My Crap For Your Manure
According to Ken Rosenthal of Fox Sports , the Mets are talking to the Royals about a trade that could involve Oliver Perez, Luis Castillo, and Jeff Francoeur, as well as Gil Meche, Kyle Farnsworth, and Jose Guillen.
I don’t know what the record is for “most useless players signed to inexplicably expensive contracts exchanged in one trade” is, but if it goes through this one would have to rank up there…
The result is the Mets get Meche, which improves their pitching enough to just miss the playoffs, instead of missing by a wide margin.
The pity is it guarantees Zack G. never pitches against Frenchy, so his K total for the year is artificially reduced.
I wouldn’t even do that far. Is there any reason to believe that Meche will pitch well? He’s been overworked and hurt, and this year his performance has been a dead ringer for that of…Oliver Perez. Although getting a guy with a 6.66 ERA would be poignant…
I don’t believe this for a second. Castillo walks way too much to interest KC.
I’m with Rob. However, I’d love to see how Guillen reacts to being benched. At the very least, we can have dugout fisticuffs.
Probably, although he is kind of the 2B equivalent of Jason Kendall…
“Kind of the 2B equivalent of Jason kendall” leaves me mystified. Jose Guillen is an OF, isn’t he? Carlos has played some 2B lately, but he’s on the DL, and he’s a very different character than Jose.
I think this is in reference to Luis Castillo, who walks too much to be a Royal, but is kind of like Kendall (now a Royal).
Getting Meche would have had value for the Mets before the Royals destroyed his arm through consecutive starts of 110, 115, and 132 pitches last year. He’s never been the same pitcher since then.
I can’t even get my snark on. The Royals seem intent on destroying my will to live.
I think Meche’s arm will come back in another 5 years, right when the Mets will contend again
That’s a generous prediction (for the Mets, not for Meche).
Wow, I haven’t heard of a trade with so many really bad players in a long, long time. Ollie is worthless. Not only is he an awful pitcher, but why would anyone take that horrible contract, especially the Royals? I hear they’ve got some good talent in the minors. Jesus, save your money, wait for the kids to come up, and see if you can get someone decent then. Oliver Perez??!?!?!
Farnsworth, though isn’t really horrible. But he’s got the straightest fastball I’ve ever seen.
Castillo can still take a walk. But, that’s also what he does when he plays defense – walk.
As a Yankee fan, I really miss those great Royals teams of the ’70′s and 80′s. Man, I loved hating them, and hated admitting I loved the way they played. I’m glad Herzog got in the HOF.
Really. man – this is depressing news for Mets fans. “Crap for manure”?? Quite right, but a considerable comedown from the classic “Mets trade rumors” stories from most mid-summers, which at least give the fanbase some glimmer of hope (normally dashed by September).
I mean: usually, the late-July trade gossip out of Queens revolves around some some big-bucks deal for a big-numbers player (or players) whose normal trajectory with the Mets will be:
1. Press conference with Jeff Wilpon and Mike Bloomberg.
2. Five games at Citi Field
3. Lenox Hill Hospital
4. DL
5. Bank to cash (minimum) six-figure check.
The Mets are hopeless.
Pay Bobby Bonilla his money!
Bah, typical East Coast bias. There was a worse trade made by the Angels this weekend. They got Dan Haren and his 86-70 record for the only Angels left handed starter, Joe Saunders and three minor leaguers: Rafael Rodriguez, 19-year old Patrick Corbin (13-3 in class A) who they were high on and Tyler Skaggs, who they talked about being a starter in about 3 years.
The Angels also got Albert Collaspo from the Royals last week and he’s promptly gone in to a hitting slump.
So, the Angels let Vlad go and he’s having a typically big year > don’t replace his bat during the winter and during the season get a minor upgrade in the starting pitching at the price of depleting minor league pitching prospects and a lateral move for a guy who is playing out of position (Collaspo).
Aaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhh.
They got Dan Haren and his 86-70 record
And ERA+s of 138, 139,146 the previous three years, and exceptional K/W ratios even this year when he’s been pitching in bad luck. He’s an outstanding pitcher when healthy, and comparing him to the likes of Perez or a washed-up Gil Meche is silly.
pitching in bad luck = weasle words.
when healthy = more weasle words.
ERA+s of 138, 139,146 the previous three years
You might as well be talking Sumatrian for all the good that does me.
exceptional K/W ratios
Again with the Sumatrian.
I said East Coast bias because I’m pretty damn certain that you haven’t watched every single Angels game for the last five years like I have (thank you FF function on my DVR and being on the west coast so that east/midwest games are done by 7:30 or so). I’ve been a fan since 1967, I *know* the Angels, I *know* what they’re thinking, I *know* how players are used here, you don’t, full stop.
I saw Dan Haren pitch for 3 years for the A’s and he was a good, not great, pitcher. So he goes off to AZ, has a good year and ? All the people creaming their pants over his IP? Not gonna matter one damn bit because Mike Scioscia has a plan and only a complete nuclear winter is going to change him: starters go 6, *maybe* 7 if they’re pitching lights out, but for the most part it’s 6 innings and then it’s 3 innings of biting your nails, hoping the bullpen doesn’t blow another 4 run lead. Ask John Lackey how that worked out in the end, I believe he called Scioscia an “asshole” when he got pulled in his last game as an Angel and the bullpen promptly gave up 6 runs.
Maybe Joe Saunders was good for two years only and in two years, he’ll be pumping gas at the 76 station down the street from Anaheim Stadium, I don’t really care, he was home-grown and nice to us fans, so I wish him well in his future endeavors.
I’m just bemused as all fuck at the sheer *hysteria* that has greeted this trade online, like this is Lou Brock for Ernie Broglio II. I get it, the Yankees wanted him, so he’s obviously The Most Important Player At The Trade Deadline as a result, but the full value of the trade won’t be known until the three prospects’ careers have panned out. How come no one mentions them? It’s all Dan bloody Haren and his “upsides”.
Meanwhile, the Angels are totally delusional. They actually think they’re contenders for the World Series this year! It’s possible that both Texas and Oakland will collapse but that’s the only way they’ll get in.
They’re a team of DH’s, old people on the downsides of their careers and exactly three position players that I can see being with them in 5 years: Eric Aybar, Howie Kendrick (if they don’t fuck his swing up again) and Kendry Morales (if he comes back completely from that absurd broken leg). They haven’t addressed their biggest need: a solid, young bat to anchor the lineup. They’ve been saying this is their top priority for years and they haven’t done a damn thing about it, so pardon me for yawning over the acquisition of ANOTHER over 30 pitcher. As Elton John once crooned “You know I’ve seen that movie too”.
Wouldn’t surprise me if we Angels fans are in for another 70′s/90′s-esque stretch of mediocrity very soon.
Ah, who am I kidding? WE GOT DAN HAREN! OMFG!
So, essentially, you’re saying, “I don’t understand the argument you’re making (ERA+; K/W), so you must be wrong.”
In short, Haren was one of the best pitchers in the league the past few years (his ERA was 46% below the average last year, which is what ERA+ tells us) and research has shown that pitchers who have maintained their “peripherals” (Walk rate, strikeout rate, homerun rate) but are giving up an abnormally high number of hits tend to rebound to what they have done before. (Hence, the importance of Haren’s K/W ratio, i.e. ratio of strikeouts to walks.)
You’re right that we can’t completely evaluate the trade until many years from now, but we do have some sense for how good the prospects will likely be based upon their performance in the minors and the opinions of scouts. Those two things suggest that the only player with significant upside is Skaggs.
You want to believe that acquiring someone who had been amongst the best pitchers in baseball the past few years and signed to below-market rates for two more years because he’s having a merely mediocre year and Saunders is a nice guy, that’s fine. But teams that operate on that basis (valuing very near-term performance rather than the accumulated body of work; and worrying about clubhouse factors and fan favorites rather than performance) tend to stagnate.
Are the Angels with Haren likely to catch the Rangers with Lee? Probably not, though the odds go up with Haren rather than Saunders. But Haren will be around for 2 or 3, if they pick up the option, more years, so he also increases the odds of the Angels winning once Lee has left the Rangers. Yeah, they need another hitter, but they gave up none of their best prospects, so they still have the bullets to get one, and they can get one in the offseason to take advantage of Haren’s next few years in Anaheim.
So, essentially, you’re saying, “I don’t understand the argument you’re making (ERA+; K/W), so you must be wrong.”
My sarcasm didn’t come through, obviously. I know what all that sabremetrics crap is, I just don’t think Bill James is a secular god, that’s all. I blame Garret Anderson.
I loved GA when he was with the Angels, easily one of the 2 or 3 best position players in club history. But I’d seen him play since high school and even then he had a well-deserved reputation for being a loafer in the field. If I had $5 for every ball he jogged towards –jogged, not ran– that fell 2 feet in front of him, I’d be living in a mansion in southern England by now. He actually started getting booed here the last few years for his shitty, lackadaisical fielding and his pathetic 3-hop arm.
So, at some point, GA gets it in his head that he’s a CF, threatens to leave if they don’t put him in CF. They put GA in CF, he predictably sucked and they come to their senses and make him play LF again.
So, this Mets fan from Lawn Guyland and I are on a baseball board and he insists that GA is one of the best OF in baseball. I mock and scorn him, but dammit! he has the sabremetric stats to back him up bitches! I ask him if he’s ever seen GA play, of course he hadn’t, he didn’t really follow the AL. Not all sabremetrics people are like him, but I’ll *always* trust my eyes over some guy 3,000 miles away looking at stats.
But teams that operate on that basis (valuing very near-term performance rather than the accumulated body of work; and worrying about clubhouse factors
See, once again, if you’re not an Angels fan, you likely don’t know that history and why it informs how they operate today.
Jim Edmonds drove them crazy with his apparent indifference to winning and playing hard. End of one season, 1998 I think, the Angels are still in the division race but are fading late in the season. Edmonds goes up to the plate and starts joking with the other team’s catcher. This infuriates dudes like Erstad and Dave Hollins, they demand something be done.
The team does nothing, Edmonds is even more of a clubhouse toxin in 1999 when he refuses early season surgery but has it done in later in the season after missing most of the season and Terry Collins is fired because his clubhouse is in revolt.
Now, sabremetrics people would downplay that stuff, but I’ve seen the Angels implode enough times to put more stock in team chemistry and managerial toughness than trivia like WHIP.
By the way, oh how I laughed as Mike “Fire Him Now” Scioscia’s system blew up in his face again last night. Jered Weaver pitches his mandated 7, leaves trailing 2-1, then the bullpen promptly gives up runs in the 8th & 9th and the feeble offense can’t overcome that.
Put a fork in the Angels.
You do realize that almost every sabermetric analysis would call Garrett Anderson one of the most overrated players of his generation? The guy you were talking to might have said otherwise, but your opinion and the Bill James’ crowd’s opinion on Anderson was actually the same. (On the other hand, most sabremetricians would argue that Erstad was also overrated while Edmonds was great, so you’d part company with them on that point.)
And maybe I’m missing sarcasm again, but you wanted to fire Scioscia? You do realize he’s won you the world series, taken you to the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years, and only twice finished below .500? You’re acting as if his “system” is, first, out of the ordinary, and, second, unsuccessful.
And maybe I’m missing sarcasm again, but you wanted to fire Scioscia?
No, my friend that I go to games with want –no -ed at the end– to fire Scioscia.
You do realize he’s won you the world series
That was 8 years ago, with a team that had a core that was in place when he got there. What have you done for me lately, fat boy?
taken you to the playoffs 5 of the last 6 years
I’d be more impressed if they weren’t in arguably the worst division in baseball.
What good is that if you’re going to get bounced in the first round most of the time? What good is having the best record in baseball (2008) and then flaming out of the playoffs in the first round because down 2-1 in a best of 5, in game 4, with the go-ahead run at third in the 9th inning and one out, you decide that’s a good time for a suicide squeeze, even though even the announcers knew it was coming?
Managers can stay too long at ballclubs and I certainly don’t want a Bobby Cox situation here. They had the chance to groom Bud Black but he saw the writing on the wall and left (and the pitching staff hasn’t been the same since either).
Shit, I’ve become a Dodgers fan, spoiled by a tiny bit of success and thinking it’s a birthright. :-)
You’re acting as if his “system” is, first, out of the ordinary
Nah, I know it’s common but Scioscia sticks with it despite……
and, second, unsuccessful.
Scot Shields has sucked for the last 3 seasons. The 7th inning guys now barely belong in the major leagues. Brian Fuentes is nowhere near Percival or Frankie as a closer. But Scioscia still sticks with the formula. The scenario I mentioned previously re: pulling Weaver, is common.
Anyways, I LOL when I saw this in the Times today:
Those eight American League West championship flags flying above the outfield wall in Angel Stadium could have some company soon, only the next one raised might be white.
Three days after acquiring pitcher Dan Haren for an expected playoff push and three days before the nonwaiver trade deadline, the Angels might have gone from buyers to sellers on a potentially landscape-altering Wednesday afternoon. [snip]
General Manager Tony Reagins acknowledged he would be open to trading veterans for prospects before Saturday’s deadline.
“We would consider any move that would strengthen us, whether it’s for this year or in future years,” said Reagins, who met with Manager Mike Scioscia and his coaches for 45 minutes afterward. “You have to look at the deal and make a determination.”
Among the veterans who might have value to contending teams are right fielder Bobby Abreu, left-handed reliever Brian Fuentes, designated hitter Hideki Matsui and infielder Maicer Izturis.
So, in the space of less than a week, the Angels go from saying getting Haren puts them in position to contend for the WS title > fuck it, 2010′s a wash, let’s have a fire sale. Funny that they care about prospects NOW.
Come back Bill Stoneman, please?
Did you just call Dan Haren a minor upgrade over Joe Saunders?
Go sit in the corner and think about what you’ve done mister.
The best comment I’ve seen regarding this rumor:
This is addition through subtraction. For instance, I’d trade Ollie Perez for a Metrocard at this point. I’m sure the Mets would eat some of the money involved though. This does sound like a trade brought up on WFAN at about 2A.M., maybe after Ollie Perez again is tossed out there late in an extra inning game out West.
Well, Scott, with Meche’s injury, I guess the Mets are spared. At least until the offseason.