My offer is nothing
Last week a Boston law firm got a lot of publicity when it advertised an associate position with a $10,000 salary. A lot of people emailed me about it, which indicates the word hasn’t gotten around that lots of legal jobs these days pay approximately $10,000 less than $10,000 per year. Like this one for example:
Date: 2012-06-08, 4:59PM EDT
Reply to: kt3fw-3065858209@job.craigslist.org
NY Competitive Internship Program: Admitted Attorneys, Foreign Attorney, Law Graduates, ParalegalsSmall NY Law Firm with offices in Maspeth, Queens & Westchester County, White Plains. Boutique immigration and criminal defense law firm hosting a 3-month regimented internship program. We seek 2 (two) interns to learn and assist in law firm responsibilities. A friendly, fast-paced international environment to gain experience and learn while working with supportive colleagues. Spanish, Polish, Russian, Portuguese, Arabic, a plus.
The Office is located in White Plains, NY in Westchester County. Partner is an ex-criminal prosecutor, a former assistant district attorney in NY City and attorneys are experienced immigration and criminal defense attorneys with a track record of success in complex criminal & immigration cases.
Excellent training for a newly admitted attorney looking to jump start their resume with immediate and intense law firm and court experience. Excellent training for a law student or graduate needing to obtain crucial experience in immigration or criminal defense work in a competitive market or needing experience to apply to district attorney’s offices, public defender’s offices or the department of homeland security. Several of our interns and staff have gone on to become prosecutors, public defenders, judicial law clerks, successful private practitioners, an immigration prosecutor and an administrative law judge.
Also perfect for a foreign attorney seeking to get experience in an American law firm. Foreign attorney will, of course, receive legal training and assignments commensurate with their background and position. The work will be on par with similarly complex legal work of a law graduate intern awaiting admission to the bar.
Intern will gain experience in all aspects of defense practice, and will work under supervision of partner, and other experienced attorneys. Intern will receive training in
1) initially evaluating all type of immigration, criminal and some civil cases,
2) writing correspondence and legal motions,
3) completing immigration and other legal applications,
4) interviewing clients, going to court accompanied by a lawyer, visiting clients in prison,
5) working with investigators and forensic experts and
6) assisting in analyzing & investigating criminal and immigration cases in preparation for trial.
Intern will be provided with own desk space, use of high speed Internet, telephone. An extensive book of training materials on immigration and criminal defense will also be provided.
A strong letter of recommendation will be provided upon successful completion of internship. An evaluation and exit interview will be conducted.
All foreign languages, especially Polish, Portuguese, Russian, Spanish or Arabic a plus. Law firm can provide academic credit under school program as internship or externship. Please note that this is an internship position to gain valuable experience only. Only serious candidates able and willing to make a minimum 3-month commitment should apply. Please email resume and cover letter with possible starting dates and schedule to hiring partner at above address.
Location: Queens/ White Plains, Westchester County
Compensation: Internship
Principals only. Recruiters, please don’t contact this job poster.
Please, no phone calls about this job!
Please do not contact job poster about other services, products or commercial interests.
Speaking of trying to get something for free, can some law talking guy (or gal) explain whether there’s a respectable legal argument that this isn’t illegal?
Speaking of trying to get something for free, can some law talking guy (or gal) explain whether there’s a respectable legal argument that this isn’t illegal?
I’m assuming this was not a real question, but the DOL is pretty clear.
They certainly nailed 5 and 6.
Oh it was a real question. I could have guessed there was some multi-factor “test” out there, which the Job Creators no doubt believe they’re not violating.
At least twice a year, one of my bosses comes to me with a Clever Unpaid Internship plan. I actually keep that site bookmarked for whenever this happens.
Oh it was a real question. I could have guessed there was some multi-factor “test” out there, which the Job Creators no doubt believe they’re not violating.
I’m sure Scalia’s clerks are at work on this as we speak…
The clerks that are paid, right?
For now.
4.The employer that provides the training derives no immediate advantage from the activities of the intern; and on occasion its operations may actually be impeded
Permit me to doubt that this program, or very many others, qualify. If the employer isn’t gaining anything, why does it have the program?
No immediate advantage =/= not gaining anything. Building goodwill. Maintaining a relationship with an educational institution. Contributing to the development of one’s profession.
Training one’s eventual co-workers.
According to the DOL, that can’t be part of it. If you think it might lead to a job, then it’s job training per se and thus must be paid for.
Nope – ruled out by this:
This rule sounds like a great thing. Unfortunately, my (thirdhand) impression is that it is profoundly normal for unpaid internships to be used in just such a manner – perhaps not to directly transition to paid employment in the same previously unpaid position, but to transition to other, paid work in the same firm.
Almost all unpaid internships are illegal, yes. The levels of noncompliance with this are something that I find simply astounding.
So if employer and unpaid intern agree, who is left with standing to complain?
In a sensible world, the person who expected minimum wage, but was underbid.
So if employer and unpaid intern agree, who is left with standing to complain?
The intern who has been forced into such a position for lack of better options has standing to complain.
The rest of society has standing to complain, given our interest in living in a society where there is a decent minimum standard of living for working people.
Related question: do you think it would be fair for me to sell life jackets to drowning people for $10 000 each? Should their promise to pay me that sum be considered legally binding?
Ploeg,
Well, pretty obviously, if the requirement for entry to professional life is the ability to move to a new city, dress professionally, and cover your living expenses for six months or a year, all unpaid by your employer (or anyone else), and the rewards of a professional life are afterwards remotely significant, I’m sure we can think of some people unable to meet such requirements with standing to complain.
And that’s leaving aside the complaints from people who are being exploited (but do have the money to endure the exploitation). Not to mention the realization dawning on those who’ve completed their
hazinginternship and then don’t get the job whose pay and prospects would compensate them for what they’ve endured.So basically what we’re saying is that the people who have standing to complain are typically people without much of their own money. This might have some bearing on our problem.
Also for standing: any taxpayer, when the intern qualifies for food stamps and medicaid because the employer willfully broke the law.
As far as standing goes, the unpaid intern could bring an action against the employer for minimum wage payment despite the fact that the intern agreed to the deal.
And the AG could bring an action against the employer for violating minimum wage laws.
No body else could bring an action.
Ian,
you write as if that were some weird hypothetical.
And in response ot Malacapyse’s last post, not true (if you are talking about legal standing). A taxpayer has no standing to bring a legal action against the employer or the intern for violating the minimum wage law.
No, I was being sarcastic. But the point stands that unpaid internships are subsidized by the rest of society.
I agree with you there. And I’m astounded, as you are, that the practice is so common despite being clearly illegal.
Mala, you are making a very good case that the law should be abolished: a law that almost nobody respect is always a bad one.
I was going to post that there is some value in “trying before committing” for interns, and that “no immediate benefit” doesn’t mean that they can’t provide actual benefits. But then I realized – all of my experience with mentoring interns was with paid interns – because it was IT work and in the IT world you pay your interns (or at least you did in the 90s/early 00′s when I was living in the corporate world).
Frankly the whole “unpaid intern” thing never made much sense to me. It seems like a way for rich kids who can live off their parents to network their way into jobs while shutting out kids from families who don’t have as much money to throw around.
Yep, we have a great program here. People between their second and third year can do an industrial experience year for which they get full paid (and quite well too).
Indeed. In the end, you’re pretty much worth what you’re paid, more or less.
“It seems like a way for rich kids who can live off their parents to network their way into jobs while shutting out kids from families who don’t have as much money to throw around.”
yup.
Occasionally, I see IT internships that are also unpaid:
Also, I think startup culture is rancid, but yeah, I have no idea who the hell would actually apply for that job.
C’mon, when mumble cousines by marriage mumble worked for Christie’s and Sotheby’s as unpaid interns I thought it was clear that they were meant to live off their parents to find investment banker husbands while shutting out kids from families who don’t have as much money to throw around. And actually they did learn a ton of stuff about…mmm…Chinese pottery and something else? After having studied it at school? But this must be some special thing Sotheby’s/Christie’s did for ages, I don’t know if they even do it anymore.
So what’s the legal distinction between a volunteer and an intern? Can you maybe not volunteer for a for-profit enterprise?
I’d read it that way. And if people genuinely wish to comply with the law, the DOL has a handy phone number where you can get their opinion. But I’m not a lawyer.
Basically true. You can’t volunteer for a for profit company unless you meet the intern standards set forth by the DOL. If you don’t, it doesn’t matter that you are volunteering – you have to be paid.
A lawsuit?
Probably the other way around: you’re allowed to volunteer, but they’re not allowed to accept.
Yes, you can not work as volunteer for a for-profit company. If you act as an employee and do productuve work, you must be paid at least the minimum wage. The FLSA is very clear on this.
In the case of the $10,000 a year job in Boston, minimum wage would require about $15,000 for a normal 40 hour week. It would seem that a salaried employee need not meet minmium wage requirements. If that is true, the $0 salary is (facetiously) legal.
It would seem that a salaried employee need not meet minmium wage requirements.
One requirement of the salary test is a minimum salary of $455/week, or $23,660/year.
Salaried professionals are exempt from the min wage/OT FLSA rules, but:
“To qualify for exemption, employees generally must meet certain tests regarding their job duties and be paid on a salary basis at not less than $455 per week.”
http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/fairpay/fs17d_professional.pdf
Or just over $23k per year. Which isn’t bad considering you can work them 100 hours a week at that same low rate. Apparently just not low enough for some people.
The salary basis test does not apply to attorneys or doctors. 29 CFR § 541.304(d).
Shit, you’re right. Damn it’s good to be an accountant.
David is right. It appears to be perfectly legal to hire an intern, work him or her like a dog and pay nothing for those services even if they bring in substantial monies to the law practice.
Although it would be far safer from a liability standpoint to pay a salary of a dollar, I suspect.
That’s twice in two days he has been right…..I’m scared, Mal, tell me the Mayans were wrong again
Twice is a coincidence. Three times is a portent and a harbinger.
Agreed. However government agencies are not for-profit companies and you can volunteer for them. My nephew just finished his first year of law school and got a job as a clerk for a Superior Court judge. I asked him how much he was getting paid and he said nothing. Clearly doesn’t qualify as an intern under the DOL rules since the work he is going to do benefits the judge but the DOL rules dont apply to governments
DOJ has unpaid internships (usually for rising 2Ls, meaning that they cannot do the work of an attorney), but otherwise I think it’s illegal to volunteer. That’s why employees not designated as exempt are not allowed to work during a shutdown–the government cannot accept their unpaid labor. I think it’s by statute. The judiciary might have their own set of statutes.
Why study the liberty of contract in a sterile classroom environment, as a theory, when you can go experience it every day in the raw?
Paul Campos doesn’t like the market when the market it telling us that there are too many lawyers.
Would he be so concerned if the income opportunities for doctors were also limited by market forces?
Paul Campos doesn’t like the market when the market it telling us that there are too many lawyers.
And thus VoR proved conclusively that s/he lacks any small basic competence in reading comprehension.
Next up: VoR wonders why Campos thinks BMI is the best health index ever.
That comment *looks* like it’s in English, and the syntax is fine, but I can’t discern any meaning in it whatsoever.
Kinda like “Would Campos be so concerned if there WERE NO RED BICYCLES???”
Quiet, please. My colorless green ideas are trying to sleep furiously.
riverrun, past Eve and Adam’s, from swerve of shore to bend of bay, brings us by a commodius vicus of recirculation back to Howth Castle and Environs.
To be fair Finnegan’s Wake
a) makes more sense
b) is more sonorous
than anything excreted by Voice of Reason on these boards.
No, that I can understand.
It appears to have escaped your notice – and the notice of approximately no-one else, ever – that Campos thinks too many people are being trained as lawyers, that law schools and especially lower-ranked law schools are in effect abusing their students by accepting them and educating them for jobs they will not obtain.
Better trolls, please.
I have been authorized by Reason to offer you any ransom to give back his voice, but only on the condition that you stop soiling it.
Norton Juster tells us that Reason is a chick.
Neal Stephenson disagrees.
“Don’t worry,” says Fisheye. “I’m sure they’ll listen to Reason.”
I always assumed he was referring to the Koch funded think tank and I wouldn’t be able to compete on salary. If not I have an opening (as an intern).
My offer is nothing… not even the laptop you’ll be working on, which I would appreciate it if you would provide personally.
Seriously, they’re offering “desk space”.
And access to a telephone. You left off the telephone.
But you better have your own Blackberry.
and internet service. the next step on this glorious internship is that you pay them for the privilege of working in their “fast paced environment”. seriously, i keep expecting that, as it is the next “logical” progression in this odious practice.
there are many people who would be perfectly happy if slavery were re-instituted as a legal practice in this country. they would be wrong, but not for the obvious reasons (morality, etc). an owner must provide the minimum resources necessary to maintain his/her slave in productive working condition, they have a serious financial investment at risk otherwise. not so with an unpaid intern, or “volunteer”. with them, the risk all shifts to the non-employee. the risk the “employer” bears is, perhaps, whatever cost is entailed in replacing that person, should they expire from want of basic necessities. it’s a win-win for the “employer”.
The British blog Harry’s Place has reported that a company in the UK is already doing this.
Could a “law firm” operate like a nail salon, renting desk space (and infrastructure) to the credentialed service providers who work there, and taking a commission on their sales?
The professional liability insurance issues would be rather interesting, I imagine.
Assuming the “law firm” in your hypothetical is a legally separate entity from the attorneys, then off the top of my head I think state bar rules against “fee splitting” would prohibit that type of arrangement. That said, there are certainly “virtual officing” facilities that specifically market themselves to attorneys, although they do not hold themselves out as law firms and I think their employees have to be very careful about how they represent themselves to their tenants’ clients.
yeah, I’ve known single practitioners who bind together and hire office staff, etc. No client sharing or fee splitting
This is a fairly common practice, known as an “eat what you kill” arrangement. A small firm or a solo takes on an “associate” whose compensation consists of a percentage of whatever the person bills (or more accurately collects).
It’s called “realization.” All law firms depend on it.
After reading Intern Nation I thought about starting a business for the sole purpose of providing unpaid “interships” to students. Unlike the “real” interships, I wouldn’t have them do work for me, rather I’d give them reading assignments. Then at the end of the intership I’d give them a letter of recommendation, a reference, and offer a donation basket.
The poor students would get a line on their resume and I might make a buck or two from the donations.
In the near future, only the children of the rich will be able to work as lawyers because only the rich could rely on their parents to support them in their early part of their careers. This might quickly spread to other suggestions. This is really worse than apprenticeship. At least masters had to give their apprentices room and board.
Why is it that in all these cases of superfluous lawyers that the solution is supplying legal services ( fair employment labor standards in this case) to other superfluous lawyers? Last time it was bankruptcy and garnishment judgements for indebted law school grads.
Unless there is a compelling state interest, two sophisticated parties should have the right to contract. I’m not sure Law School graduates need protection.
The graduates can decide for themselves if the deal is worth it. Its not our job to nanny them.
The only scenario where there might be a compelling state interest is, ironically, if the deal is actually worth it. In that case, we are creating a society where children of the wealthy have yet another leg up.
But this is a “small NY Law Firm with offices in Maspeth, Queens & Westchester.” Ain’t no leg up interning there.
I would worry if a big powerful and prestigious law firm were doing this, like Dewey & LeBoeuf.
Manju says:
“Unless there is a compelling state interest, two sophisticated parties should have the right to contract.”
Has anybody who’s not a maggot invoked this in these sort of discussions?
Not since West Coast Hotel v. Parrish, not in serious company.
Good joke.
I’m not sure Law School graduates need protection.
The graduates can decide for themselves if the deal is worth it. Its not our job to nanny them.
Manju,
You are exactly correct. These people only talk about free markets.
And remember that they are in a field that has enjoyed decades upon decades of privilege and prestige.
They believe they are entitled .
Sadly, this is becoming normal practice all over. Newly graduated teachers are expected to volunteer their time to the school board in order to “get their foot in the door”. And that only gets them onto the supply teacher list.
I am pretty sickened by the hoops that the unemployed are being forced to jump through to even get a sniff of a “permanent” job.