the British SWP and none on Cannon’s outfit.

        Well, what are you waiting for? Here’s your chance to get in on the ground floor and establish the Ghanan Cannon canon.

        • Actually it appears the US SWP became a full fledged cult under Jack Barnes after Cannon had left the scene. But, we don’t have any vanguard parties in Ghana. Here the mass party was always the model.

    • Hogan

      I think calling it a cult of Cannon is a little too pat.

      You’re giving J. Otto too much credit here; it’s way beyond pat.

      • Okay the difference is US SWP thought the USSR was a deformed workers’ state and the UK SWP thought the USSR was state capitalist. Both of these positions are stupid, but the sectarian splits between Trotskyite cults is based upon minutia and cult leadership. Barnes had cult around himself not much different than the Maoist groups like the RCP and Shining Path.

        • Malaclypse

          This is marvelously germane to a post about vaccination.

It is main inner container footer text