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Pity the poor Onion writers

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I’m pretty much entirely neutral about how marriage for same sex couples is legalized; our political system provides multiple pathways for working to bring about such change, and I’m not interested in pretending that some are inherently more ‘legitimate’ than others. You take the positive social change where you can get it. That said, I did find the popular victories of last November unusually satisfying, as they a) gave me the opportunity to feel warm and fuzzy about my fellow citizens, and b) badly punctured on of the most cherished narratives of the bigots.

On the other hand: social change via the courts is not without its charms. In particular: our opponents are forced to attempt to make actual, non-BS arguments for denying gays and lesbians equal rights. As various strategies fail, the arguments are getting increasingly bizarre, which contributes to the all-important task of discrediting these fools. A report on legal strategies in California:

WASHINGTON — Marriage should be limited to unions of a man and a woman because they alone can “produce unplanned and unintended offspring,” opponents of gay marriage have told the Supreme Court.

By contrast, when same-sex couples decide to have children, “substantial advance planning is required,” said Paul D. Clement, a lawyer for House Republicans.

This unusual defense of traditional marriage was set out last week in a pair of opening legal briefs in the two gay marriage cases to be decided by the Supreme Court this spring.

 

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  • Slocum

    Why can’t gays get married? Non sequitur, that’s why!

    • ploeg

      The argument works just as well for the unrestricted ownership of shotguns, which everybody obviously needs in case an impromptu wedding is required.

      • rm

        mathematical symbol indicating approval

      • Halloween Jack
      • Vance Maverick

        No, we need guns because they allow for unplanned or unintended homicide.

        • rm

          Only the unplanned, unintended {homicides/children} are truly miracle gifts from God.

  • Pingback: The Worst Anti-Gay Marriage Argument Ever « 520 Chestnut()

  • rea

    Sounds like an argument for banning hetero marriage.

    • c u n d gulag

      Yeah, I kinda read it the same way.
      LOL!

    • DrDick

      Yep, and I have been married and have reproduced.

  • Winchester

    Same-sex couples should not be allowed to “pro-create”, to “have children”.

    I mean — would you be happy to have two fathers? Pouah. Isn’t the mere thought of it disgusting, revolting?

    • Malaclypse

      I mean — would you be happy to have two fathers?

      If they were both like my dad? Hell yes. Dad was great. Sorry you can’t relate.

      Isn’t the mere thought of it disgusting, revolting?

      This really says more about you than you probably want to share.

      • DrDick

        I suspect that, like so many conservatives, he has serious daddy issues. As to the other, I do not care what he wants, I really hope he does not decide to share that with us.

        • Keaaukane

          Few can top Peggy Nooners father fixation on Reagen.

    • witless chum

      Seems to me I’d get double the pancakes.

      • Malaclypse

        See, my dad always made bacon, then scrambled eggs in the pan with the bacon grease. Doubling that is actually perhaps the single best argument against marriage equality that I can think of.

        • Woodrowfan

          my Dad made the best French toast!

        • TribalistMeathead

          I could never get the hang of cooking eggs in bacon grease. It always came out disgusting. Maybe I used too much bacon grease.

          • Linnaeus

            You can drain off most of it (plus that much bacon grease has plenty in it that’s quite bad for you); what’s left in the pan after you pour off the grease is more than enough.

            • TribalistMeathead

              It wasn’t like there was a quarter-inch of grease in the pan or anything, it was the grease from frying maybe 2-3 strips of bacon.

              • BigHank53

                You weren’t using stainless steel, were you? Not the best material for skillets.

                • TribalistMeathead

                  Yeah. I know I need to experiment with cast-iron cooking, but first I probably need a home with a gas range.

          • Bruce Baugh

            Linneaus is right about the draining.

          • Are you using Washington Free Bacon grease ’cause that might be your problem right there.

            • TribalistMeathead

              Listen, if you know of better Free Bacon, I’m all ears.

        • djillionsmix

          even if you like it you’d probably have a heart attack by age 9.

      • rea

        And I, and my partenr of 21 years, just finished making pancakes for our four kids, before sending them off to school. None of them seem particualrly traumatized by the experience.

    • DrDick

      My son was quite happy being raised by his, admittedly straight, single father (and his wife approves of the job I did), so why would two fathers be a bad thing? You seem not familiar with the concept of logic.

      • JKTHs

        But…but…but…how would you know who to play catch with in the backyard?

        • Joey Maloney

          One pitches, the other catches. Simple.

          • What finish would you like for your new internets today, sir?

        • Bill Murray

          the simple solution is a three-way game of catch

          • JKTHs

            Blasphemy!

    • ChrisTS

      Is this a Poe’s Law moment?

  • Jeff R.

    I had to follow the link to see what the context of the argument was. It didn’t seem to help. As near as I can make it out, the argument is marriage should be limited to opposite sex couples because same sex couples can’t have a shotgun wedding. Am I missing some subtlety to the argument?

    • sibusisodan

      It’s a v weird argument. The idea seems to be that we can trust same sex couples to plan a family appropriately, so they don’t need this marriage thing.

      Whereas hetero couples may sprog at any moment, causing the downfall of society, cats and dogs living together and children out of wedlock. So they need marriage to corral them into stability for the good of the nation.

      Marriage: a necessary evil for the heteros. Gay people are too good for it, and it would only sully them, which we’re too kind hearted to wish on them.

      It’s a novel, creative and thoroughly adorable line of argument. This will be fun.

      • Bruce Baugh

        Geez. Some years back, Teresa Nielsen Hayden commented that a lot of Republican leaders’ real view of homosexuality is “Much too good for the common people.” Apparently she was right.

        • CJColucci

          That all sounds about like what I was going to say, so thanks for saving me the work.

  • Winchester

    Oh, my hairdresser is so CUTE, and he always tells me how cute my outfit is. I can’t judge him for being a sodomite! And my nephew is such a sweetie, and he always played with dolls, even when he was little. How dare you say he can’t jam his penis into another man’s feces-laden colon and mouth!

    • BigHank53

      Do you always spend this much time thinking about gay sex? Before breakfast? Not that I’m implying anything, mind you, but this seems to really matter to you, and you might want to ask yourself why.

      Alternatively, of course, you’re just trolling. Badly. Have a nice day!

      • DrDick

        Most gays I know do not obsess about gay sex this much.

        • drkrick

          They probably get to have some. Makes it easier to think about other stuff once in a while.

    • dave

      This comment somehow manages to be absolutely adorable and utterly hateful all at the same time. It’s a dessert topping and a floor wax!

      • NonyNony

        In this case, I think you mean it’s a pancake topping and a floor wax.

        Or perhaps a desert topping and a pancake wax.

        • Woodrowfan

          sounds more Waffle House than IHOP.

          • witless chum

            Which is which? I’ve always thought IHOP was a step up from Dennys.

            • TribalistMeathead

              It is.

              • Malaclypse
                • Malaclypse

                  And I read that backwards. Oops. Yes, Denny’s is the bottom of the fake-diner chains.

                • TribalistMeathead

                  Well, if we’re adding the qualifier “unless you’re black,” then Cracker Barrel drops below Denny’s.

            • witless chum

              But where’s the Waffle House situated on the scale? We don’t really have them in Michigan, though I think there’s one over towards Benton Harbor.

              • TribalistMeathead

                Well jeez, if regional chains count as well..

        • Kurzleg

          Mmmmmmmm, pancake wax.

    • FLRealist

      I see you’ve thought about this a lot.

    • rea

      How sad–he doesn’t seem to realize that this is about love, not sex.

      • DrDick

        I doubt he has ever experienced either, at least not with another person.

        • JMP

          Now, a lot of hate-filled antisocial troglodytes have experienced sex; they just have to hire paid professionals to do so.

          As for sex with someone who actually wants to have sex with them instead of just doing so for the money, however, that’s another story.

        • expatchad

          FAP!

          9.5 points

    • DrDick

      How I pity anyone who knows you and has to deal with you on a daily basis. You know you would be much less angry and tense if you just embraced your own sexuality and desires.

      • The Dark Avenger

        Dr. Dick, he’s obviously afraid of this:

        In May of last year, the worst conservative fears had come true — our president announced that he didn’t care if gay people got married. You or I might call that apathy, or maybe basic human decency. Fox News, of course, called it a War on Marriage. Brave husbands around the nation took one last look at their wives before devouring one another’s defeated yet eager penises. The straights had lost the war, and with it their right to an uncocked mouth. “I never knew unconditional surrender could feel so good,” the straight husband said through frothy lips still moist from their first bite of dick. His words were given only a whisper of a response. .. the heterosexual husband tongue probing his butthole remained as silent as a garden slug.

        There’s no real cute way to break down the main conservative argument — that same-sex unions somehow cloud the concept of traditional marriage. They obviously don’t. If some guy married a baseball glove full of Jell-O, they’d still recognize you and your wife as the regular married couple and him as the maniac arguing with a gooey catcher’s mitt. How ugly is your wife that you need to oppress millions of innocent people in order for us to tell the difference?

        Conservatives have proud traditions in this country that they “fight” to protect, and what that basically means is that they think they can still be racist and homophobic if they do it carefully. Nobody at Fox News truly cares about “attacks on traditional marriage.” If they did, they’d spend all their time complaining about divorce, which is fucking exactly that every time it happens. If you’re not complaining about divorce or interracial marriage or why you’re not allowed to shut your woman up with a stick, then you don’t care about marital traditions. You just hate gay people. Or more specifically, devoted, loving gay people. If you deny that, yet still want to deny them rights, then fine — I guess you’re saying all men are created equal except for homos. Most of us can’t pretend to be that stupid simply to protect our unconfronted homophobia, though.

        I don’t want this article to spark a lot of shallow political arguments. I know some of you out there want to ruin the lives of gay couples for noble, non-political reasons. If you’re one of those people and reading this now, I respect what you’re doing for this nation. And I’m sure your mother’s abortion doctor is relieved to know that the “biggest mistake of his career” defied the odds and learned to read.

        http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-8-greatest-wars-ever-fought-by-fox-news_p2/#ixzz2JNUxshml

    • spencer

      I can’t judge him for being a sodomite!

      No, you really can’t. Mainly because it’s none of your goddamn business.

      And my nephew is such a sweetie, and he always played with dolls, even when he was little. How dare you say he can’t jam his penis into another man’s feces-laden colon and mouth!

      My nephew is now a fully-grown adult, with an education and a career and everything. He can do what he wants – and yes, that includes having sex with his boyfriend.

      You know what else? My nephew is a teacher. I hope that enrages you and brings you just a little bit closer to having that inevitable stroke.

    • ChrisTS

      Holy Whatever. You are serious!

  • Ken

    So legalizing same-sex marriage would remove the only thing that makes us different from cats and cockroaches.

    • Spud

      Cats are better than most human beings. They are not duty bound by their owners (aka their staff) and they leave their poop in the box. My cat already Pavlov’ed me when it comes to feeding time.

      Anyone who understands urban planning knows that cities are better suited for the habitation of roaches than humans. We are their servants not their betters

    • redwoods

      If that’s how you view marriage, one desperately hopes you haven’t seen fit to partake.

      • Ken

        Hmm, I hadn’t intended it to be read that way, but I suppose it could. Let me rephrase:

        The people who argue that marriage should be restricted to couples that can produce unplanned offspring are idiots. Cats and cockroaches can produce unplanned offspring; humans should aspire to something better.

  • Greco

    So… I couldn’t get married because I’m sterile?

    • Woodrowfan

      yep. Fertility tests will now be required. And it’s just too bad for those of us past 45..

      • Breadbaker

        No, no, no, no, no. It’s in Genesis, Abram and Sarai, she was 100 and he was 99 and they had a kid, so obviously there is no age limit to heterosexual procreation.

        • ChrisTS

          Don’t we have to get a note, or something, to prove we are among the elect?

    • This was my initial thought. I thought the whole “gays can’t procreate so they shouldn’t be able to marry” argument was beaten down a while ago. Apparently they found a new angle to try.

    • hickes01

      Breadbaker, you stole my thunder! I was going to suggest the older people are now eligible for marriage and the crazies will soon be picketing clinics vasaetomys.

  • TT

    Marriage should be limited to unions of a man and a woman because they alone can “produce unplanned and unintended offspring,” opponents of gay marriage have told the Supreme Court.

    Reminds me of that episode of Larry Sanders where Hank sleeps with Larry’s ex-wife but then later confesses, pleading that it was an “accident”. Larry says, “What, did she trip and fall on your penis?”

    • TribalistMeathead

      Dr. Dre and Eminem did it better.

      “There’s probably a good explanation for all this…”

      “What, she tripped, fell, landed on his dick?!”

    • Hogan

      Sure, sure, I know… it just happened. Coulda happened to anybody. It was an accident, right? You tripped, slipped on the floor and accidentally stuck your dick in my wife. “Whoops! I’m so sorry, Mrs. H. I guess this just isn’t my week.”

      The Last Boy Scout, 1991

  • So it’s an argument based on hatred of contraception, basically. It doesn’t count as a real marriage unless you’re gonna get stuck with unplanned children, just like they don’t count the marriage if your wife is on the pill. “You only have two children? WHORE!

  • cer

    I’m curious about the claim this is a novel or new argument. The “accidental procreation” or “responsible procreation” argument dates back at least to 2005 in Morrison v. Sadler (in Indiana). Dan Savage described it as the straight people falling down drunk and getting up pregnant argument.

    • djw

      I’d managed to completely forget about that.

    • Glenn

      It was also, sadly, accepted by the NY Court of Appeals in Hernandez v Robles — one of the most embarrassing opinions ever to come down from that Court.

      • Glenn

        oops…as RSP had already noted below. Serves me right for not reading the comment thread all the way through.

  • c u n d gulag

    “By contrast, when same-sex couples decide to have children, “substantial advance planning is required,” said Paul D. Clement, a lawyer for House Republicans.”

    Uhm…
    Then, shouldn’t Conservatives be FOR gay marriage, since it takes all of that “advance planning?” (They make deciding to have a child sound like planning for retirement).
    Conservative are all about “advanced planning,” arent they? Like estate and retirement planning, voter suppression, and changing the Electoral College rules only in certain states.
    You don’t just wake up one morning, and say, “Hey! Let me suppress that black couple down the block’s right to vote today – it’s Election Day!”

    And no “unplanned and unintended offspring,” means, no, or less, abortions – amarite?

    With all of that “advanced planning,” Gay marriage sounds very Conservative to me.

    • Michael

      I think its something like the “state has an interest in children being raised in 2-parent households. Homosexuals are extremely unlikely to end up with an unplanned pregnancy, resulting in a single-parent household. Heterosexuals, however, do end up with unplanned pregnancies, and therefore the government could rationally offer them an incentive to stay together (marriage) that’s not extended to homosexual couples.”

      It’s a bad argument that proves too much…why offer marriage to anyone prior to their pregnancy then? Why allow individuals who can’t procreate to get marry? Etc.

      • djillionsmix

        Homosexuals are extremely unlikely to end up with an unplanned pregnancy, resulting in a single-parent household.

        the birth of children to people in gay marriages results in single parent households?

    • CD

      Clearly you haven’t been following arguments about climate change.

      God will take care of you! Any effort to think ahead is an insult to Him.

  • MAJeff

    As ridiculous as Clement’s argument is, as I recall, the Washington State Supreme Court adopted it when they rejected a marriage equality challenge. (About 2005ish, as I recall.)

  • I now oppose gay men getting married because I can force neither to carry a child inside their bodies against their will.

    • FLRealist

      By that measure, then you should support lesbian marriages because you get double the forced pregnancies!

      • I see a split in the anti-gay marriage groups on the horizon!

        • ChrisTS

          Whoa, Dude. My daughter has made it very clear that the only ‘carrier’ in her relationship will be her girlfriend.

          Of course, that does fit in with the ‘no unplanned pregnancies’ meme.

          Oh dear, it’s all so confusing. If only the bigots would stick with one argument.

    • speak truth’s mom’s pancake fumes

      Sure you can! You’ll just need a scalpel, a child and the element of surprise. And some stitches or something.

      • BigHank53

        I have a sudden vision involving all those “snowflake babies” and the Log Cabin Republicans. Two birds, one stone…

    • CD

      And their excellent interior decorating. Their impeccable dress. It’s an insult to the rest of us.

  • NonyNony

    If I’m getting the LA Times article correctly, the Republican lawyers are basically using the “Timmy gets more X-box time than Sally because Mommy and Daddy know that Sally won’t take a razor blade to their furniture when she gets bored the way Timmy will” defense of the unequal treatment between straight and gay couples. I wonder what that kind of defense is called in Latin.

    Given that everyone here is an adult, I’m not sure that kind of defense actually works. But it is interesting how they’ve moved the bar away from “marriage is a sacred institution that will be destroyed if gays are allowed to marry” to “marriage is a method the state uses to control its unruly population” in an eyeblink. (What’s Latin for “whatever works”?)

    • Sweetums

      que sera?

  • Snarki, child of Loki

    Well, it’s clear that the USSC isn’t going to resolve this whole gay-marriage issue until a case comes up with as awesome a name as “Loving v. Virginia”.

    (q: did Virginia get their state motto ‘Virginia is for lovers’ before or after this?)

    As for the “kids with two fathers” argument, please keep in mind that the new testament has that dude Jesus with two dads (okay, custody issues, but still), AND the genealogies for Joseph give him two dads. So, wait? Doesn’t that PROVE that kids can catch Teh Gey from their “parents”? Better ask a fundamentalist, I’m sure they’ll have an interesting take on the situation.

    • William Burns

      Its the tourism motto, not the official motto, which is “sic semper tyrannis,” which comes with its own problems. After Virginia passed their anti same-sex marriage amendment, the joke was the tourism motto would be changed to “Virginia is for lovers. Some restrictions apply.”

      • Julian

        I did not know that Virginia’s official motto was the phrase most famous for being uttered by Lincoln’s assassin.

        Now I do.

        • rea

          Other way around, though–Lincoln’s assassin quoted the Virginia state motto (which is derived from Brutus murdering Caesar)

          • Julian

            Ohhhhh – I always thought he was just quoting Brutus!

    • CJColucci

      After.

  • NorthLeft12

    This unusual defense of traditional marriage was set out last week in a pair of opening legal briefs in the two gay marriage cases to be decided by the Supreme Court this spring.

    Your tax dollars at work.

  • RSP

    As at least one other person noted, this isn’t new or unusual. This basic argument was accepted by the NY Court of Appeals in 2006 (and I believe the courts in Maryland and Washington may have agreed as well but it’s been a while). I loved having my conservative Mormon students read the NY case and get outraged at the idea that their “real” marriages were necessary because heterosexuals are inherently unstable and need the state to prop them up.

    • cer

      In particular the phrasing implies that marriage is the only thing that keeps men from impregnating women and wandering off, as if men were all Savage Man as conceived by Rousseau. The HvR ruling also distinguishes itself by saying that it’s cool to assume that children need a father and a mother in spite of having absolutely no evidence to support this (and this ruling will ensure a two-parent home) because MAGIC!

  • Julian

    I think Clement, who is not stupid, knows the argument is silly, but he also knows that in order for Kennedy to vote against a right to SSM, Kennedy will a fig leaf to excuse it – because even if the Court finds that this law merits mere rational basis review, they need SOME kind of facially logical argument.

    I know, and Clement knows, that Kennedy wrote Lawrence v. Texas, but he’s praying that Kennedy does not extend the logic of that decision all the way to a right to marry.

    I haven’t read the briefs, but it seems to me that even if you accept these insane premises, there’s a logical flaw – why does offering marriage to SS couples in any way reduce the effectiveness or availability of straight marriages? I can imagine an argument, something like “marriage’s tax benefits reduce state income, so marriage costs the state money, so we can limit its availability,” but I’m not sure he’s making that argument.

    • NonyNony

      why does offering marriage to SS couples in any way reduce the effectiveness or availability of straight marriages?

      Not a lawyer, and obviously haven’t read the briefs myself, but this sounds more like a strategy to change to conversation. The argument that the gay-marriage advocates want to have is “marriage is a way that the state is choosing to privilege some couples in a discriminatory manner over other couples, and that should end – equal access is the right way to end it” (or some variation on that).

      This seems like an attempt to change the argument to “marriage isn’t a privilege, it’s a tool that the State uses to achieve a particular end. And since the State has an interest in keeping child-bearing couples together and no interest in keeping non-child bearing couples together, the State can draw that line wherever it feels like it, so this line is as good a point as any and you should leave it up to individual states to decide where exactly they want that line to be drawn”.

      To me, it looks quite cynical. And I’d love to have some freedom loving Republican come and tell me whether or not this particular form of Statism is approved by the Ghost of Imaginary Ronald Reagan or not.

      • CJColucci

        For a non-lawyer, you have just put the best-available bad argument as succinctly and clearly as anyone could want.

  • KeithOK

    This also explains their opposition to Planned Parenthood.

  • John

    These people believe, I assume, that post-menopausal women should not be allowed to marry.

    • TribalistMeathead

      Part of a conversation a rabidly left-wing friend had with the rabidly right-wing mother of a mutual friend:

      “Well, gays shouldn’t be able to marry because they can’t have children”

      “But you can’t have children and you just remarried”

      “Yes, but I could have children at one time”

      • Uncle Kvetch

        “Yes, but I could have children at one time”

        We had a homophobe trolling here for awhile (hiya Fitz, wherever you are…here’s hoping you finally came out already) and he attempted the same maneuver: “it’s not necessary that a given couple literally be capable of procreating, because any male-female couple is able to procreate by definition, in a vague existential philosophical sense that I made up just now.”

        Talk about your “penumbras.”

        • Malaclypse

          Fritz taught in the same department as Donalde, if memory serves.

          • John Protevi

            Fitz =/= Fritz.

            Insert “you can’t know your trolls without a scorecard” joke.

            • John Protevi
              • Uncle Kvetch

                Thanks, John!

                I am discerning a call to the priesthood

                Wow. Didn’t see that coming.

              • djw

                I remember Fritz. Feeble attempts at gotchas, usually directed at SEK. Far more composed than fitz, but more dreary as well–less genuine, sincere and excitable.

      • hickes01

        Not to change the subject, but I had a similar argument with MY rabidly right-wing stepmother:

        SM : “I don’t believe in Socialized Medicine:

        ME: “Do you have Medicare?”

        SM : “Yes:

        ME: “YOU have Socialized Medical Coverage”

        SM: “Well, I earned it”

        • xxy

          People should only get what they have earned. Which is why I leave the products of my unplanned pregnancies in a back alley. If they manage to survive to age 18 they’ll get all the rights that come with being the age of majority, and they’ll have earned every single one of them! Isn’t marriage grand?

    • rea

      And you know, gays are perfectly capable of having children, I assure you. These four we have came from somewhere, after all . . .

    • Karen

      They don’t think post-menopausal women should be allowed in public, where we could assault their innocent eyes with our wrinkles, grey hair, and bigger than size 2 bodies. Remember, with conservatives, EWWWWWW GROSSSSSS constitutes brilliant argument.

  • Jameson Quinn

    But what about the Virgin Mary?

    • Malaclypse

      It doesn’t get more unplanned than that.

      • speak truth’s mom’s pancake fumes

        Actually, the Holy Spurt had been stalking her for YEARS and was just waiting for puberty to hit.

    • Dan Brown

      I’ve discovered an uncrackable code in the substrate of Boticelli’s Birth of Venus. It says:

      yag saw yraM

      If you’re intrigued, meet me at the south corner of the wailing wall on Fig Tuesday; I’ll be disguised in a burqa.

      • witless chum

        Sounds more fun than reading that slog of a book. I’m in!

  • DocAmazing

    Look, this is perfectly logical, and of a piece with conservative thought. Bear with me: Socialism is bad, right? And what’s one of the defining features of socialism? Centralized planning, and a planned economy. So by extension, planning of pregnancies interferes with the Free Market–it gets in the way of Adam Smith’s Invisible Pecker.

    It all makes sense, sorta.

  • Njorl

    You can argue that the Onion is being squeezed out of the market by genuine crazy conservatives, but a new market is opening up. They can now run whacky stories about conservatives being reasonable!

  • Joe

    The NY Court of Appeals, rightly ridiculed by Dan Savage, accepted this stupid argument which at most means sex and sexual orientation discrimination shouldn’t meet heightened scrutiny. It should, but that’s just one problem with the argument. It in effect belittles marriage, making it very small.

    • dave

      I agree with this. I am a strong proponent of same sex marriage and this argument strikes me as the most logically defensible argument. Ironically, the very premise of the argument utterly devalues marriage as an institution. If successful, this argument itself would do more to destroy marriage than same sex marriage ever could.

  • Crackity Jones

    I don’t feel like I’d be missing out if I never had a male or female parent. I had only unmarried aunts, so I never had an uncle by blood or marriage. No first cousins either. I don’t feel like I’m missing out, and I don’t feel like I would have missed out if raised by two moms and two dads. Every child should be so lucky to have two parents. This isn’t the argument, I know, I was just reminded.

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  • Erin

    Of course post-menopausal women are allowed to marry, it’s just not an attack on the sanctity of marriage when the man decides to trade in for a younger model at that point. Call it the Gingrich Doctrine.

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